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Room - blank slate for 20.7

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Posted on May 25, 2015 at 07:16:11
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Hi all.

I have posted questions on room creation on other forums but you guys here are the definitive experts. Here is my goal -- to create a room for the 20.7. Now I have a plan where they might work so let me give the options as I have a blank slate.

Room size max 18x30. I could decrease it if needed. The problem: 13' from the long wall I have 2 posts spaced 10' apart. So I have a post essentially 10' off the front wall and 10' off the back wall. Since it is a blank slate - what do you think of placing them 8' off the long wall .... Putting the seated position between the poles and opening up the wall behind the seated position (ie creating a 12' opening into another room measuring about 18x20?

So my option is A) go long wall and create a 12' opening behind the seated position or B) create a typical short wall config but having to bring the 20.7 in front of the post (a typical basement post that is 10' off front wall and 13' from side wall. My concern is if I place it behind the post then I am wrestling with the visual as well as possible sonic issues. If I go in front of the post - I have to come into the room a min of 12' w a post in the rear wave of one speaker.

Sorry for the wordiness. I appreciate all of your input. Tim

 

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RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 09:14:04
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 If you can draw a picture of the space then we can pick up on how to distribute your walls. But here are some things to consider.

If it is possible to keep the posts in the rear of the speakers then that is very good since the posts will not be in the way meaningfully.

It is important to avoid particular relationships of W to L.
Avoid 1:1, 1.5:1 and 2:1

There are desirable relationships based on the golden ratio.
In particular 1:1.62 or 1:1.31

Note that your raw space is appx. 1:1.62 so doing nothing to subdivide it is an option, though such a large space may require a subwoofer for the 20.7.

You want to design so as to have at least 9' behind the speakers to allow for full delay of the rear wave reflection by the 15 ms threshold beyond which little (but still some) improvement to depth rendition is obtained.

If you have the Limage setup in mind then you must keep away from the "bad" ratios. For this setup it is likely you could have both posts behind the speakers where they are unlikely to do any harm.

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 09:49:48
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Hi Satie. Thanks for the reply. I know a diagram would help. At this point I am inept. The posts travel down the long wall. If I put them on the short wall one post would be behind a speaker and no post would be behind the other. The additional post would just be next to the couch w about 8-10' of room to the back wall. Any comment on my long wall option?

I could make the room smaller as well. Not interested in subs but don't want to create a space that needs them either!!

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 10:20:05
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Wow, those columns sure are in the wrong place!

Obviously the only way to know for sure is to experiment. The good thing about using the long wall as FW, is that you still have pretty good depth. But I suspect you would prefer using short wall as FW if practical.

I would certainly try setting them up about six feet out from FW with a near field seating arrangement around twelve or thirteen feet from FW. This will put the column about five feet from you and about four feet ahead of the speaker. Perhaps you could treat it with absorption material to reduce reflections.

I agree with you that if the column is behind the speaker that it will be visually and possibly acoustically bothersome. Maybe it is just me, but the visual thing is really important when I listen to music.

Good luck.

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 10:44:49
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Thanks. Actually if long wall placement works the posts are on the left and right side of the couch out of visual sight and they become less of an issue. In fact the room seems more integrated as I can open the wall behind me (12' opening) to another room. This gives me space behind me and am hoping avoids reflections. With this setup the speakers could be 8' at most from front wall. Seated position would be 10' away. The second room would be behind me. Now - in this scenario I punch the 12' opening in the 30' back wall so I still have 9' of back wall on each side of the opening. I am hoping the 12' opening would solve any back wall reflection issues... Comments on this if clear...

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 12:25:20
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 So the posts are 13' from one long wall and 10' and 20' from the one short wall?

Is your space currently usable for experimentation? Can you get the speakers and amps and a source into it and try out positions to see how things will work or is it too unfinished?

I am thinking that for a Limage setup in the full space you will have the speakers pulled 12' into the room (so ahead of one post, and the listening seat would probably end up being appx. 3-4' from the back wall. That would leave one post 6' in front of the speaker about 3' from the center line and that might be in the direct line - if so then you would need to adjust the seating to have the post sit outside the direct path from the speaker to the seat. (means sitting closer.

Since the room is large you will want to get the best wall loading and will have the 20.7 very close to the sidewalls low single inches without toe in - or if toe in is needed you may have to resort to wings to fill the space between the edge of the speaker and the sidewall to reduce dipole cancellation of deep bass.

