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The Limage works.

50.161.171.220

Posted on April 15, 2015 at 14:10:16
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Okay, you can say you told me so. I remembered that I used the rule of 3rd's in my prior room and that was how it sounded the best. I was able to pull my 2.5's, 5 feet into the room, move my seating position back so my head at listening position is 10 feet away and where there is 5 feet behind me. The ribbons are on the inside and are 5 feet apart. Less toe-in required.

The results are outstanding to say the least. The mids and highs are so much better (increased resolution). The soundstage is much wider than a 10 foot wide room should sound. Instrument placement and vocals are also improved. Time for masking tape to mark the locations as all pieces of the puzzle are in there rightful places for optimal listening enjoyment.

Jim

ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

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RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 15, 2015 at 14:48:02
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Here's the H/K Limage from the guy himself:

"PANEL SPEAKER PLACEMENT & ROOM COUPLING 15-4-2007

Few of us, except perhaps the rare species of odd fossils of the pre-historic era, would have questioned the paramount importance of speaker placement nowadays. What is more debatable is where and how the speaker positions are to be determined. I have been a faithful follower of the room-coupling school and I believe that should be the best way out.

Room coupling, I am quite positive by now, really goes beyond the deliberations over direct verses reflected sound sources, because the focal point remains relatively constant irrespective of what damping treatments we have on the wall surfaces in any given room. This focal point does not seem to move until the dimension of the room is drastically changed.

To achieve effective room coupling, one has to locate the focal spot of the room first. There is a simple yet effective method to find this spot but I shall come back to that a while later. Every room has its own peaks and valleys acoustically. The peaks are resonances and the valleys are just the opposite, the suck-outs as a result of phase cancellation. I used to believe the coupling point is the spot where multiple resonances gravitate since it clocks the highest sound level throughout the audio band. If we look at it the other way round, however, the focal point of the room should more correctly be taken as the spot where phase cancellation is the lowest.

When the speakers are placed along this focal spot, phase cancellation would be at its minimal obtainable within the room and the system will then be able to resolve, with the best of fidelity and the least of distortion, the myriads of spatial information contained in the recording. The width and depth, the ambience, the layering and instrument placements etc. will all spring to life. Proper sound staging, no doubt, has much to do with this phase coherency across the audible frequency range. We all know what would happen if one speaker is inverted in phase—there will be no imaging, no soundstage, and even no sense of direction. This is the result of serious phase cancellation. Even if the speakers are properly in phase, however, there would still be a fair amount of cancellation depending on where the speakers are placed.

Ideally speaking, the room should be symmetrical in overall shape and the speakers symmetrically placed along the lengths of the rectangle. If one speaker is close to the side wall while the other is in the middle of the room, a rather common sight given the popular L-shape layout of sitting rooms in HK, there exist more chances for cancellation taking place at various frequencies, rendering the imaging blurred, stage collapsed and ambience lost.

Once the speakers are coupled to the room, the two merge into one. The room becomes an effective extension of the speakers which in turn would cease to exist visually. Tuning for solid imaging then becomes much easier. Human ears locate the sound source by detecting the time difference of direct sound arriving at the ears. To achieve three dimensional imaging, all we have to do is to cut down secondary reflections from overwhelming the direct sound. While on this subject, I like to point out that I have tried the live-end-dead-end approach and it did not work to my satisfaction. I believe speakers are designed with the average western style living room in mind where upholstery, curtain, carpet and furniture all contribute to an acoustic environment which is neither too dead nor too live, but moderate throughout. This is something worth considering when we set about fabricating our listening area. It is not uncommon to find that the more elaborately contrived the HiFi room is, the less satisfactory it often turns out.

All in all, phase coherence does appear to be the key and with this key we stand every good chance to unleash a completely new dimension of audio realism.

*****

Here comes the core—the action part of the whole thing, a method that has proven to work wonders for me over the last 30 odd years.

Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly. Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.

Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point.

Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot. You've just coupled your speakers to your room. What is left, may be the crucial part yet, is to find the perfect stereo seat. As the name suggests, you'll have to look for the widest stereo soundstage again along the aisle, between the speakers. If one side of the room does not give you the best definition and soundstage, try the other side. I was the one having my seat moved over to the wrong side of the room to get the best out of my present system.

Final note, if you are unable to find the focal spot despite trekking up and down diligently the whole afternoon, your room dimension is probably too bad to be a listening room. Try another room if you have one. If not you'll have to move house.

