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fuses

140.98.210.243
Posted on January 22, 2015 at 09:36:25
DTS ma 7.2
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: New Jersey
Joined: January 13, 2015
 I have just been looking for hifi fuses, shocked at the prices,
Cardas 3a large blow were $89.00 each. parts connection is $59
can they be had cheaper or a different brand be a better price?,

also do i need slow or fast blo ?.
Nicolas

 

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RE: fuses, posted on January 22, 2015 at 12:10:40
DavidJames
Audiophile

Posts: 184
Joined: January 13, 2004
 Hi-Fi fuses are snake oil. They are expensive because audiophiles are among the most gullible hobbyists around.

 

Or... no fuses., posted on January 22, 2015 at 12:27:55
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 I'm not saying you should, but many bypass the fuses altogether. If you consider this, ensure you have played your system as loud as you are comfortable without having blown any fuses.
And if you do, I'd go wire to wire if possible, bypass the entire fuse and fuse holder. If you switch amps or cabling, put'em back in until you are comfy again.
That will gain an improvement, hi-fi fuses are somewhat subjective.

 

IMHO...get them good and broke in...., posted on January 22, 2015 at 14:22:52
Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: MN
Joined: January 31, 2010
 Learn how they sound after 200+ hours, so when you make subtle changes, fuses qualify as subtle IMHO...you can really hear for better or worse or no change...

I am going to do the fuse by-pass...soon...this is after living with stock fuses for 16 months, happily mind you...I wanted to make sure how hard I could push them...

Congrats on the MMG's...enjoy
thanks
Mark

 

Some more thoughts on fuses., posted on January 22, 2015 at 14:40:14
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Despite popular opinion, standard fuses offer no protection for speakers and there are several reports on this forum of the ribbon tweeter successfully saving a fuse from certain death. BTW, the ribbon tweeter costs about $100 which is almost the same as those high-end fuses.
Here is an article by Rod Elliott and why fuses are not protective. You may not want to read the whole thing but drop down to item #10 for a quick explanation.




"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: IMHO...get them good and broke in...., posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:05:01
DTS ma 7.2
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: New Jersey
Joined: January 13, 2015
 Thanks , the only reason to have the fuse is if you are running them with

a low watt receiver, or so i have read, i have ordered the mapleshade

copper resistors. I think i want to buy

sound anchors stands first, for the cost of two fuses.
Nicolas

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:39:19
Potrzebie
 I replaced the fuses with copper bars, and get a big improvement in the mid to high frequencies. Quick and easy, with the option of putting the fuses back if my system, for resale, or if the volume is pushed by a high volume idiot, when I am not in the room.

I disagree with neolith regarding the safety of normal fuses when the amp is driven into clipping. My tweeters were saved with normal fuses, in my early days, of high volume demos.

Since then I know I can play very loud, (but not INSANELY loud], without fuses.

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:35:20
Davey
 You're speculating.
Just because the fuses blew doesn't mean your tweeters wouldn't have survived. It's not an either-or situation.
There are other variables at work.

Dave.

 

You don't seem to get what neo's suggesting (which I, for one, agree with) ..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:35:35
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 The fuse holders which Magnepan use degrade the sound - even if you have a $100 HiFi Tuning fuse in them. So if you want to get maximum SQ from your fancy fuse purchase ... replace the fuse holders with, say, an Acme Audio Labs cryoed fuse holder. However, you might have to make up a little angle-bracket to attach it to the frame.

Secondly, talking about the fuse on the ribbon:
* I'm assuming 'copper bar' means something that's a similar diameter to a fuse - so 1/4" (4g)?
* HFs, IMO, sound much better when they go through thin wire - say 18g, max. So you are not getting the best sound you could get, given the stock fuse holders.
* Yes, the copper bar sounds better than the stock fuse but you will get a much clearer sound by replacing the 'bar' by, say 4 strands of teflon-insulated solid-core wire - like you get from Cat5/Cat6 cable.

But still not as good as bypassing the fuse altogether.

Your Aussie mate,

Andy

 

RE: fuses, posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:38:07
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Many panel users DELETE the fuse altogether and than go into the connection panel and rewire to eliminate several connections. This may have more positive sonic consequences than going to some wacky expensive fuse.

If I were concerned with fuse 'sound' I'd buy ceramic.

Do NOT delete the fuse if you are either NEW to panels OR your new panels are fairly new. Wait until they and YOU are well beyond new. Maybe a year. If during that time, you NEVER pop a fuse, go ahead and delete.

