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From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers)

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Posted on May 14, 2015 at 23:32:48
JBen
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Not the movie, folks. Old Guy 42 learned that I have been enjoying myself grandly with the latest musical instrument that was added to my system's capabilities. This is the pipe organ. On pretty much all other low-frequency music, the modded MMGs do rather well all by themselves. On pipe organs however...not really. Making things tougher, I never liked -- and hardly ever used -- my Velo subwoofer for music duty. As a result, the few organ discs I had were buried under the proverbial ton of dust until I decided to do a quick build of stereo woofers recently.

I guess that one day I may have told OG42 about an extraordinary listening session. It included an SACD that brought Notre-Dame Cathedral's pipe organ to my home. With the 2 new little 10" woofers providing a fully-integrated and textured extension, things shook in the room that not even my old subwoofer had excited so much, even with action movies.

Obviously, OG42 figured that I still have a thing or two to learn about these kinds of performances. So, he sent me a CD by Felix Hell, recorded when he was only 14 yeards old. Well, folks that kid was already doing great when they handed him the keys to a Schoenstein organ. The performance is terrific, the Schoenstein organ is superb and the recording is clearer than many typical such recordings.

Oh, and what fun demons you feel around you! The infrasonics are stupendous at times. I pulled out the mic to measure them because you don't hear them, of course. Yup, those devils lurk down there, shaking things like a Dolby Surround poltergeist...while trying to tickle the soul off your body, in plain stereo.

 

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RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 01:42:59
andyr
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Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
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Great to hear, JBen. Even with the full-length bass panels of my Frankenpans, I still don't hear the full beauty of my Bach organ LPs! :-((

So I have placed an order for a pair of custom-made 15" sealed subs, to be installed in the new house (in November). I am eagerly anticipating what these will bring to my listening pleasure. :-))


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 07:17:17
Green Lantern
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Sounds great; can you provide info or a link to the subs? Thanks!









 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 07:47:40
JBen
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Yes, will do, GL. Just give me a few days to finish testing and add proper context. That which worked well here may not do so in the same manner elsewhere.

Besides, I am still stressing the 10" (low-profile) drivers to see how far they can really go. I don't need major SPL but others may; gotta give them some kind of idea. That said, I am very pleased that such decent performance can be achieved for not too many bucks. For those pursuing proper musical integration before major SPL, these little boxes may be a revelation.

DIY skills are required but I think this will not be hard for many. I found suppliers for the boxes and a really nice (inexpensive) low filter. I must add that the Maggies' feeds would not be filtered, they can stay full range.

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 08:01:23
JBen
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Hey, Andy! I was thinking about you last weekend, as I listened to the Notre-Dame organ. The Frankies' size would have delivered quite a spectacle in my room.

If you can, plan for positionings that allow you to align the woofer drivers next to each Frankenpan. I can't, for lack of space on the sides of my Maggies. Luckily, the woofers are so shallow (6") that they can be placed right in front of each [already raised] MMG. (Of course, I am having a hard time making it all look "pretty" :-))

The resulting time alignment is close enough to deliver incredible integration. This includes delightful instrumental textures that many folks would lose if their Maggies got subwoofers slapped on them.

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 08:45:29
Satie
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I had good organ bass results with the wall -loaded (Limage) Tympani and bracing to the wall with my 2kw/ch amp. It does not do belly shaking quite as explosively as a pair of long throw 13" woofers but it is most definitely felt as well as heard. And shakes things off the shelves. The extension is incredible as you hear the pedal notes clearly Even the 16hz is loud and clear. And there is no integration problem,

Vandy 2C sub conversion project is still on hold.

 

welcome to the supplementation club, posted on May 15, 2015 at 08:58:05
wazoo
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Once you go deep, it's hard to accept anything less. ;-)

I have lots of music that reaches into the depths. I couldn't live with my MMGs without their 10", sealed subs. Well, I guess I'll find out what living without the MMGs and the subs is like because they will become my daughter's this weekend. She said that I can invade her room anytime I need a planar fix, so I will. I guess I don't have to bugger off - still sort of a planar guy (intermittently, anyway), with the best MMGs on the planet!