Ivan Li (Limage)"
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 15, 2015 at 18:09:12
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
I believe down below I had suggested to you to try the Limage/HK setup. I am so glad you tried it and like it so much. When it works it is absolute magic. Enjoy
Alan

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 15, 2015 at 18:17:28
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Alan:

You sure did, it was a matter of figuring out in a finite space to pull it off. While big planars sound wonderful near field, so much better with some breathing room and the proper amount of diffuse at the first reflection point on the front wall.

Maybe some minor tweaks left, isn't there always.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

Yes it does..., posted on April 16, 2015 at 09:43:23
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: MN
Joined: January 31, 2010
Many of us are using this set-up...IMHO, with the right room, it takes the sonic picture to the next level...

Sadie has been preaching this for quite sometime...When I first tried this, it completely blew me away...I have mentioned on this forum before, it "snaps" things into focus...You do NOT get an over euphoric or exaggerated soundstage...in my room, it simply gives you rock solid images, placed correctly with-in the soundstage with proper size and timbres...

I really hate the term "musicality", BUT this set-up increases my enjoyment by shutting off my critical listening...

Congrats and enjoy...
Thanks
Mark

 

RE: Yes it does..., posted on April 16, 2015 at 10:24:45
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
Mark:

You pretty much nailed it. While Magnepan provides a decent method to set them up, Mr. Li really figured it out to get every drop of goodness out of the type of speakers this room is about.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

Yes it does..., posted on April 16, 2015 at 10:44:46
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: MN
Joined: January 31, 2010
Yeah Big Jim...

Many of the inmates have equated this to adding a new and improved piece of gear within the Rig...

I also have 4 silk fichus behind each speaker, at different heights that also improves overall presentation...

You got to like those cheap or free upgrades...
thanks
Mark

 

I don't understand the directions., posted on April 16, 2015 at 11:41:19
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009

I can't figure out at all what the instructions actually mean.

"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly."

Which is the lengths of the room? Which wall is the back wall? Which direction are the speakers facing? What is L' and L?

" Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.

Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point"

Is the "mid-line between the speakers" the line connecting the speakers, or the perpendicular bisecting the line connecting the speakers?

"Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot"

What does that mean? Where do I move the speakers to? Do I change where they used to be?

I think I need a picture. Is it clear to everybody else but me?

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 16, 2015 at 14:18:28
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
The instructions I used for the Limage/HK setup was as follows
1) Bring the speakers out from the front wall 40% the length of the room
2) Place tweeters on the inside
3) Place side of speaker 12" from side wall
4) Face speakers straight ahead
5) Sit one to two feet from rear wall
This is my setup
Alan

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 16, 2015 at 15:35:59
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
I think you can start from ahender's list and tweak from there. Not every room that can handle the Limage setup successfully will actually do that "cathedral" effect. When tweaking start with tweaking the position from the front wall (the one you are facing) bringing the speakers up nearer to you in small increments of 1" or so, just keep the speakers perpendicular to the sidewalls and at the same distance. You should reach a point where the soundstage "snaps together" and where further advancing the speakers makes the effect fall apart. You can try then to see if you get the "cathedral effect" while doing your "monkey walk" or scooting too and fro on a skateboard.

When you are done with that then go on to balancing the bass by reducing the width of the slot between the wall and the panel to increase bass and pulling away from the sidewall to reduce bass.

When this is done you can try to increase image precision with minor toe in.. If any is needed it will still likely be less than 1".

If you have the slightest reason to suspect that your floors are uneven then use a bubble level to guide you to set the speakers vertically. The slightest departure from vertical will damage or even entirely scramble the soundstage and give you lopsided height cues..

 

RE: I think #1 should read: "Bring the speakers out from the *front* wall 40% the length of the room." nt, posted on April 16, 2015 at 15:57:46
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
.

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 17, 2015 at 09:33:14
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
I initially had some troubles setting up the Limage. I discovered that I wasn't using sufficiently "hilarious type" music. When I switched to the Reference Recordings hi definition vocal renditions of Wierd Al Yankovitch everything snapped into place.*

On a more serious (less hilarious) note, I really need to correct for vertical dimension. My 3.7is have never been perfectly vertical on my deep carpeting. They lean way back in an awkward way which my IIIa's don't. Thanks for the tip Satie.

