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off topic to the tympani discussion

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Posted on December 3, 2014 at 21:03:09
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 But has any one tried double maggies? FRont pair set up AD normal side pair set up facing outboard. Amazing sound Holographic behind speakers with superb bass. YOu can use mismatched sizes just use larger pair up front.

WHen I worked for a Maggie dealer,Wendall Diller threatened to cut us off if we demoed system. DOuble pair of 3's were fantastic

 

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RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 3, 2014 at 21:47:06
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I have been trying to get people to do this. Davy (uk) tried it just once but then he didn't have proper amps for both speakers. (He still has at least two 3 series speaker pairs fully restored.)

Not that many have two pairs of maggies to play with.

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 4, 2014 at 14:43:58
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 I have a pair of 3a's and a pair of 3.7i's and several amps. How exactly do I set it up?

Is it like an L shape with the older pair facing out? Any certain tweeter configuration? How far from side wall?

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 4, 2014 at 18:32:19
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 We were discussing this a few years back. No one could remember the exact orientation and polarity or appropriate distances to front wall or sidewalls.

As a WAG try it in roughly the current location with the IIIa as back wings on the outside with the tweeters of the front 3.7i inside and the IIIA tweeters in the back away from the corner, facing to the sidewalls. That would make the corner bass panels.

Option 2 is the corner where the speakers meet are the tweeters, both speakers facing out and the two ribbons would cover a 270 degree arc nearly like an omnidirectional speaker. I suppose you would want the tweeters 3 ft or more away from the sidewalls and leave yourself a listening triangle with a bit of room behind your head.

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 4, 2014 at 18:55:15
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Front pair as normal. Outboard pair tweeters out board,IIRC. Outboard pair at about 90 degress to normal pair. ANgle has to be played with depending on room etc . We had a big high current amp so could run the pair in parallel

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 05:48:58
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014



Greetings to all...
This is my first post (sorry for my english ) .
I thought it may be interesting to send
photos of my solution with Tympani ID .

Good Music

Rudy
TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 08:38:04
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Rudy,

can you explain what kind of special Magnepan speaker that is?

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 09:56:50
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014



It is not "special" but Tympani ID with TW in the center between the woofer and Mid Woofer.
TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 12:01:06
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014



More photos...

TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 12:05:09
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Thanks guys. I will give it a try next week.

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 5, 2014 at 12:05:19
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014



More photos...

TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 6, 2014 at 06:11:41
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 So how do you run these?

Separately or use them together for T ID bass and T ID "ambiance" tweeter. Are they run full range with the Quad 63?

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 6, 2014 at 06:43:00
r3332698049
Audiophile

Posts: 27
Location: Roma
Joined: November 18, 2014
 Listening separate:
ESL63 with Quad 405-2 mod. Bernd Ludwig.
Tympani ID with final mono Grant-Lumley with KT88 -Z Treasures.
Pre-Ming Da MC-2A3 ... waiting for Audible Illusions M3A/B used.

good Music

Rudy
TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 15, 2014 at 09:04:21
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Wow!

I connected two pairs of three series to my amp and the results are pretty startling.

I first set the older 3a's at a 90 degree angle. The 3.7i's were parallel to FW about 7.5 feet into room tweets in. The 3a was parallel to SW and about 30 inches in and tweets to the rear. This sounded interesting and full but had a Venetian blind effect on frequency with huge dips and peaks. So, I angled the side speakers out in a Rooze type configuration. This fixed the frequency anomalies with the single exception of a narrow suck out of 7 Db at 100 hz. Frequency is now flat from 20 to highest treble with the exception of this single valley (I have a sub for lowest frequencies). It does rise a bit at 5khz and above compared to the 3.7 alone.

The sound is more full. More three dimensional. More real. The soundstage goes WAY beyond the side of the speakers. Making even old fashioned hard panned stereo sound amazingly life like. In general, it pulled the music forward a bit compared to the 3.7i alone.