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 11:00:07
JBen
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LOL, Satie, I was also remembering you this past weekend as I played some low-bass music. I kept amusingly thinking about you saying "not enough...never enough!" ...even as things shook off the walls in my room.

The lowest bass my modded MMGs can muster by themselves is 32Hz (like at -10db under best conditions). Barely a whisper, though musically intact. To hear it while at normal overall listening levels, I have to have the A/C and the fridge off. In addition, its gotta be very cool outside so that my neighbors turn their A/C's off also. OTOH, at 40Hz and up, things are lively, even impactful.

With the new woofers on, that handshaking at 40Hz took some attention but it was well worth it in this room. The woofers now reach under 20hz with adequate composure and definition. Seamless delivery is amazing. For all intents and purposes, it is just the MMG's personality simply reaching lower.

Your mention of those long throw 13" woofers reminds me of something that may be critically helpful here, if only by accident. By choosing low-profile woofers -- with their inherent SHORT throw -- I may have inadvertently achieved a better "driver mating". (Yet, all I was initially pursuing with these thin woofers was to have shallow boxes, dumb me!) Does this make sense?

 

RE: welcome to the supplementation club, posted on May 15, 2015 at 11:32:02
JBen
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Thanks, Waz! I certainly took my sweet time to pursue it, did I not?

Which may have helped, come to think of it. Luckily, my room PLUS the original MMG design PLUS some mods, deliver good bass. This allowed me to focus on just modding the MMGs to the max. In turn, this raised the level of performance that the unavoidable bass supplementation would have to achieve. Simultaneously, along the years, I was learning from what our brighter minds here shared about adding bass. Because of them, mine has been a much shorter path than I had expected in achieving the integration.

In fact, your own MMG's + subwoofers integration -- a warm & vivid picture still in my mind -- were considered a role model from my earliest times in these parts. Now it is time for me to put together some notes for others to use when they need their own options. I'll be happy if only a couple more souls can eventually make these work for them also.

And I'd be happier still if you soon get back use of your little audio palace. Darn it, at least some early room space for the MMGs to return in the meantime!

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 12:30:18
Satie
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Outside of cost I don't think the low excursion woofers are an advantage. the bigger magnets required for the long throws are better for everything. The only downside might be in the surround suspension. Old style folded fabric surround (think ye ole JBLs) tends to provide "faster" bass that may mesh better with a planar.
The main thing you got in this setup to have the positive integration is the sealed cabinet for the bass drivers. The rest is XO/placement alignment.

 

RE: From Hell (via a pair of old MMGs + add-on 10" woofers), posted on May 15, 2015 at 13:44:06
JBen
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Satie, yup, that is the prevalent view, which had always been my own. In fact, partly because of the smaller magnets, I had serious misgivings at first.

However, I have recently begun to scratch my head bloody on this. Anyway, this is by no means the only potential contributor, if it is at all such a thing.

 

Don't worry about it., posted on May 15, 2015 at 20:56:05
wazoo
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I do find it funny that these changes arrive so soon after landing on an amazing and supremely engaging speaker arrangement - thanks to this site. I'd be an ass to complain about it, especially in light of the situations which others are currently enduring. I've found fun in the audio hobby at every step of the journey, and the present is no different.

I also find it a bit funny that I think I might miss my MMGs even more than the 3.7s. A pair of 10" sealed subs does wonders for the MMGs, but having them within 6' of one's listening position yields practically perfect bass reproduction - very solid, while being amazingly smooth and it sounds as though it's all coming out of the MMGs. I was joking with the best MMGs comment, but I really do love this system.

 

RE: time alignment ..., posted on May 15, 2015 at 23:22:36
andyr
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Location: Melbourne
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Yes, very important JBen - and not paying close enough attention to time alignment is, I suggest, the main reason why many people have such average results, adding subs to Maggies.

