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Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?

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Posted on May 26, 2015 at 13:05:19
ketchup
Audiophile

Posts: 622
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 29, 2004
 I'm playing around with my Magnepan 3.6 placement and pretty much everywhere I've tried them certain images sound like they are coming directly from the speakers. For instance, any instruments between the speakers are usually coming from behind the plane of the speakers and can be anywhere from left of center, center, or right of center. Any instruments further left or further right sound like they are coming directly from the speakers. Very rarely a cymbal or something sounds like it is coming from far left or far right but well in front of the plane of the speakers. I guess you could say that the soundstage is "U" shaped. How can I get these far left and far right panned instruments to sound like they are not coming directly out of the speakers? It would be nice if they were also behind the plane of the speakers, more in line with the other instruments that are between the speakers. Is this a room acoustics problem? How do I fix it? If it weren't for these far left and far right images being stuck to the speakers, the speakers would truly disappear.

The system is in a 13.5' x 18.5' room. Right now I'm experimenting with the Limage setup. The speakers are 7' from the front wall and about a foot from the sidewalls and the tweeters are on the inside. There is no toe in. I sit about 2' from the rear wall.

 

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RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 13:26:19
Davey
 That's not an uncommon occurrence with many speakers. Much depends upon your program material and how much ambiance is encoded. If it's just multi-miked studio recordings where the engineer has panned a certain instrument/voice all the way left/right, then that "image" will usually come forward to the plane of that speaker. Blended mixes will/should move behind the speakers plane......sometimes well behind.

Generally, you should move the speakers into the room more with this issue, but since you already have them 7' from the front wall..... :)

Dave.

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 14:13:01
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Yeah, I have complained about the horse shoe or u shaped phenomena on this forum before too. As Davey mentioned it is most apparent on hard panned, far left or right miking. Early stereo was notorious for this.

Here is my experience with the issue. The further out from the FW, the more apparent it is to me because the depth of the horse shoe is accentuated. If the speaker is within five feet or so of the FW, I can pretty much eliminate it by reducing toe in ( or accentuating it) so the speaker doesn't radiate as much direct energy, and the front wall bounce averages with the direct sound, in effect giving the illusion that the hard panned sound comes from behind the panel (I assume the mind averages the two sound sources and places it between the wall and speaker). As the speaker gets further away from the FW, though, the averaging effect seems to disappear -- or require even more toe out -- I assume because we process the more delayed sound as a reflection.

As with everything there are tradeoffs and I am not sure getting rid of the effect is always worth it. BTW, when I experimented once with combining two Maggie's at the same time, firing the other pair out, I was able to get rid of the effect by shooting it three or four feet out to the side of the speaker. Again, cool experiment but not overall pleasing.

 

I would tell you but then they'd shoot me in the forum,.., posted on May 26, 2015 at 14:25:31
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 LOL! I am at work. I'll check when I get home in case someone has not covered it yet.

 

Furthermore: Ketchup & Swamis Cat: Tell me recording examples, posted on May 26, 2015 at 14:41:27
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 If you list a few of the recordings that exhibit the worst behaviors, some of us may be able to check.

Since my wife's out of town, I certainly can try it this evening (Eastern). If I am lucky enough to have some of the same pieces, I can draw their imaging as displayed here.

 

A thought experiment., posted on May 26, 2015 at 16:46:53
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
 Suppose you had a mono recording. And you played it only through the left channel.

Where would you expect the apparent soundstage localization to be?

And if you had a stereo recording but some of the program material was 'mono left'?

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 16:54:18
George6
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Joined: November 18, 2012
 I too had a U shaped soundstage. Here is a message I posted in an earlier thread on diffusors.

Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers.
Without these diffusors the soundstage was U-shaped, with certain instruments coming directly from the speakers, and central voices coming from the wall behind the speakers.
With the diffusors, the soundstage is wider, stretched evenly slightly behind the speakers. The voices and instruments are better defined, and the acoustics of the recording space are more perceptible.
Highly recommended.