Panels typically use Regular fuses, NOT slo-blo.

Owners of panels with Ribbon tweeters may have some unique input.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:39:46
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Grant, look what I posted, above, before reading YOUR contribution!
Too much is never enough

 

Take one look..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 21:34:35
DragonEars
Audiophile

Posts: 662
Location: PNW
Joined: March 15, 2006
 .
Take one look at the fuse holder, wires and wire spades and you will forget about putting an expensive fuse in there.

You would be better off removing the fuse, fuse holder, wire and spades. As andyr already suggested there are good quality, relatively inexpensive fuse holders available. Since the MMGs use a QR tweeter and not a true ribbon, they will take some abuse and Magnepan will replace them for a reasonable fee. You have a good amp with lots of clean power, I personally would feel comfortable running them without fuses. In fact my MMGs do not have fuses. They are Magnestand modded and that includes eliminating the fuse, holder, wires, spades, etc..

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 23, 2015 at 07:26:26
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Brothers from another mother, and from a different country... well, you get it. :) Darn near verbatim.

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on January 23, 2015 at 10:02:08
Norman M
 Now wait a minute, Maggie's fuse holders and the use of fuses bug people out. But at the same time they are happy using active X-Os whose electronic artifacts will be AMPLIFIED before reaching one's ears, no way I say (and having said so too many time before). Idiots and seniors like myself are known to be forgetful. So often I inadvertently switch into a source set to play at too high a level, and wham-o pop goes some fuse(s). In my default settings, the phono output is much greater than my line level outputs. So very often when comparing a LP to its CD counterpart, in haste I instantaneously switch between the two without making the necessary adjustments and before having adjusted their levels. (I maintain a stock of fast blow 2.5 and 3 amp fuses acquired from the rat shack because I anticipate doing more of the same. IAE it's much simpler and faster to swap fuses than it is for ribbon tweets.) In the pre-CD age I somehow was able to connect to a tape recorder's bias signal (and although being at some ultra-high frequency) I very briefly heard a weird high pitched sound before destroying fuses. All said because one needn't play LOUD to burn fuses.

 

RE: fuses, posted on January 23, 2015 at 12:41:45
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 One more attempt to clarify what fuses do (or don't do) for speakers. First in the event of a catastrophic event (i.e. sudden high current event) a fuse should melt and leave a gap large enough that there is no arcing across the severed ends. The higher the voltage rating the wider the gap but this is independent of the current rating. With a planar magnet or quasi ribbon, the fuse element is definitely the weak link (as it should be) and will blow before the tweeter is damaged. That does NOT mean the fuse protected the tweeter as these tweeters are pretty tough and probably would not be damaged by short high current conditions. However with the ribbon tweeters which are much more fragile these may blow before the fuse -- it's all about which one gets to the melting point first.
Now with sustained high signals the tweeter may begin to heat up. However as the tweeter gets warmer the current flow decreases and the fuse, having less current will remain intact and fail to reach it's melting point. Hence no protection!
Everything else is antecdotal and not proof of protection. If you want to protect your tweeters wire in a low voltage light bulb, that way when the signal intensity increases the resistance of the bulb also increases with a resultant bigger voltage drop, thus protecting the tweeter. The tweeter will get quieter but not stop functioning and everyone is happy.
One other thing. Ceramic fuses are not less or more noisy than glass. They merely better contain any arcing which might occur when the fuse blows and therefore are safe in potentially explosive applications such as an operating room with oxygen or in a mine or other workplace with volatile chemicals.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: fuses, posted on January 23, 2015 at 14:41:21
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Hey, everyone knows that the purpose of the ribbon tweeter is to protect the fuse. :-)

 

RE: fuses, posted on January 23, 2015 at 18:30:19
Davey
 I wouldn't use a light bulb. A resettable polyswitch is the preferred device for protection if it is needed.

Here's a nice example:

http://www.parts-express.com/raychem-te-connectivity-rxe135-135a-polyswitch--071-264

Dave.

 

RE: fuses, posted on January 23, 2015 at 20:00:34
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 Neo, the 'vibration' guys like the ceramics because the active element is damped with some kind of filler inside the 'tube'. That's THEIR story.

For me? I'll simply delete the fuse and a bunch of extra wire and connections since I've not had ANY fuse problem with my 1.6s and before that the 1.5amp in my MG-1s popping was MY fault.

Also, aren't there a class of FAST BLOW and ULTRA fast blow, the fastest of which are used to protect the gates of delicate transistors in difficult to change or fix environments?
Too much is never enough

 

That, and they sound great if left stock. nt, posted on January 23, 2015 at 21:36:28
DragonEars
Audiophile

Posts: 662
Location: PNW
Joined: March 15, 2006
 .