Luckily for me, the guy who is building my subs is right on top of all that. :-)) He explained that when you add subs to "main speakers", you need to apply a time delay to the main speakers - so they come into alignment with the signal coming out of the subs. Sure you can physically move the mains back behind the subs the right distance, to get the appropriate X milliseconds delay ... or you use DSP. And DSP gives you room correction as well! :-))

But if you delay the bass panels to line up with the subs ... you also have to delay the other drivers. The DSP unit which provides the delay can also provide the HP & LP filters - so I will be replacing my current 3-way analogue XOs with a 4-way DSP unit. A whole new world! :-))


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Don't worry about it., posted on May 16, 2015 at 11:35:17
JBen
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You know, Waz, I think I get some of what you are saying. Earlier today I was doing my 3-mile Saturday walk at the local flea market. As always, I found some old LPs here and there. Sometimes I find a good one and buy it. Mind you, I have not had a turntable installed for decades. I buy the used LPs because they are still good and I don't care that I won't listen to them...for now.

To play these LP's, I want at least a half-decent turtable. The money to get it, for now, is better devoted to other things that are more important. And then, if we need the challenge of fixing us something that plays back music for us, even a transistor radio will get a major SQ boost from that which we stored in our memory banks.

 

DSP SQ, posted on May 16, 2015 at 11:56:14
Satie
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Tell us how it goes on the SQ of the DSP units you try out.

I have not yet heard a DEQX, TACT or other high end DSP with good DACs so don't know how to weigh the positive effects of room processing and time alignment against the effects of the digital AD DA loop. My limited experience has not yet shown a net positive relative to PLLXO and physical time alignment.

 

RE: time alignment ..., posted on May 16, 2015 at 12:30:10
JBen
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Andy, you put the finger on what was frustrating me during tests, for years. The simplest manner in which I can say it is this: I have to stay in analog after the initial Digital-to-Analog conversion. Furthermore, if I ever add a turntable again, I'd never want the signal to undergo conversion to digital, at all.

No manner of DSP could help me because it needs to reconvert to digital. I tried many DSP computer-based programs and most types of High Rez algorithms. They solved timings...even facilitated changing slopes & xover points. However, they always spoiled other things dearer to me.

After many experiments, the stark reality hit me. Unless I found a key to analog "time travel", it was better to align the drivers physically as best I could. The surprise was NOT that this worked as far as timings, which was a given. The surprise was that I did not have to filter the Maggies feeds at all...they are running full-range, which I was hoping for but would have bet against (mainly due to some peculiarities here).

The net result is tonal & textural seamlessness to a degree that I never expected. I am now trying to figure out more fully what is helping the most. Of course, had driver timings not been aligned well enough, I'd be drowning.

 

RE: DSP SQ, posted on May 16, 2015 at 12:38:47
JBen
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Satie, it seems like you and I went along parallel trails at times. Once the PLLXO does its good deeds, it is hard to let go of the blessings by allowing DSP in. I've been there and refused to let go of the analog/PLLXO blessings. Which is why the woofers took so long.

Of course, if a room is too challenging to tackle fully in the analog domain, the priorities could be different. Then, DSP could be easily indicated.

Since you have a less common setup, I'll keep this in mind when I write the stuff about the woofers here. Actually, hmmm, don't be surprised if I email you a different version (to spare the others from a longer set of explanations).

 

RE: DSP SQ, posted on May 16, 2015 at 13:15:42
Satie
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I would be happy to see what you were thinking in more detail.

I see that we share many of the same considerations. I can say that my own AD/DA looping on a tascam 800 and the musical fidelity end up sounding so much more like the DAC then what was fed into it (though very good on the MF and good on the Tascam) that there is no way I am convinced this would work for me.

Playing back streaming at 320k was a real let down, but live professional HD uTube recordings do ok and remarkably better than I expected. Converting the 320k PCM into DSD did it a favor in de-edging the sound. But it was not good enough.

 

RE: DSP SQ ..., posted on May 16, 2015 at 15:47:19
andyr
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Yes, I was worried too, Satie. Until a mate of mine who has Wilsons and a very high-class vinyl setup tried out the top DEQX rig (the one with an analogue PSU, not a SMPSU) and said that he didn't notice any sonic degradation.