Long wall arrangement will be quite easy as you will have the speakers about 9-10' apart and about 7-8' from the sidewalls. The plane of the speakers would likely be 1/3 or 6' from the front wall and your seating will likely end up between the posts with them being at the plane a couple of feet in front of you. They will likely have a minor acoustic effect which you can control with absorptive material on them. They should not end up being in the path from speaker to listening seat,

I would not open the back of the room under these circumstances and with a firm refusal to use subwoofers since that would increase the space that you need to load with bass even further.

Needless to say, I don't think you would benefit much from reducing the space by subdivision.

 

Sorry, like this?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 12:35:09
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002



Excuse the dark background, AutoCAD quick sketch...

 

RE: Sorry, like this?, posted on May 25, 2015 at 13:06:18
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 LOL... awesome Grant.... yes... like that... Yes.... if that external width reads 18' that is it.... As you can see they are in a nasty place... and I have been staring at it for months with my wife asking me 'what are you doing down there!!!'.... :)

I could hide them in a wall... which gives me only a 13' wide room.... or I could try to work around them... and increase the width of the room up to 18'.....

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 13:15:27
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 So Satie... are you saying ... you wouldn't recommend putting a 12' opening on the back wall behind me - if I positioned the speakers on the long wall? I would guess I would be sitting about 2' off the back wall in this scenario - w the 20.7 about 6' off the front wall?

And re: your other question.. yes... everything is too raw... no electric etc.... down there..... so I can't really get a good idea....

 

Fine, no more black/dim backgrounds. :), posted on May 25, 2015 at 13:39:22
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002



Even though I generally prefer short wall placement; how's about this?

 

RE: Fine, no more black/dim backgrounds. :), posted on May 25, 2015 at 14:12:27
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Hmm. I didn't think of them against the posts like that. I was thinking couch between the posts w speakers on opposite wall. Basically very front of couch close to the poles w seated position about 2.5-3' behind.

 

That's another option., posted on May 25, 2015 at 14:37:48
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Visually and thus mentally (more than anything), I know the posts would bother me there however. If the speakers at 10' apart work for you, then the edges of the panels at the posts would have little to no interference. The post would be at the null spot of the panel. Just my thoughts; likely what I would do.
If at all possible I would place the speakers down there, a chair, and experiment both ways.
My wife would be asking the same thing so long as the rest of the house were done (unlike what happened in our house, my room was done pretty much first). :)

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 25, 2015 at 15:18:18
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 So lets suppose I were to put them either by the posts or opposite that position. There is no advantage to eliminating the wall between the posts or slightly larger to gain either space behind the speakers or space behind the sitting position? I would think there would be?

 

RE: Room - blank slate for 20.7, posted on May 25, 2015 at 16:16:24
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 It is just a matter of how the bass works out for you.

I am a bass hound, call me a planar JBL man. I loaded and placed my Tympani bass to get as much of it as possible. (wall loading, tangential mode excitation, bracing, 2kw/ch) There is plenty of bass down to 16hz and -3db appx at 20hz.

Your bass needs may differ. but loading a 600sft space is not that easy, and opening it further into additional volumes makes the space that much more difficult to load with planar bass. So the question is how deep and how loud do you need the bass to be so that you can get a satisfying rendition of your music. If you were open to eventually filling in a (possibly) deficient bass with subs then I would wholeheartedly endorse opening up the space behind the seat. It has many benefits in imaging and placement flexibility.
In particular placing the speakers themselves in the opening with the walls acting as wings is a very effective way to get good deeper and cleaner bass without imaging compromising reflections off nearby sidewalls.

 

Bookcases rather than walls, posted on May 25, 2015 at 16:36:01
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 In your circumstances with those pesky posts I would consider using loaded bookcases instead of permanent walls.

Grant's placement solution is very elegant and I would simply place the bookcase walls to the side of the posts and let the speakers fire their back wave into the left over space. That would be particularly nice if you had that opened up to the rest of the space beyond the internal 18' wall so as to avoid short resonant modes in that narrow leftover space. .

 

RE: Bookcases rather than walls, posted on May 25, 2015 at 16:59:51
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Wow. Nice. I want to thank you guys of course. This gives me lots of options. But my biggest question going into this was whether to open up that space. And I do have a Martin Logan descent if needed. I just love that planar bass. Thanks Tim

 

RE: Bookcases rather than walls, posted on May 25, 2015 at 18:40:22
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Satie. Lets assume grants suggestion...Just for clarity - are you saying to create book shelves - make them go to ceiling... Put a lot of books in them ... And essentially put them right next to the posts and speaker - which would be at the 13' mark in the room w opening to secondary area between speakers? Seating position about 3' off back wall?
And yes I am a depth imaging freak. ( but yeah I like bass but heard 20.7 without subs and loved them in about a 16x22 room. )

And btw - I never thought of inverting it this way.