The only time I ever heard anything similar was with the large MBLs at shows. To clarify -- other than the width of the stage -- the effect Isn't an enlarging of the stage, it is a fleshing out of instruments and vocalists. Everything becomes more substantive and less ethereal. I know longer hear what Paul McCartney sounds like, it now sounds like Paul (and his blackbird) is in the room. Eerie.

It doesn't seem to be much louder, but it seems to have more weight for the volume setting.

However, the bass is not quite as tight as before. There is now also a hint of upper mid glare (possibly a symptom of the 3a being added to the ultra smooth 3.7i.)

I am using an Emotiva XPA1 rated at 1700 watts into two ohms and it is running cool with no strain. Soon I will try running a separate set of amps to the side firing speakers, but this is mainly for peace of mind and ease of comparing it with and without the second pair.

I need to see what further tweaking will do. Messing now with toe in and side wall treatment. Very interesting.

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 15, 2014 at 10:11:11
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Hi Swami,

Can you measure the angle by which you took the side speakers out?

Have you tried toeing in the front speakers any? Unlike prior models the 3.7i is supposed to be angled on axis to the listener as per maggie rec's.

Did you try with tweeters front on the side speakers?

This is very interesting. Thanks so much for trying it out.

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 15, 2014 at 11:50:35
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Yeah, my third iteration toed the front speaker in (the 3.7i definitely likes toe in). This got the bass panels more in line rather than stretching the bass backward and muddying up the time alignment quite so much. Still not world class bass though.

So the fronts are angled directly at me about seven feet apart. The sides are currently at almost a Roose set up with I would guess a 110 degree angle or so off the fronts. This places the tweets on the side firing speakers within 15 inches of the side wall. I experimented with some absorbing materials on the side walls.

The resulting sound is definitely not bass heavy. Indeed I can get more bass by adding my DWMs (which I am not using currently). There is still a small and pleasant presence dip which seems inherent in the 3.7i in my room (the newest Maggies are much smoother than my 25 year old pair). I kind of like the very mild boost over 5000 hz.

I suspect the Achilles heel of this setup is I can't get both the bass time aligned and the upper range side firing at the same time.

That said, it really sounds realistic. Guitars are THERE. Brass is palpable. Vocalists have weight and air around their heads like I have never heard before.

Oddly, in a way, the MaggieS sound more like a conventional speaker than normal. The operative word seems to be less EPHEMERAL.

I have not tried tweets to the front as I fear it will stretch the bass out even more. I can though.

Any other ideas? Does anyone else have two pairs?

 

RE: off topic to the tympani discussion, posted on December 15, 2014 at 12:33:07
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I think what you are getting in the sense of more concrete thick midbass and lower mids and the box like thickness to the sound there is the result of changing from cardioid to side-pole or cross cardioid pattern that is like a half of an omnidirectional - like a box speaker is omni' below a certain frequency. But with the other half circle of radiation being out of phase.

If the half-omni idea is a useful model, then pulling the "wing" inwards to make a "T" with the center (or a bit less than center) of the front facing bass panel might improve timing (take it as a WAG) as it gets the "virtual" center of the half omni closer to the centers of the two panels. It would also get the tweeters away from the sidewalls, which I think is important. Of course there are all sorts of reflection issues that were confined to the back waves which might spoil things, but it is worth a try.

I guess you will need to lift the side speakers with little blocks to get over the front speaker's legs, if you have not done so already.

If I come up with any more speculations and potential tweaks to the setup I will post them.

 

LOL. !!!!, posted on December 15, 2014 at 23:19:04
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Simple experiment although as in ANY speaker set up experimentation is absolutely necessary to adapt to different room environments.

Still there will always be armchair theorists......

 

RE: LOL. !!!!, posted on December 16, 2014 at 02:50:28
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Hey, I would of loved to try this myself but don't have 2 big maggies to play with.

So I am going on vicariously and trying to guess which way to go so Swami gets better performance. Part of that is speculating on the causes of what he observed in the context of what he did. Hopefully what I am doing is helping.