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 24, 2015 at 00:03:35
Potrzebie
 Give me one example of the tweeter blowing and the fuse not!

 

RE: You don't seem to get what neo's suggesting (which I, for one, agree with) ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 00:07:34
Potrzebie
 Bypassing the fuse holder has no effect on sonics. A"cryoed" fuseholder? LOL!

Name one incident of the tweeter failing, and the fuse was still good.

 

Well, Norman ... I am not quite as 'senior' as I suspect you are but ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 00:21:46
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I don't have your problem (blowing a ribbon when comparing an LP to its CD counterpart, before having adjusted their levels). I say 'ribbon' because I don't use fuses! :-))

Now, I'm 'only' 65 and I run 3-way active Maggies ... so why don't I have this problem?

Simple - the output from my phono stage is comparable to the output from my CDP. Not exactly the same ... but all it needs is, maybe, a 10 deg turn of the volume knob to get the same volume when switching from one to the other.

So I suggest you need to get a new phono stage with less gain - because I think you are implying your LPs are louder than your CDs? (If not, get a phono stage with more gain!) Then you can do away with fuses and get a significant increase in SQ. :-))


Regards,

Andy

 

Name one incident of the tweeter failing, and the fuse was still good ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 01:34:28
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 There have been quite a few reports of this over the last 15 years or so, on Planar Asylum.

But you can do a simple experiment, if you're game to put your money where your mouth is. Simply use, say, a 50w ss amplifier (whose spec is 50w into 8 ohms & 70w into 4 ohms ... so not a 'stiff' power supply!) to play your Maggies at the loudest level you listen to. If you actually do have 3.x Maggies (or 20.x), one or both of your ribbons should blow (due to the HF harmonics produced by clipping) ... however the ribbon fuses will remain intact because you're not actually running too much current through them.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on January 24, 2015 at 03:52:09
Davey
 As Andy mentioned, it's happened to a number of folks on this forum through the years. Do a search and you'll find them.

Interesting heating effects that happen in the fuses and mechanical effects with true ribbons. It's unusual, but with the right conditions, it's possible to open the ribbon while the fuse remains intact.

Dave.

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 09:32:03
Davey
 Regardless of fusing, you could easily attenuate the output of your phono amp to equalize the nominal volume difference. Just a few dollars worth of resistors.

Dave.

 

RE: Well, Norman ... I am not quite as 'senior' as I suspect you are but ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 09:39:15
Norman M
 Thanks "andyr" for your suggestion.

"So I suggest you need to get a new phono stage with less gain - because I think you are implying your LPs are louder than your CDs? (If not, get a phono stage with more gain!) Then you can do away with fuses and get a significant increase in SQ. :-))"

Yes, my pre-amp's phono output is greater than that from my CDPs.

You might have meant to write get a phono stage with *less* gain, either way one of us is having a 'senior moment'. Alternatively I could seek a phono cartridge having a lower output level. I don't really think I want to adopt either of those two alternatives since desiring the highest signal to noise ratio, that would degrade the SQ when listening to LPs.
(In choosing a MM phono cartridge, one of the characteristics I always select for are those having highest output level, ~4.5 to 5.0mV) OTOH I might better employ one of those portable amplifiers (e.g. NuForce) or a headphone amp to increase the signal level from my CDP.

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 10:08:18
Norman M
 "Regardless of fusing, you could easily attenuate the output of your phono amp to equalize the nominal volume difference. Just a few dollars worth of resistors."

Also including the use of a little soldering iron, (which when in my hands would most likely destroy the whole works)? Easy for you, deefeecult for me.

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 10:14:04
Davey
 Absolutely not. There are some easy commercial products built precisely for this purpose. Here's an example of a simple 6db attenuator.

http://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-6-db-rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-pair--266-242

Folks in the Pro-audio world use these kind of things all the time.

Dave.

 

There is another simple possibility (which Davey alluded to) ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 13:13:55
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Inside your phono stage put (or get a tech to put) a voltage-divider on the output RCAs.

This will enable the actual output level to be reduced - the resistor values depend on:
1. the current output impedance of your phono stage
2. the output signal level of your phono stage, and
3. the output signal level of your CDP.


I can give you the values if you give me the answers to the above facts. Davey could, too.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 13:56:16
Norman M
 Thank you very much Davey, I'll be buying them. (You are however aware that you suggested that I could install resistors, I think that implies an entirely different game. Just as importantly, I could easily remove those attenuators, if and when I so desired.)