So we'll see if this is so! ;-))


Andy

 

RE: time alignment ..., posted on May 16, 2015 at 15:56:38
andyr
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I would say you could have a problem with your current placement, JBen?

The - what, 18dB ... 24dB? - LP filter on the subs causes a timing difference. If you are running your Maggies full range it will be less (the way I understand it) than if you have a matching HP filter on them ... but the subs need to be in front of the main speakers, if you want to use physical time alignment to delay the mains, rather than DSP.

In my situation, the subs have to be in the front corners of the room - so I already have a physical time delay, compared to where the panels will be, as well as the filter-induced delay. So DSP is the only choice.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: time alignment ..., posted on May 16, 2015 at 19:49:09
JBen
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Andy, I expected much more trouble getting time integration. Subconsciously, however, I did some things right (that's me not admitting to the reality..."dumb luck" :-)).

Oh well, one design "accident" was that I made the boxes 6" deep. I coulo explain, but the long story short is that it was for other reasons. Yet, this wound up allowing me to place each woofer right in front of each MMG. (Less than one inch separates them.)

At the frequencies involved, this is good enough to "help the cause". It does allow, for example, for some gorgeous textures on bowed bass strings to be better heard. They become stronger but do not lose their rosin-impregnated texture vibes in the process. LOL, you may take these things for granted on the Frankies right now. Me, I need to strenghen their volume without their losing their personality...hard work it is.

One other thing may have helped much. Yes, it is 24db/octave, though I also got commendable results with 12db using a pair of cheapo filter boards (<$18US) from China. The specs for he 24db low filter system I ended up with (UK-design, Chinese made) read like a dream solution for me. It is still under test for a couple more days and I am asking the supplier a few things. I'll look up the link when I get home and send it to you and Satie. (I am staying with friends tonight.)

 

It's a lot of things, actually., posted on May 17, 2015 at 11:24:30
wazoo
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One of the things is that I want my daughter to have my MMG/REL hybrids and the space in which to enjoy them. She also has a large assortment of musical instruments, and forfeiting my room in the house will give those instruments somewhere to be kept (she had two rooms in the house next door). As I mentioned before, the whole scenario is a long, boring story (and whose life is not riddled with them?), but this living arrangement seems best to me, for now. The system changes are simply necessary, as a result of the living arrangement I chose.

It's a choice and I'm prepared to live with it. Will I miss the Maggies? Of course, but that doesn't mean that I won't enjoy listening to music - I know, because I have already been doing so. A different speaker design just means a different suite of strengths and weaknesses. In a way, it's right that things happened when they did - my system was 'there'. Now, the game is reset and the fun can start all over again...although, things are pretty darn good right out of the gate.



 

RE: It's a lot of things, actually., posted on May 18, 2015 at 06:33:20
Utley1
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You are a good man Wazoo. Ut

 

don't know about that, but..., posted on May 23, 2015 at 14:06:09
wazoo
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It looks like she has 3.7s, instead. It would have been foolish not to try them in her mini-cave. We were both quite impressed. She also got my Marantz PM-11S1 integrated amp, which has no problem driving the 3.7s. It was nice to listen to them again. I really like them. My daughter loves her new setup, which makes me very happy, indeed.

 

RE: don't know about that, but..., posted on May 23, 2015 at 15:54:25
Satie
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Hopefully you also have a standing invite to come listen...

 

I do., posted on May 23, 2015 at 16:26:49
wazoo
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We're sharing the room, anyway...to some extent. It's still where my clothes are kept. It's her 2nd room. She doesn't 'live' in that room. It's where most of her musical instruments, stereo and TV will be. It isn't ideal, but it's very good. If there's one thing that I've continued to be impressed with about Maggies, it's how many arrangements are not only workable, but downright super. This is a different presentation from the ~Limage, but it's quite engaging.

A little while ago, she told me how impressed she is with the way it makes her Rachmaninoff recordings sound, and I thought she was going to lose it when she put on a Faun tune - that's when I heard the most amazing bass I've ever experienced out of a pair of unaccompanied Maggies. Of course, the other end of the spectrum is where much magic was happening - simply glorious.

Ah, I've created a monster. ;-)


 

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