* I always assumes a Google translate issue on this word.

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 17, 2015 at 11:42:40
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
Well I also have read this slooowly 5 times now, and I just don't get it.

"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall.." -> really; 1/3 from the BACKwall, not the FRONTwall which is behind the speakers???

"...and Ľ the breadth roughly" -> what does this mean?

"Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point. Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot" -> so basically this focal point is on the other side of the room, and speakers are dragged to there. But if I understood correctly, they are now quite close to other wall but still facing it? Or should I turn the speakers around at some stage of this process??

I also would love to have a clear picture or such about this process, it just sounds really complicated now :-o

 

RE: I think #1 should read: "Bring the speakers out from the *front* wall 40% the length of the room." nt, posted on April 17, 2015 at 17:28:10
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
You are correct. I have edited the post
Alan

 

RE: Actually, my gut feel says ..., posted on April 17, 2015 at 17:44:01
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
that "40%" is an approximation! :-))

If the speaker (or the bass panel mylar, to be exact) was in the 'Golden Ratio' position, it would be 38.2% out from the front wall (and therefore 61.8% out from the back wall).


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 18, 2015 at 07:00:00
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
"5) Sit one to two feet from rear wall"

I have always understood that there should be about the same distance between listener and that back wall, than between the speakers and the front wall?

 

The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 08:35:40
For the sake of argument, let's assume there is no back wall at all.
Does that imply that Maggies couldn't then sound their best? I don't think so, AFAIAC a back wall only detracts from the listening experience, and the further away it is, all the better. In fact in some persons ear pinnae shield any contribution from the back wall. Are their listening experiences any the less?

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 09:46:05
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
I don't think so, but if there is a back wall, it surely matters what is the destination from the listener to it.

 

RE: I think #1 should read: "Bring the speakers out from the *front* wall 40% the length of the room." nt, posted on April 18, 2015 at 10:16:46
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013



But hey, the mention about the back wall in the original instruction might actually be correct:

"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly. Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point."

Think about it; if speakers are 1/2 to 1/3 from the back wall, BUT they are pointing against the front wall, you could then find the focal point for the speakers near the front wall. Then you just drag the speakers to the focal point, flip them around again pointing to the back wall, and that's where they should be. Am I right? The instruction is a bit vague, since it does not say anything about the direction that speakers are pointing on.

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 11:17:16
I'm not absolutely certain as to carry-over to home listening experiences but when picking a seat to hear music at live events it's advised (1) not to sit beneath an overhang, as under a balcony and (2) distant from any rear wall.

I think the reasoning is all too obvious. I can vouch for #2 from my experiences.

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 12:38:00
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
I would say just try it since it works in the context of the Limage setup You are using the room's reflections in this setup more so than you would be in other placements so if you can lay aside the principle of back wall avoidance for this and just try it then you may be surprised by the outcome. The distance from the speaker to the back wall in this setup is significantly less than it is at "normal" 1/3 setups so that backwall reflections immediately behind you are not going to do as much damage to timing. You can experiment with absorption on the back wall behind you to see whether these near reflections are useful or counterproductive.

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 13:03:17
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
"The distance from the speaker to the back wall..."???

 

Indeed!, posted on April 18, 2015 at 16:43:19
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
Thanks to Satie for bringing to my attention a year ago...there is no going back once everything is dialed in.

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 18, 2015 at 20:12:36
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Since you have the speaker pulled up nearly half way into the room as opposed to more traditional placement where the speaker is typically no more than 1/3 of the way into the room and usually less. So it is closer to the back wall than usual.

You are also trying to retain a sufficient distance from the listening seat to the speakers.

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 19, 2015 at 01:18:05
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
Ok, thanks. But is it really so that the listening position can be only 2-3 feet from the back wall?

 

RE: The Back Wall, posted on April 19, 2015 at 05:22:43
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
I think most folks who try the Limage setup end up with their seat at 1-2 ft from the back wall. We had a bit of a debate about seat back height that ended up with a consensus that you want the back of your seat well below ear height so that backwall reflections reach you - at least in the Limage setup.

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 19, 2015 at 05:48:02
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Sorry I missed that - that is 1/3 from the front wall (behind the speakers) though most folks end up with the speakers further out. In some cases pulling out to the point of having the speakers more than 1/2 way into the room works better.. Particularly if there are early reflections off a rack or something else on the front wall.

