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Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods

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Posted on February 27, 2015 at 07:04:00
Voncarlos
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Joined: January 5, 2010
 I am starting to make wood frames for my Magnepan MGIIIa's.
I'm wondering what the general consensus has become on these, now that enough time has elapsed when this was such a topic 5 years ago.
I have read many past posts here and on several other forums and websites.
Now that time has past, what are the thoughts from folks that have done this?
Pluses and minuses or mistakes?

I have some walnut wood flooring pieces left over and will machine these up to use.







 

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RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on February 27, 2015 at 09:56:27
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 Check out my post here... http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=mug&m=213228 and do a search for my other posts. A friend and I built some out of oak and they turned out quite well. I am really impressed with them. I had Magnepan rebuild the panels and used foil for the mids. I had rebuilt them myself, but somehow moisture got into them, and I also had a problem with the mylar on one of the panels, so they completely rebuilt everything. They are as new now. If you take your time and do some research I am sure you will be pleased. I would be happy to pass along my experience if you wish. In addition Magnepan will replace the tweeters for a nominal charge. Magnepan is a great company. Check out this link as well. I got a lot of good ideas form them.
http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on February 27, 2015 at 18:51:47
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 There IS NO consensus on panel mods / reframe.
The Magnestand I've heard were GOOD with real wood. Others swear by metal reinforcement or a simple addition of 'Mye' stands. Part of the Magnestand changes involve crossover mods, so THAT's another factor to consider.
Some guys go after the pole piece with damping or even isolate the driver FROM the frame with some kind of vibration absorbent material.
Some will couple / spike to the floor. I've seen GRANITE used in stands. Other mods involve an element of isolation or CLD between panel/frame and the floor (CLD=Constrained Layer Damping)

So, if you want wood, Build 'em and they will come. Want bridgework? Break out the welding goggles. Corian? Aluminum? Plyboo?

Lots of discussion, some slightly heated, but little actual 'agreement'. The important thing is to HAVE FUN.

Too much is never enough

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 2, 2015 at 14:24:02
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 Someone sent a post to me supposedly from here. It appears that the link is invalid so I will include it as it has some real good information in it. I agree with the person that posted this that it is not a good idea to use composite flooring for the frames, as the purpose for using wood is to absorb the vibrations of the speaker, and composite does not do that well. You may as well use the original frames if you are going to do this as they are also a composite or MDF, and just go to the Mye Stands.... If you are going to get these rebuilt as I did, or rebuild them yourself, as I also did, but later had them rebuilt by Magnepan, use foil for the mids and you will not be dissatisfied. i am not sure what you are planning to use for crossovers but chuck the stock crossover, and go to an active crossover. I am using a stock DCX2496, plus I am going to add a MiniDSP later when I add my T-1 D's to the mix. So far the DCX sounds good to my ears, once I got it tweaked, and I know there is still a ways to go with it. I may also experiment with passive once I have everything sounding as I want, just to see what a good passive would sound like. I made extra large crossover boxes just in case, or I want to sell them later,,,Just one person's opinion. Anyway I hope you find this post helpful:

Do NOT respond to this email.

It is being forwarded to you per your request by the Asylum.

http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/MUG/messages/21/215069.html

Posted by Cory M.

I've been enjoying my wood frames for a few years now.
------------------------------
I'm not sure about any form of consensus, but I for one wouldn't dream of
going back to those glued sawdust "frames". I believe, from my experience,
that the hardwood frame project is one of the best improvements you can
make to an older Magneplanar speaker.

A lot of the people that were participating in those discussions of 5 or so
years ago that you speak of have either left the forum, or have been driven
off by generally grumpy folks who just have to be right, even though
they haven't actually tried the modification. Also, some just don't hang
out here often anymore because they have accomplished what they wanted to
achieve with their Magnepans (myself partially included ;-)). So, what I'm
alluding to is that you might not find a lot of long-standing, continual
opinions posted in response to your inquiry.

Anyway, I'm not all that well versed on the physics at work, but
here's my take on it:

When I mounted my IIIA drivers in hardwood frames, all of their inherent
qualities became more pronounced. Resolution improved. I attribute this to
secondary vibrations being drained and damped through the wood. This leaves
only the first movement, the one that the driver created, to be audible.
Small vibrations aren't obscured by internal standing waves. The driver
should also start and stop faster. Speed is even better than stock. They
have improved dynamics, one aspect that Maggies notoriously lack.
They're still not going to trounce good pistonic drivers and take the title
in this regard, however.