Timm. (Formerly tim_meyers...got my lost moniker back!!) :)

 

RE: Bookcases rather than walls, posted on May 25, 2015 at 19:59:05
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I was thinking Sauder or Ikea style MDF bookcases, they are a bit over 6' tall (at least they used to be) and rather cheap. You don't need to plug the space bettween the top of the bookcases and the ceiling, That allows you to have a broader array of resonance freq and hence less of each.

Though I think Grant's idea is elegant, my preference for your space is to make it compatible with a Limage setup with a 1.62 ratio as the posts allow without them getting in the way. a 15 or 16 ft wide room and 24 or 26' long respectively would have you place the speaker in front of one post while the other ends up a few feet outside the path from the speaker to the listening seat, which would be 3-5 ft from the back wall.

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 26, 2015 at 08:07:44
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Between the posts as in at the wall behind (very bottom of my drawing)? There's no wall actually between the posts I assume.
If the spot behind the posts can be removed symmetrically maybe, but now to some degree you're playing with the unknown.

 

RE: Sorry, like this?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 08:23:46
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 Nice room for Maggies!

I'd set them outside the posts - toed in a bit more than Grant's picture.

If posts are metal you can make them more attractive many ways.

Diffusion behind. I'd like that much space.

Floor and Ceiling options? again look for something to aid diffusion on the ceiling - if you have the height. carpet on a heavy pad on concrete is likely all the absorption you need. Make sure wall material is glued and screwed to studs,
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 26, 2015 at 08:57:21
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Hi Grant... yes... I understand the line between the posts is the 13' mark and is not a wall..... The thought was - to consider opening up the wall at the 18' mark.... about 12' - extending 1 foot beyond each post.... This would open to a second room.... This is what my wild card is... and is my largest concern... I thought having a lot of space behind the maggies - (approx 20' if I open the wall) - would be advantageous....

My other option is to NOT open that 12' space on the long wall... and only give them 5' of room to the front wall (i.e. from the polls to the 18' mark)....

So, I am a dumbo.... I am still confused....

Reading all about Limage - made me wonder ... should I make the room smaller?? (i.e. 16X26 as Satie suggested).... Then I read how Maggies need volume to breathe.... I can do that by opening up the 12' space on the wall..... or I can go with a traditional short wall setting - but possibly need to wrestle with the polls....

So after reading this thread ... I am still at a quandry about whether I should open up that wall - give the Maggies mucho space behind them.... Or close it off .... amd either go with a setup you suggested.... or go with a more traditional short wall setup Satie suggested - but pulling the speaker in front of the 1 poll.

LOL... I am sorry.... I have been staring at this for a year.....

 

RE: Sorry, like this?, posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:10:34
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 actually I was thinking of keeping them as thin as possible - but taking wood.... and getting a stain that would match the maggies....

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 26, 2015 at 09:35:29
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Consider hiring a room specialist? I'd lock the room down at the 18 x 30', great volume, and you can treat rom nodes/issues with treatments. Just one opinion of many. :)
P.S. Whatever you do, when you wire; include HT requirements for resale at minimum, even if you don't want it.

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 26, 2015 at 10:15:17
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Good idea about room expert... One more question...... what about possibly looking at doors that could close off the second space? I have seen sliding type doors that can cover a 12' space? If I chose to keep it closed... do you think I would have any issues because it was a door ...vs drywall?

If I did this... I could either open it up.... or close it off?

 

turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 26, 2015 at 11:32:10
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 my post is one of those that won't help anyone but it did bring back memories of a room I saw while house hunting a few years back. I came upon a house that was listed with an astounding 4,000 sq ft with an incredible view of the mountains and valley. I knew before I stepped foot into it an incredible music room awaited (added bonus: the owner was a big stereo gear collector and semi-pro photographer).

Turns out the place did in fact have a huge downstairs family room which could've easily fit 2, even 3 pool tables. Only problem was a huge beam that sat right smack in the middle of the floor plan. Long story short, no other room in the place had the potential for a great sound room, so I reluctantly passed (not to mention it was way over my price range).