In any case, there is no point in turning the speakers the other way.

 

"From the guy himself"?, posted on April 19, 2015 at 06:07:46
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
Harry Pearson was promoting the Rule of Thirds in the 90s. Which works about perfectly in my room as well.

 

RE: "From the guy himself"?, posted on April 19, 2015 at 07:11:55
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
E-Stat:

I also like the rule of 3rds as it has worked for me in two different rooms.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: "From the guy himself"?, posted on April 19, 2015 at 07:55:34
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
So what exactly does that rule say, and why should it be a good one?

 

First of all, it's merely a good starting point, posted on April 19, 2015 at 08:17:28
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
Set the speakers one third the length of the room out from the wall. Similarly, space the speakers laterally into thirds. Also avoid sitting in the middle of the room as nulls tend to live there.

Final placement was determined empirically by measuring bass response in the bottom three octaves. In my 26' long room, I found about eight feet out from the wall provided the most linear response. As for lateral placement, the U-1s with 90 degree panels work best slightly closer to the walls and toed out. My listening couch is about a third a way out into the room from the opposite wall.

Here's the third octave results:

 

No Walls, posted on April 19, 2015 at 11:37:10
Look Ma, no hands!

Err no, I meant to write, Look Ma, no walls!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlIk19CbBI

 

No front wall, posted on April 19, 2015 at 12:32:35
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since:
April 5, 2002
with the garage system. Tall line sources sound amazingly clear from a distance - like from my neighbor's driveway. Good thing they like the music. :)

 

RE: No Walls, posted on April 19, 2015 at 14:40:43
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
The Piazoa piece at the end was something else.

How did that image in your setup?

I am getting close miked piano in heavily damped rec studio

Compare that to her simply miked Rubinstein competition recitals also on a Steinway (flugel?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCHFLCBKrTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzJCgYPQcWY

 

RE: No Walls, posted on April 20, 2015 at 09:17:40
I agree with your assesment, excepting of course that it has another dimension superimposed upon it otherwise we wouldn't be hearing birds chirping.

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 20, 2015 at 10:02:34
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
"In any case, there is no point in turning the speakers the other way".

So could you please try to explain a bit in more detail how could I find that focal point, where sound would be "filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church"? I just can't understand those instructions :-o

 

What kind of sweet spot does this yield?, posted on April 20, 2015 at 21:18:26
Carl G
Audiophile

Posts: 710
Joined: July 4, 2000
Just curious. is the sweet spot narrow or pretty wide?

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 27, 2015 at 14:30:28
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
First my thanks to the folks that started the Limage threads as they have led to my best setup so far.

I noticed looking at all of H/K Limage's room coupling pictures that he has planar and box speakers near the side walls with the speaker faces either perpendicular to the side walls or turned toward the listening position. I found the best overall results with the latter positioning for my 1.7s. If the tweeters are not pointed toward my ears I lose too much detail on too many recordings. I did not ever get a solid snap that worked as well as possible for all recordings but I did get better results overall. Previously my best positioning was with the speakers centered at 33% from the front wall; 5 feet apart; directly facing the listening position (~30 degree angle) with my ears at 66% from the front wall.

I did the Limage hilarious action with a variety of CDs starting with 60's Bossa Nova (Edyie Gorme and Ultra Lounge :|). For finding the resonance point I had the 1.7s 25% to 40% of the way from the rear wall facing the rear wall as normal and about ½ the room width apart as I walked (on my knees) the middle line of the room. I noticed that the quietest area is always exactly between the speakers with the volume increasing up to 3 feet away going both directions on the center line. No surprise there. The last 3 feet at both ends of the room sounded different than the rest of the room, quieter but with more air. I decided that I had a resonance line between 33% and 38% from the front wall rather than a resonance point.

Previously I had set up 2 DWM at 38% from the front wall. I found this point by placing the DWM perpendicular to the side walls and moving them back and forth from 3 feet off the front wall to 3 feet off the back wall. I used track 4 from Philips 412 117-2 which is mostly very low notes played one at a time quietly on a pipe organ. This position was found with more of a snap. If I place the 1.7s on this 38% line perpendicular to the side walls I clearly hear more bass from them but don't get the best soundstage for most recordings.