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 19:18:55
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 Hi George; can you please describe how many panels you're using behind each 1.6? thanks









 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 26, 2015 at 19:39:05
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Can you tell me where you placed the T'Fusors?

Directly behind the panels or ...?


Thanks,

Andy

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 19:47:28
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 It all looks good except for the toe-in. You have to get the panels to aim just in front or just behind your listening position.

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:27:12
johnvb
Audiophile

Posts: 495
Joined: October 26, 2011
 I also found diffusion on the front wall helped with this issue when I was running MMGs in a 12 x 15 room. One QRD panel on each "mirror image" spot behind each speaker (as seen from the listening chair), and then an inverted QRD between the two, in the center of the wall.

But one has to be careful with too much diffusion in a small room like mine, as it can cause what acoustic techs call "ringing". I reached that point by adding poly diffusers on the side wall reflection points, in addition to the above. Sounded great at first but eventually got tiring. And why I ultimately went to two way bookshelf monitors in the room, and lots of absorption and bass traps ( but still kept the two QRDs behind the speakers). No U shaped sound stage now.

I will agree that some recordings are just bad about the sound sitting on the speaker, so it is sometimes unavoidable. To the OP, you might want to consider side wall absorption and see what that does.

 

RE: Certain images "stuck" to speakers. What is wrong?, posted on May 27, 2015 at 08:21:59
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 We had a discussion of this problem with Mark Man and he used the fake ficus between the speakers and the rack behind them which was the source of the early reflections that often cause the center images to recede, thus resulting in that U shaped soundstage. This is probably the best solution so long as there is something behind the speaker. If it is the bare wall, then diffusors should do the job as well or better.

Another solution (that I use) is to attach a wing (I use polystyrene boards) perpendicular to the speaker on the inside and stretching behind the speaker, make sure it does not jut forward of the tweeter.12" wide wing should do. You may need to tweak the angle of the wing some. This should move the center images forward towards the plane of the speaker. Images of large resonant instruments (piano harp contrabass) should fill out to realistic dimensions.

 

RE: try 45 degree toe in... , posted on May 27, 2015 at 09:04:42
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 Tweeters in!
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 27, 2015 at 12:40:51
George6
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Joined: November 18, 2012
 Thanks for the questions, Andy and Green Lantern. Am going to try and post some photos later, but here is the general setup.

Started with one T'fusor on the front wall behind each speaker, with the bottom of the T'fusor about 3' above the floor.
The speakers are toed in a bit, tweeters out, and the tweeter side of the speaker is 4' out from the front wall.

The centers of the T-fusors are perpendicular to the plane of the speakers but, because of the toe in, when you look down the room parallel to a side wall, most of the T'fusor is visible to the outside of the speaker.

This had the immediate effect of broadening the soundstage and flattening it quite a bit. But in some recordings, an instrument which was closely miked and panned still came directly from the speaker, though less so than without the T'fusors.

Recently added two more T'fusors, for the time being resting on the floor.
At first I put them directly under the original T'fusors, then gradually moved them along the wall, bit by bit, towards the center of the room, until the sound suddenly improved; at this point they were peaking out from behind the speakers about as much as the originals, only on the bass side of the speakers rather than the tweeter side.

This gave me a remarkably deep, wide and defined soundstage. Will post some pics soon - meanwhile, hope my explanation has been of use.

 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 27, 2015 at 13:46:07
George6
Audiophile

Posts: 182
Joined: November 18, 2012



This should give a better idea of the T'fusor positioning. They look terrible, but can be painted to match a wall once the final placement has been decided.

 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 27, 2015 at 15:40:43
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Neat! (Worry not about looks...sound is what matters. A photo of my place right now could get me a divorce, but she's traveling this week... :-))

George, knowing the behaviors of the Halo A-21, I would expect it to help grandly with imaging at your place. It has done so when visiting my Maggies at my home and does it also with the box speakers it lives with. The Maggies make the best out of it, of course. That's why I have 2 Parasounds (older design) driving my Maggies.