The things we do for Maggie (sigh)...sorry I couldn't be of much help, but here's a pic or two during our walk-through of said room anyway:





















 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 26, 2015 at 11:54:10
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 LOL... that is it....haha..... Yeah... you look at it... and its like.... dang.... if those posts were 3 feet left...... When I got this house.... the one I saw before which my wife liked had 3 sets 3 of posts all about 10' apart .... and I was like... no way.... in this house we only had one set of 3 and I figured I could work with it... and I can... I just am trying to design it so that I don't put myself into a corner post wall build.... I like the idea of opening things up.... but, I also want to be able to have the best sound possible.... Being able to open and close it via doors would be great - unless someone says - nah - that won't work because of such 'n such.... But then again, putting doors on a 12' space is not cheap....

 

Also note, posted on May 26, 2015 at 13:03:52
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 you could place the round posts directly behind the panels and not effect the sound - though I wouldn't place it directly behind the tweeter.

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

Interesting idea., posted on May 26, 2015 at 13:08:56
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 It will not be as solid as a wall obviously. So the effect on sound would be unknown. In all honesty I doubt one could hear the difference...

 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 26, 2015 at 14:21:47
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Just to add more confusion, am I the only one who has had bad experiences with TOO much room around the Maggie's? For a couple months last year, I moved my IIIa's out from the enclosed basement room to the MUCH larger area of the rest of the basement (20x45 or so). I found the sound got real dead, though the full carpeting and sound absorbing drop down ceiling tiles didn't help any. When I moved back into the 14x20 room, everything came alive again.

Anyone else have any experience with too much room?

 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 26, 2015 at 16:26:40
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Swamis cat. What was the ceiling and floor in the other room?

 

RE: That's another option., posted on May 26, 2015 at 21:10:40
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I like the idea of using the short wall on the full 18X30 space but while you can put the speaker in front of one post the second post will be near the path from speaker to ear on that side, It may not be that bad and being 5' off the interior wall would not really be a problem, but if it is then having a somewhat narrower room would put the closer post further to the side and out of the acoustic path.Otherwise the bigger space is going to be better and since a sub is available the OP can solve bass deficiencies that may arise in the larger space, however reluctant he is about using it..

 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 26, 2015 at 21:16:44
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 That sort of space is more Tympani territory than 3.x. It is fine for a 20.x so long as you don't end up sitting too far. Bass could be a little weak in that space even with a 20.x.

 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 27, 2015 at 06:52:32
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 my old house before the divorce had an enclosed back patio which was about 15 x 40'. I had MG1.6s which really got swallowed within it. I ended up building a wall to bring it in around 15x30. At the same time i had a old 45" box tv which I framed into the center making it essentially a flat TV (long before flat TVs were affordable). I had all my audio gear out there, the only thing keeping someone from stealing it was about 15 windows, 1/8" aluminum wall, oh- and my 80 pound German Shepherd. Miss those days.









 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 27, 2015 at 08:16:26
Norman M
 I had you beat in at least one respect because I owned a 120 lb. Rottweiler. The only problem was that he was a complete mush, and if thieves ever came into the house, he'd rollover expecting them to tickle his belly.

 

RE: turned down an incredible house once, posted on May 27, 2015 at 08:27:00
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Cool. I am going to create some way to close off that 12' opening via sliding doors keeping reflections in mind. This way I will be able to lug them all around the space. And yes I am a bit reluctant to use the descent but it should b a good match as it does fine with my current stats.

Sounds like we want to make the ceiling diffuse w carpeting over cement? Any issues if I were to make the perimeter of the floor 2' say... Tile? Or would that be too reflective. I am so used to using absorption w my stats... Diffusion is a different ball game for me.

Thanks tim

 

lol...well my ole girl, posted on May 27, 2015 at 22:28:31
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 was all bark and no bite too LoL...
Here she is "guarding" my old TV

Unfortunately I had to give here away when I moved overseas to work. She was one helluva smart canine.














 

Grant's layout seems great., posted on May 29, 2015 at 13:27:39
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 1455
Joined: March 4, 2002
 The only solution that I can see is what Grant drew, since the speakers will need at least 6 feet behind them and the posts could actually help with diffusion. I would not think that the speakers would have to be in front of the posts since I don't think that they would have to be that far apart from each other.
You need the 5+ feet behind the speakers, not so much behind the couch. But w/ the couch near the back wall, you may need absorption.

 

RE: Grant's layout seems great., posted on May 29, 2015 at 13:43:15
tim_meyers
Audiophile

Posts: 780
Location: Ann Arbor Mi
Joined: January 15, 2008
 Hey ... Thanks. I definitely have the absorption panels. 4 2x4 GIK 244s. I'm going to try and make it as flexible as possible without compromise. :)

 

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