Currently my front and back walls and ceiling are open framing filled with sound deadening Roxul. The side walls are mostly floor to ceiling book shelves. After the Limage exercise I finally located the 1.7s about 6 inches from the outside edge of the book shelves, centered between the 33% and 38 % lines from the front wall at about a 30 degree angle facing the listening position. My ears are centered between 25% to 33% from the rear wall. Some recordings sound a bit better at 33% from the rear wall and a few symphonic recordings all the way at the back wall but for most I hear no difference between 25% and 33% from the back wall. The DWM remain on a line 38% from the front wall between the 1.7s and as close to them as possible without blocking the tweeter path. My ears are about the mid-height of the 1.7 speaker element with the 1.7s plumb. I plumbed them because if they tilt back individual vocalists tend to be embedded in the floor from their waist down.

During the Limage exercise I placed the 1.7s in many locations between 0 and 12 inches from the side walls between 33% and 38% from the from wall and at various angles to the listening position. I also tried them next to the DWM which were next to the side walls.

For some recordings the speakers disappear into the soundstage but for other recordings most of the sound comes from the speakers which may sound from 1 to 3 times their actual width depending on the recording. On recordings where most of the soundstage was nearer the speakers I still heard bass, cymbals and an occasional woodwind or brass burst in the soundstage between the speakers. Without the Limage positioning the soundstage tended to disappear when the speakers were too far apart. With the Limage positioning there is always something like a wall of sound (hard to describe) on or behind the speakers even when I cannot place as many individual symphonic instruments in the sound stage and even when the speakers are further apart.

I have no proof but I think a lot of the soundstage is in the recordings. Given my Limage positioning Telarc CD-80072 track 3 places more sound on the speakers but with Deutsche Grammophon 453 085-2 the speakers disappear. This may be because the DG recording is of Stravinsky who uses all of the instruments in the orchestra and has the violins take their turn and play atypically.

Telarc CD 83483 has Ray Brown and friends playing 3 double bass. This sounds great regardless of speaker position but with Limage I could hear the bass in the middle clearly separated from the 2 bass on the outsides. One of my favorite classical vocal recordings is of Handel's Utrecht Te Deum (L'Oiseau-lyre 414 413-2). The music and singers are great but the choral parts suffer from "choral screech" especially the sopranos. When I get speakers positioned at their best I discover that the soprano choir is boys not women and I can clearly identify each of the 2 female soprano soloists and the counter tenor. In order to do this I have to have the speakers facing me and not perpendicular to the side walls.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 27, 2015 at 21:32:02
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
Thank you for the report on your experiments. Very informative.

I would suggest you would have a more typical "Limage" effect if you had the walls finished as it relies on reflections and you don't have much in the way of reflective surfaces. I can suggest you try wainscoting - 2-4 sheets at the very least put one behind you on the back wall and one on the center of the front wall or two to either side of the center but leave the center with the Roxul exposed for a stretch of 4 ft or a bit more.

Wainscoting is rather cheap. Just don't take something that is too repulsive to look at. This should give you some idea of what you might get when you finish the room.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 07:11:09
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
Great report, thanks zulugone!

Few questions:

- "In order to do this I have to have the speakers facing me and not perpendicular to the side walls". In all discussions regarding the limage setup, it is always said that speakers MUST be perpendicular to the side wall, or otherwise it just don't work. Any comments on this?
- What shape & size is your room?

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 07:33:28
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
That's another experiment to plan. This room came with 70s wood paneling and ceiling tile that caused obnoxious ringing. I will buy some cheap 4x8 and see what happens.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 07:36:12
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
Here are links to the Limage website. If you click on the first pic you get a slide show with many pics of setups without text.
http://www.1pekingroad.com/zaspx/replies.aspx?topicsno=3&subjectno=874&uppersubjectno=874
http://www.1pekingroad.com

My room is 13 feet by 20' 7" and the ceiling height is 7' 9". When I bought the house the room was wood paneling and ceiling tile. This caused lots of ringing. One long wall is sheetrock with book shelves and the other floor to ceiling wood bookshelves. I can remove the wooden bookshelves and then I have a room that is 23' by 20' 7" with a post in the middle. I was planning on combining stereo and pool table in the space but that vision is fading. The floor is concrete with a temporary carpet. My objective is to figure out how to finish the space for listening to music.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 10:15:26
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
Well yeah, that page says nothing if the speakers could be toed-in or not, and it also does not have any mention if they should be just besides the side wall or not.

So where from comes this quite common instruction that for limage setup Maggies should perpendicular to the side wall, touching it??