Which makes me wonder, could you and I compare notes on soundstage, imaging, etc., based on the very same music? For this, I would email you a list of the music albums already moved to my PC. I have far more recordings yet to be moved in but I would not be surprised if you have some of these. This way you can choose an album or a few that you may already have at your place. Once chosen, we can listen to specific segments at our ends, and compare notes.

Depending on what we learn, we can share observations with the gang here. Send me an email if this looks practical to you.

 

Thanks. nt, posted on May 27, 2015 at 20:32:28
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12550
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

Marvelous , posted on May 27, 2015 at 22:13:27
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 As they say; a picture's worth a thousand words;)

Your Maggies, room, and equipment looks great; I'm sure the sound is pure bliss.

Again great room; thanks for sharing!









 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 28, 2015 at 12:43:20
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 I think this will be very useful, especially now that streaming means that most music is available to everyone to compare. Let us know how it goes, or better yet publish the dialogue in a post.

I still move my speakers back and forth between various taped favorite spots, and the soundstage can change, in some cases dramatically, depending upon placement.

 

Inside, posted on May 28, 2015 at 12:54:19
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 1455
Joined: March 4, 2002
 Are you tweeters inside or out? When you say put the wings inside, I presume that your ribbons are inside too? Mine are.

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 28, 2015 at 13:09:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 It would have been nicer to use a fake ficus but they take up too much space and I need to get around behind the speakers.

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 28, 2015 at 13:46:58
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 LOL, Satie, and here someone suggested that the ficus tree is kind of an urban myth, which I don't think but never tried myself. While I don't need the diffusion, other less substantial objects placed experimentally behind my Maggies managed to "do something" in the past. So, the ficus trees have to have an influence! Sure, good/bad or strong/subtle, may depend -- but they seem to be a valid "resource". At least for those with good hearing, it seems.

 

RE: "Using T'Fusors on wall behind 1.6 speakers." ..., posted on May 28, 2015 at 14:20:08
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Swamis Cat, you are correct; and I never thought of it in this manner!

We'll see how it goes. I sure hope we find enough goodies that we can share promptly. It is a bit of a challenge for more reasons than I have time to mention, but it is worth the effort.

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 28, 2015 at 19:34:11
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 As a more convenient method of putting in diffusion for the back wave in front of the rack etc. I wanted to put in fake garlands hung from the ceiling so I can pass between them. But the ones I was picking up at Michael's were catching in my clothes and hair so I just gave up and left them there.

Before I put the wings up the center image was depressed by appx the distance from the rack to the plane of the speakers. Putting up the wings pulled the center image to the plane of the speakers, same as the fake ficus (actually a big fake flower arrangement the wife made)

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 28, 2015 at 20:33:52
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 LOL, Satie, I did not realize that you were winging things up. I'll add a comment or two on that when I send you an email that I began and then halted. (I am waiting for a reply from a vendor on the bass woofer project stuff).

Michael's huh? Good audio resource, along with JoAnn. The latter supplied quite a few things for my audio projects in recent times. In fact, the stuffing for my woofers came from there. Perfect fit, density...and on sale! Never thought I'd be looking up coupons for something. Damn hobby of ours!

I wonder what Andy gets for such outlets, down under. (LOL, I can almost hear him calling us sissy...or whatever the term is there :-))

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 29, 2015 at 08:47:49
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I think the old partitions of Home Depot machismo vs Michael's and JoAnn sissies is pretty much old hat and have nothing to do with who we actually are. These just limit our freedom to do what we need and want out of fear of labels both self imposed and socially inflicted. Fortunately millenials and many gen X'ers have let go of that and we relics can learn a thing or two from them.

It is nicer to just go where you need to get materials without discomfort.

 

RE: Yes Inside, posted on May 29, 2015 at 09:19:03
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 "We relics"!? I'll have you know, just because I once owned a pair of bell bottoms...LOL.

 

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