The IIIA's bass/ mid driver, as you know, is very flimsily fastened in the
stock MDF frames using staples. Contrastingly, the ribbons are firmly
affixed with 20 screws. I think that it's possible that Magnepan didn't
want to couple the bass/ mid driver to the MDF. That would likely
compound the mechanical standing wave issue. In a factory model, the
Magneplanar transducer is the speaker, afterall. The frame is just a
small baffle and a way to hold it up. When they're ridgidly mounted to a
hardwood frame, you should notice that the speaker's percieved efficiency
goes up also. The frame is working with the mylar as a vibrational
sink, absorbing and dissipating secondary motions. Some would say, much
like in nature when that wood was part of a tree and absorbing/ dissipating
wind movement.

You asked about mistakes. I think that using your leftover flooring planks
would be a huge one. Especially true if it's laminate. They are not
hardwood (even "engineered" is plywood), and would be much closer to the
original MDF. It would defeat the purpose entirely. You also want
continuous boards for the sides and bottoms.

I used pre-cut boards from Menard's for mine. Easy to work with. Cutting
lengths and widths are not even required with these. You have to be sure to
screen your boards for straightness before going ahead with them though.
Then, it's all down to the joining, gluing, routing, sanding and finishing.
Well worth the effort.

href="http://www.menards.com/main/building-materials/lumber/hardwood-lumber
/c-10067.htm">Pre- Cut hardwoods at Menard's

IIIA's in Mahogany




Close- Up

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 2, 2015 at 19:12:11
Voncarlos
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Joined: January 5, 2010
 Thanks for the replies Computerman.
I understand the principle of using solid hardwood, the flooring pieces I'm using are solid walnut. I'm a very accomplished woodworker so this is fairly easy for me to make.
I have made a pair of OB speakers that can be seen at this web forum: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59326.0
Thanks Again

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 00:49:20
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 What is wood if not a natural composite?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 03:08:22
Norman M
 Isn't all matter *composed* of a bunch of sub-atomic particles?
Maybe the difference lies in man-made vs. nature made?

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 06:51:32
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 I checked out your link..very nice!! I had a small wood shop at the present place I live, but I am moving soon and there is no place for it in my next residence, plus time restraints have curtailed my involvement with it. I was building guitars, so I am familiar with the equipment you have. It appears you have a great shop. I used an Incra routing table with a Triton 3.25 HP router. Plus I had all the other primary power goodies. Oddly enough a friend of mine built the frames for my Maggies, as I was not set up at the time to do so myself. Good luck with your build and keep us posted on your progress. I am sure we will all learn something.

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 09:25:51
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Look at enlarged pics of WOOD. You will have layers of differing density which will transmit vibes at different rates. I suspect differences ACROSS vs WITH the grain, as well. You may even have differences between 1/4sawn and plain sawn. I know the heartwood will be different than the growth areas of a a tree.

MDF is very homogeneous and I can't imagine its properties differing from one sheet to another OR in different directions thru the material.

See the provided link for some PICTURES and text. Just for informational purposes, Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard'. Balsa is a hardwood. It is all a matter of CONSTRUCTION of the wood.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 13:15:02
Norman M
 'Pictureguy', Thanks for your reply, I believe all that you posted is absolutely correct. What I had written was 99.9% in jest. I'm sorry if you had taken it seriously.

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on March 3, 2015 at 14:40:00
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Sorry I took you 'seriously' . This frame situation has been a REAL bone of contention for several years now. I'm not in the least put out. But, that being said, I would like to eventually reach SOME agreement about frames. To that end, a THEORETICAL framework which makes verifieable predictions sure would help.
Stiffen? Absorb? Reflect? Isolate? Couple? Dampen the PP? Screw driver to frame? Clamp driver to frame? (my idea) Spike to floor? CLD between base and floor? Corian? Aluminum? REAL Wood? Synthetic product? MODIFIED real product? (PlyBoo, for example)
Have a Seance? Use a Ouija Board? Burn Incense? Get drunk and put on some Dead?

Everyone is talking past each other without a listening to others. Few physics principles are involved and not everyone is equipped to evaluate them.

I have my OWN ideas, based on some listening to Gunn'd panels AND Apogee panels as well as winnowing thru dozens (maybe LOTS more!) of posts with some patterns emerging.

Have fun


Too much is never enough

 

Ah, there it is..., posted on March 3, 2015 at 21:56:05
Cory M.
Audiophile

Posts: 1172
Location: Midwest
Joined: April 10, 2005
 Thanks, Computerman. And, my apologies for unintentionally sending that to you. I must have included something in the text that didn't jibe with Audio Asylum's system... that's the only thing I can think of. Or, maybe operator error. That couldn't happen, could it?