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 10:21:22
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
That was my reaction. My guess was the picture with the big Maggies showed them perpendicular and close to the wall and that worked well for people on this forum but I don't know that for a fact. Mr. Li mentions that people need to work with real world living spaces but he also says you may need to get a new house :).

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 28, 2015 at 12:28:57
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
That was my reaction. My guess was the picture with the big Maggies showed them perpendicular and close to the wall and that worked well for people on this forum but I don't know that for a fact. Mr. Li mentions that people need to work with real world living spaces but he also says you may need to get a new house :).

 

Limage CAN Work, posted on April 28, 2015 at 13:19:26
Swamis Cat
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Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
My experience with Limage is mixed. It has pros and cons in my room and gear with my listening tastes.

My room is 20 X 14 and I have two models -- a refurbished set of 3a's and a new set of 3.7i's which I can swap in or out. (Obviously I listen almost exclusively to the new ones -- and the old fellas are usually kept upstairs). I also have a pair of DWM's and a Rhythmic Sub which I can use or not use depending upon what sounds best.

The benefit of Limage set up in my room with my speakers is amazing, otherworldly soundstage and imaging. Everything is behind the speakers and spread out with realism. I can hear and see depth. In addition, image size is laser focused -- an acoustic guitar naturally miked sounds exactly guitar sized with no image blur or waiver even across frequency extremes.

The problem with Limage in my room with my newer speakers is that everything becomes slightly ghostly or ethereal. Instruments and dynamics are nowhere near as clear or crisp and bass loses some snap. In addition, micro dynamics are kind of lost.

I can regain a bit of the dynamic punch by aiming the tweeters directly at the listening seat. But I get significantly more by moving the speakers and listening position to a more traditional rule of thirds setup. This gives a more natural and lively tone to all music, but at the expense of the huge and holographic Limage soundstage.

To be frank, I switch back and forth between the two. I have all the key positions marked, and can switch the room in minutes. Whenever I switch I always find the improvement to be dramatic -- regardless whether I am going forward or back. Last night I moved to the rule of thirds setting and was extremely impressed by how much better everything sounded. The speakers sound much more expensive. When I swith back to Limage or Limage with toe in, I will be impressed by how much better the soundstage gets and how much more I am drawn into the music.

For what it is worth. I am sure results would differ with the room. They also differ based upon model -- the i's are much more directional imo.

 

RE: Limage CAN Work, posted on April 28, 2015 at 22:41:27
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2054
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
Limage does not work in my room. The focus is blurred and the soundstaging is ill defined. I think the area behind the speakers need a lot of attention with a Limage setup. In my room, I still get a better result with widely spaced 3.6, backwave going into the corners, tweeters on the outside and heavily toed-in.

 

RE: Limage CAN Work, posted on April 29, 2015 at 14:08:52
Bigjimsguitars
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Location: Northern Cal
Joined: January 21, 2015
I think so much is the room itself and what it brings to the table. I have been fiddling around a bit more and the rule of 3rds work the best for my room. Have about 12 degree of toe-in and have them leaning forward about 7 degrees, this is where the soundstsge is the purest and without any smear.

Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Totem Arro's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's


 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 30, 2015 at 12:41:44
ketchup
Audiophile

Posts: 622
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 29, 2004
"For finding the resonance point I had the 1.7s 25% to 40% of the way from the rear wall facing the rear wall as normal"

The Limage "method" does not say which direction the speakers should be facing when they are initially positioned. Also, it mentions having them 1/3-1/2 the way from the back wall, but does he really mean that? Most people consider the back wall to be the one behind the listening position.

Zulugone,
What do you consider to be the rear wall? When you initially set your Maggies up, were they closer to the rear wall (the one behind the listening position)and facing the rear wall?

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 30, 2015 at 12:50:33
ketchup
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Posts: 622
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 29, 2004
A lot of Limage setup photos I see so not use any diffusion on the front wall (the one you look at while listening). Is that why there is such a benefit in pulling the speakers out so far from the front wall? Can you get the same effect without the speakers so far out from the front wall if you use diffusion on the front wall? Will a Limage setup improve if diffusion is added to the front wall? Has anyone here tried Limage with and without diffusion?