 

"Ceramic fuses are not less or more noisy than glass." ..., posted on January 24, 2015 at 22:04:25
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Sorry, I don't believe you are correct, neo. ;-))

A long time ago, on one of my visits to the local RS Components warehouse for some fuses, the guy behind the counter suggested I buy ceramic fuses unstead of the normal glass ones I was going to buy.

He said that the traffic cops bought them for their radar guns, as they introduced less noise into the radar guns - and hence more reliable readings.

So I have stuck with them every since (for electronics, not Maggies).


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: "Ceramic fuses are not less or more noisy than glass." ..., posted on January 25, 2015 at 07:26:21
Davey
 I have to write that one down.....for the next time I get pulled over in my Corvette. "Officer, I need to check the fuses in your radar gun."
I'll use that on the traffic court judge too. :)

I suspect there's more to this story than meets the eye. I would like to discuss it with the radar gun technician who supplied those Australian traffic cops. He was probably an audiophile. :)

Dave.

 

Sure, it's an amazing story ..., posted on January 25, 2015 at 12:04:26
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 but it makes sense if, as I understand it, a standard glass fuse is just the wire in gree air ... whereas in a ceramic fuse, there is material around the wire?


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: "Ceramic fuses are not less or more noisy than glass." ..., posted on January 26, 2015 at 11:26:48
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Jeez Andy, I didn't realize that. I guess on the basis of a RS guy (we all know how knowledgeable about electronics they are) I will have to change my ideas on ceramic fuses. Then again, I suspect the guys on the cable forum will say that the dielectric constant of the ceramic, being higher than air, adversely affects the signal. OTOH the Tweak Freaks probably could balance that by scattering some pebbles and crystals around the room.
Sorry mate, I am feeling a bit feisty today :).

Talking about noise, I see you are considering getting miniDSP's. I thought I read in this forum that they were noisy. I am not sure about that but I do wonder why you would want to convert the vinyl to a digital signal only to convert it back to analog again. Why not modify your analog xo's? Did I miss something in your post on Digital.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: "Did I miss something in your post on Digital." ..., posted on January 26, 2015 at 12:03:36
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 Yes, neo! :-)). My latest post will provide some more explanation.


Regards,

Andy

 

RE: Sure, it's an amazing story ..., posted on January 27, 2015 at 14:14:59
old guy 42
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Location: Eastern Pa
Joined: August 12, 2012
Contributor
  Since: August 26, 2012



Hi. Andy;

I was also curious about ceramic fuses, so I "looked" inside one. This fuse is a "Ferraz Shawmut." It's hollow with NO material around the wire.

Take care....old guy

 

How very interesting. Thanks for doing that. nt, posted on January 27, 2015 at 14:19:41
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 .

 

Provide a link, I do not believe you, nt, posted on February 1, 2015 at 19:47:56
Potrzebie
 nt

 

You don't need a link, mate ..., posted on February 1, 2015 at 22:34:01
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12548
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 You seem to be the kinda guy who needs proof positive with your own eyes, rather than reading a link (which you won't believe when you read it, anyway).

So just get off your fat A and do the experiment I suggested.

Andy

 

RE: Provide a link, I do not believe you, nt, posted on February 2, 2015 at 05:11:32
old guy 42
Audiophile

Posts: 388
Location: Eastern Pa
Joined: August 12, 2012
Contributor
  Since: August 26, 2012
 FWIW

Check link.

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on February 2, 2015 at 11:25:58
Norman M
 Thanks Davey, attenuators (gold colored) in use and have brought everything within good control:



 

RE: Take one look..., posted on February 2, 2015 at 11:40:08
Davey
 Good deal. I think I can read 6db on the side of those. FYI, they also have 3db and 12db versions of those. They're kind of handy to have sometimes. :)

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: Or... no fuses., posted on February 2, 2015 at 12:01:33
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I replaced the JUMPERS on my 1.6s with handmade parts of #6 copper wire. It is a LITTLE too big in diameter, but some spin sanding fixed THAT. They need to be pulled every 6 months for de-oxing.
I think the fuse size equivilent is #4 solid, but I'd have to go look at the chart again.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Take one look..., posted on February 2, 2015 at 15:19:23
Norman M
 Correct all around Davey, they are 6db and it would be useful to have some of different values, only downside being they 'ain't' exactly inexpensive. (However, quality never comes cheap, and at least they appear to be very well done.)

 

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