I've read through a lot of your posts BTW. Nice looking IIIA's! I really admire how you've isolated the ribbons from the bass/ mid (and low bass Tympani) panels.

I am really thinking of going with MiniDSP's on my subs soon, maybe trying them up top even, also. Sounds like Andy R. is jumping in, too! One thing is for sure, they sure are a deal if they sound good at all.

FWIW, I liked the results I got with a good passive speaker level setup better than the sound I had with an Ashly 3 Way active line level unit. It just seemed to color the sound too much. Then again, that is a pro unit, and it sounded very "transistory" for lack of a better word.

Your active setup now with the DCX2496 should eat most any passive XO for lunch.

Gotta get some sleep now, chat later.




Cory


 

RE: Ah, there it is..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 01:16:37
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I do not think there is a consensus on this matter. I have not seen any vibrational analysis on different types of baffles/frames. An easy way is to use a tuning fork and hold it to the baffle/frame. Wood, particle board, platsics, concrete, metal, laminations of various materials, they all have their properties. Personally, I am against a single solid type of material. I prefer to mix materials with different properties. The way the baffle/frame of Magnepan speakers is made, it is very flimsy. Are we sure that the flimsiness is all bad? Is the opposite what we want? What will sturdiness do? If we want to absorb energy, what materials will do that? Hard and sturdy? To me, a hard and solid material will not absorb very much. It will probably have a high transfer speed of vibrations but it will not absorb them much. Is not high absorption = high loss of energy?

 

RE: Ah, there it is..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 15:05:11
computerman
Audiophile

Posts: 491
Location: Northeast
Joined: August 31, 2011
 Thanks for the kind comments Cory. As you probably figured, I molded my Maggies after the "Gunned" ones or "Magnestands" I thought that esthetically they were a piece of art, and the comments by owners confirmed my suspicions with the sound. I did my best to come as close as I could,
I later started building guitars, but that has been interrupted by my moving to a new apartment...no room for all the power tools. I was building electrics. Learned a lot though and ended up with a real nice tele style made from "mystery wood". It sounds great, so one never knows what the final outcome of an instrument like a guitar or a pair of speakers, will be, and I do believe that when they are used like inmates here use them, then they come at least close to being instruments. We "play" them, modify and even build them, tweak them, play with sonic characteristics, etc. Perhaps if we started thinking of speakers as fine instruments that need tuning...well the results might be different. It takes a lot of experience to get these things sounding good, and I think that some inmates here are artists in their own right.
My Maggies are also coupled to the floor with spikes, and I do believe that it makes quite a difference.
As to the crossover, you are the first in any of my posts to state what you said about the DCX2496. It does have quite a following, plus one can put way more money into modding it than it costs. I also had a TDM active crossover similar to your Ashley. When I replaced it with the DCX I noticed an immediate improvement that was quite significant...when I add the Tympani's back into the mix, it can only get better. There is a pair of T-IV's on eBay for about 2000. hmmmm. Maybe in the future. I would love to also add a row of Neo-8's, and just use them and the tweeter, as I do hold with the belief that separate panels are better. When I use just the mids and tweeters with T-1 D's, well about all I can say is WOW! Satie thought that it would be viable to use an extra amp I have for the IIIa bass, and go four way. I was thinking of adding a MiniDSP for the fourth split. What I don't quite get is how would I connect my Sunfire TGP-5 to the crossovers? Right now I am using the two main outs to the DCX, so how does one add an additional channel? Is using the surround outs possible?

 

"Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 17:24:05
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 AIUI, whether any particular tree is defined as a 'hardwood' or a 'softwood' is to do with whether or not it has flowers? So, as you say, balsa is thus defined as a 'hardwood', even though it is so soft you can easily indent it with your fingernail.

Andy

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 18:04:48
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 As near as I can tell,
This link is Accurate.

It hinges on Balsa being an 'angiosperm'

I learned this particular bit of weirdness in WOODSHOP while going over just what wood IS. how it looks and some of the engineering aspects of HOW it works.

That's how come I'm so BIG on wood when it comes to 'reframe' of Maggies! Most everything I learned in class Jives with what PG used to rant about.


Too much is never enough

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 18:20:57
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Some people here, pguy, just won't accept anything that PG says. ;-))

I don't know if you're aware of some listening experiments some memebers of TNT Audio did, where they built solid hardwood cabinets for some small speakers and then compared the sounds produced by the speaker which had the stock MDF cabinet with the same drivers in the solid wood cabinets.