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 30, 2015 at 14:45:05
Swamis Cat
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Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
Ketchup,

Good point. As I understand it, Limage works best with untreated or less treated front walls. I think the idea is to use the front wall as a fairly stable secondary image source. That is where the image seems to be emanating when I use it

I found my older IIIa's were more Limage friendly than my new 3.7i's (I think LI of Limage fame uses an old set of 3.5' s and is not a fan of the newer models). If I was to offer a hypothesis, I would suggest that over the years the people at Magnrpan are optimizing the speaker around a set of set up procedures. In this case, I suspect they are voicing it on placement three to five feet from the FW with toe in and diffusion on the FW. The reason I say this is because the speakers evolution seems to be getting the midrange increasingly attenuated (note the tape over the midrange on the rear), and it measures with a big upper mid dip (3-4 db) when placed too far from wall reflections. At least in my rooms.

That said, I do not have front wall diffusion, and I am sensitive to comb filtering effects. Thus I cannot stand the sound of the speaker in my room if closer than five to six feet from the FW. It glares. Lots.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 30, 2015 at 16:18:18
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
It is a matter of how the XOs are aligned with the suggested placement to integrate arrival times of signals from the various drivers at the listening seat. The old maggies are designed for a traditional face forwards placement with some toe in, while the .7 series are designed for straight on aggressive toe in.

The standard Limage setup has the front of the room uncluttered and untreated and the area in front of the speakers being busy and diffuse. You can see that in pictures of setups that Mr Li personally assisted in. (that is definitely not my case where there is junk everywhere).

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on April 30, 2015 at 19:06:40
zulugone
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: August 31, 2013
In my post "rear wall" is the wall behind the listening position. Some HK versions of the instructions also start at 1/4 of the way from the rear wall. I searched on the term 定位李 and found many examples of room setups by what I would guess are Mr. Li's acquaintances. I would post links I found but I sometimes got popups and don't want to share any possible infections.

I did find this interesting quote:

limage's setup is probably one of the most visited in HK, and for good reason. For decades, he has stuck to the Maggie's and the CJ and was consistent in obtaining good sound from them. limage takes pride in the imaging ability of his system, hence his moniker. The Maggie's are placed REALLY up front, almost near-field, resulting in a deep and wide sound-stage, and vivid though upfront sound. Not all, including myself, are convinced that the soundstage represents the absolute truth in its rendition of the live event. I'd think not; nothing less than a horn can do that. As a matter of fact, with these so-called true-ribbons, perhaps due to the disparate speed of the treble and bass, or perhaps due to multi-miking, sometimes the image shifts in size and presentation a little too noticeably for comfort. And the large image of near-field does not suit everyone.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on May 25, 2015 at 08:34:02
ketchup
Audiophile

Posts: 622
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 29, 2004
Here's a post Gallant diva made on Audiogon which describes the Limage setup process. These instructions don't have the potential translation issues as the ones from Ivan Lee (Limage) and explains exactly where to initially place the speakers.

Here is the meat of the post:
To start the speakers should be placed along the length of the room. The wall behind the speakers is referred to as the front wall while the wall behind the listener is termed as the back wall. The speakers should be at about 40% of the room length from the front wall (thus leaving about 60% length in front of them). The speakers should also be close to the sides wall, ideally, leave a distance of about 6-9" from the outer edged of the speaker to the side wall; of course, you need to have the same spacing on both sides. Note that this is only a guideline and incremental changes will still be needed for every room.

You will need to experiment with plus minus 4-6" of that position. Ivan recommends 1/3 of the room length to start with and slowly increasing it but I think 40% is a better starting point because Ivan's experience has been with Maggies, and also because I think if you start with 1/3, you will eventually move to close to 40% anyway.

Further optimizations should be done from this initial starting point because every room is different and has its own peaks and valleys in sound. Again, Ivan's method is very effective for this purpose. Once the speakers are placed at 40% of the room length, you play some loud music with all kind of instruments, especially bass. Then you walk from the back wall to the front wall slowly following a straight line that runs along the exact central axis, passing between the two speakers. You will need to bend down a little such that your ears are at a height that is near the center of the mid/high tweeters. As you walk like a monkey (do it when your wife and kids are not home, or else they might think you gone totally mad) hear the loud music carefully and then stop at the point where it is the loudest. That is the focal point of your room. Place the speakers on that line across the room.