The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets "sucked the life out of the music", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!

Booply sounds like an interesting material to make Maggie frames from! There's a company in the UK has come out with a Linn LP12 plinth machined from a solid block of booply - so no braced & mitred corners to make the box! Supposed to sound very good. :-))


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 4, 2015 at 21:18:46
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008



PG might still be a bone of contention. I'm not going into detail. My interactions with the guy were always reasonable. However, I can see how he bent some personas the wrong way.
That being said, he made a certain sense to me from the standpoint of materials. I don't agree with all his conclusions AND upon inspection of 2 sets of his panels, also do NOT agree with some of his construction techniques and choices. I'll say no more.

I have some ideas of my own, concerning NO metal in the frame, low mass / high rigidity and use of wood. I'd LOVE to try bamboo! No screws thru the drivers and use of CLAMPS for that function while I have an idea for FLOATING the driver in the frame while still being in very firm contact. This will allow for expansion / contraction and no warp. Somebody mentioned the pole piece and that set off another round of thought and a design target. I'll not go into details since this will result in more trod-upon toes. The last feaure is the frame is NOT square but rather a truncated shape ALA Apogee. I will include an image of THAT here and now, but this doens't even quite match my final design.

Dealing with REAL wood in a production shop making box speakers must be a nightmare. You are at the MERCY of suppliers of quality wood, tooling, WEATHER and finding hi-end and dedicated help. No thanks!

Too much is never enough

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 06:01:14
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 andyr wrote:

"The easy - and unanimous - decision was that the MDF cabinets "sucked the life out of the music", compared to the solid wood cabinets. But why do spkr mfrs use it? It's cheap, easy to machine and stable!"

This is a reason to why music boxes or acoustic instruments are built of wood and not MDF... A wooden box really sounds louder but it may not be closely related to the input signal. Distorsion and resonances always make the perceived sound sound louder.

 

RE: Ah, there it is..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 11:06:07
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 keep in mind that wood is 'natures composite' and has a distributed response to vibrational input. Wood is NOT homogeneous and even responds differently in different directions.
This is for Maggies.
Tuned enclosures, of course, are different and can have quite a sharp resonance if so designed.

My mental model is the 'PIE". Each slice of the pie is one factor. Rigidity? Mass? and so on down the list. The pie is ONLY so big and you must apportion your 'needs' among the choices, realizing that optimizing or increasing the performance in ONE category may have influence over OTHER parameters in the design.
Thru ingenious use of design and materials, it MAY be possible to make the pie somewhat larger, but in the end you still have choices to make.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 19:33:16
Voncarlos
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Joined: January 5, 2010



Your pic got me thinking about what I might be able to do with my frames.

 

RE: "Hardwoods are not necessarily 'hard' " ..., posted on March 5, 2015 at 19:37:08
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Now you're Talkin'!

Run thru the models in your head, draw in SKETCHUP or other drawing / engineering program and you're good to go.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on August 20, 2021 at 07:59:21
Voncarlos
Audiophile

Posts: 29
Joined: January 5, 2010
 Well, after 6 years of sitting uncompleted I have finally finished these MGIIIa walnut frames. At the time, I had too many other projects to do. Now I've finished with those and before I started on new ones, I wanted to get these frames quickly completed.
I wasn't too concerned about the artistic and perfectionist look, just wanted to listen to music presented as a realistic stage.
I deliberately didn't want to change the x-over components, just lay them out better, get them off the frame, and hard wire them. That, so I could better judge the new frames.
The bottom platform is weighted with about 45lbs.
My listening room is small so I've added a bit of absorption panels to control an unruly bass. I've removed the red ones since having the new frames and the upper panels have a foil on the facing side . The new frames have improved the bass quite a lot.













 

Even though I've now moved on to a pair of 3.6Rs..., posted on September 4, 2021 at 16:06:57
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2202
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 ...a number of years ago had my 1.6QRs modded with the Peter Gunn Magnestand mod. Even though I was less than impressed with the new crossover, feeling like it made things too forward in the midrange, I WAS impressed with them in the areas of dynamics and clarity, which likely, though not provably, would have been due to the hardwood frames. Pleased to see that you have completed your set, which look very nice. Would love to do that with my 3.6Rs.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Wood Frames for MGIIIa and general consensus on mods, posted on September 11, 2021 at 20:11:52
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 What would your reaction be to PlyBoo.......Bamboo Plywood?
Too much is never enough

 

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