The next biggest gain in sound that the non-conventional position brings you is what I call front-back soundstage synchronization. This synchronization is the alignment of the two parts of sound. The first part of the soundstage is the one being created by the front wave and the second part by the back wave. When the two parts are perfectly aligned in a focused manner with your sitting position is also at the correct point, you achieve the best imaging, and deepest and widest soundstage.

A common misconception is that with the speakers placed in the middle of the room, the back wave disappears or the back wave is mostly out of the equation. The fact is on the contrary: The back wave is rejuvenated and plays a central role in imaging, sound staging, layering and depth, and defining the boundaries of musical instruments. But the following principles need to be observed for proper synchronization.

First, absolutely no toe-in should be employed. Another common misconception is that the central image will be tighter with toe-in. This is simply not true. The only thing toe-in does is to increase the level of tweeter energy because highs are very directional. The negative effect of toe-in is that the back wave is out of synch with the front wave and that is contrary to our goal. With the non-conventional placement, there is a sound image at the front wall if you stand near the back wall and face the speakers. Incredibly, there is also a sound image on the back wall if you stand at the front wall and look back at the listening seat.

Second, place the speakers as apart as possible such that each speaker's outer edge is close to the side wall. Depending upon the width of the room and the width of the speakers, in a reasonably sized room, that should leave good 6-9' inner distance between the speakers. If you start losing the highs with a distance less than 6-8 feet, then there is something missing in your electronics (assuming the speakers are not rolled off). The point is to place the speakers as far apart such they are close to the side walls, or until you start losing the highs. Note that this is in contrast to the conventional position wherein a larger distance from the side wall is preferred. But now, with the non-conventional position, all parameters are different - you need the side walls to reinforce the bass, and the mid/highs reflections will not have a negative impact.

For testing, play some music in which there is a right, left and central image. For example, play Holly Cole Trio, Don't Smoke in the Bed. Holly Cole will be right in the middle. Right, there is nothing new here. But now is the time for a monkey walk again. Stand up from your listening seat, bend down a little (such that your ears are at the level of the mid-point on your speakers' mid/high driver, and walk on the straight line (midway between the speakers) towards the front wall, going between the speakers. You will feel you are floating into Holly Cole's image. Keep going until you touch your face to the wall -- you will feel as if you are kissing the central image. Now, turn around and look back. The central image will now be on your listening seat near the back wall. Now walk back and again you will be floating into the central image. In fact, the central image exists in the whole central axis front to back and back to front. And when you sit in your listening chair, the whole energy of the central image in that axis will be focused into the middle but with a three-dimensional effect. You have achieved soundstage synchronization. If you do not get this effect then you need to move your speakers bit by bit, left and right, and front and back until you achieve this effect maximally. I am not sure if cone drivers can give you that effect. By now you can probably guess that with toe-in, the back image gets out of focus and hence offsets the soundstage synchronization.

The next step is to determine the position of your listening seat. The starting point I recommend is 40% of the room length measuring from the speakers (thus leaving 20% from the back wall). There is no need to maintain any special ratio between the speakers and the distance from the speakers to the listening position, soundstage synchronization will be achieved by moving your seat plus minus one foot and stopping where you get the best image and mid/high/bass, all to be determined by you. Do experiment with it and make a final determination yourself.

This will give you the deepest, widest soundstage coupled with best imaging and best bass. The images from music will be painted on the front wall, side walls, in front and back of the speakers and many of them will give a three dimensional effect. Do experiment as it does not hurt to try. If it does not work for you, your room is not a good rectangle. If your wife or girlfriend gets in your way, try to convince her or bargain with her. And if that remains a problem the chances are she is not sensitive to your needs, implying that you may have to think of some more serious options.

Very important: Remove all acoustic treatment from your room before doing this. You can experiment with putting those things back after you are done with your positioning. The chances are you will not need them because the effect of room coupling and soundstage synchronization is so powerful with the results are so stunning that you will not really need any of those acoustic things, especially the tube traps because they will do more harm than good. But do experiment if you like and you might be happy with putting some of those panels back but they will probably require new positions.

 

RE: The Limage works. , posted on May 25, 2015 at 08:45:46
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
I like his reference to the Wife Placement Problem.

 

RE: I don't understand the directions., posted on April 25, 2023 at 03:37:00
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014
Hi,
if possible, I would like to see mating pictures of H/K Limage's room.

I'm making some new stands for the Timpany IDs and I'd like to understand how to optimize their position/listening.

Thank you
Rudy
TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

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