If it sounds like gibberish it is probably because most of it will eventually prove to be just that.

 

RE: LOL. !!!!, posted on December 16, 2014 at 07:54:20
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 It is fun playing around with the combos of two sets of speakers.

Tried the 3a's alone for the first time in months. I was amazed at how much better the new models were in dynamics. I only noticed it after living with the better speaker for so long. Even with DWMs (or without) the 3a simply cannot manage the dynamic realism of the 3.7i. It is like there is a pillow over the speaker bluring micro dynamics and transient attack.

Latest two set experiment was to try the T setup. What I did was move the side firing speakers up 8 inches or so and put them in a pure Rooze set up (panels exactly side on to listening position so I can only hear reflections). This got the woofers roughly aligned as Satie suggested (I think)

The effect of the second pair is real subtle now. Slightly tilts up highest treble and adds air and three dimensionally to the instruments and vocals. Also still stretches the soundstage wider. It adds power much more so than volume. Indeed I repeatedly forgot if I had the ambience speakers on or off.

So far I prefer the 3.7i alone the best (8 feet from FW (40%),15 inches from SW toed in almost to listening position -- kind of a modified Limage)

Close second is the 3.7i with the 3a as ambience speakers as above.

Third place would be the 3a with DWM and fourth would be the 3a alone.

Each has strengths and weaknesses though. For example the lower bass on the 3a is killer.

Still playing. I really want to experiment with the two sets of speakers before moving my old ones upstairs.

 

RE: LOL. !!!!, posted on December 16, 2014 at 10:27:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Very good to know. I was wondering if that T setup would create more problems than it solves. Can you post a pic of the setup so we can see the geometry in the context of the room?

Have you tried the tweeter to tweeter positioning? Flipping the side speaker to tweeter closer to the listener on the outside (not a T setup.

Thanks

 

BTW, posted on December 16, 2014 at 21:43:36
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Works with smaller 'pans too, or even mismatched models. Originally tried as a replacement for tymps. To add to options try removing tweeter fuse
.

 

Double Maggies , posted on December 17, 2014 at 09:43:07
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013
 Last night I moved the extra speakers out of the room and went back to the 3.7i alone set up in the position which I have found optimal out of hundreds of experiments (see above)

I immediately felt something was missing. The single Maggies seemed strained in comparison. Images seemed more two dimensional and thinner. The stage was deep, but the furthest back images were kind of painted on the wall. Subtle instruments seemed buried in the mix and hard panned stereo seemed to come out of the speakers. I could play them plenty loud, but I had to play them much louder to get the same power (if this makes sense).

I then brought the second pair back in, this time bringing them further up (9 feet) and closer in to get the side firing speakers further from the wall. I have up on the T and went back to the L.

The best way to describe (via exaggeration) the difference is imagine going from a mini Maggie to the large Sound Labs. From a mini monitor to the largest Wilson or Focals. There is substantially more power and weight and dimensionality to the instruments and singers. More presence. This is especially prominent on the sounds coming from the edges of the stage (which are produced almost exclusively by one speaker in a conventional set up).

There is no boxiness at all. Absolutely none. Just more weight. More realism. Less transparency (less ephemeral quality) of imaging. It is kind of startling.

No it is not perfect. No I am not sure I will keep it. No I haven't perfected everything yet (I've tried less than a half dozen positions and I am still using 25 feet of thin lamp cord to connect the second pair). No I don't want to give up my second audio room.

On the other hand. I strongly recommend everyone who can try this do so.

The funny thing is that my very first audio speakers were stacked Advents. Thirty Five years later I am listening to stacked Maggies.

 

RE: Double Maggies , posted on December 17, 2014 at 10:11:56
Swamis Cat
Audiophile

Posts: 272
Location: Illinois
Joined: September 7, 2013



Here is a photo of the most recent set up.

 

RE: Double Maggies , posted on December 17, 2014 at 12:24:03
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Two more sets and you can make a box...

So the benefit of the T setup before was simply moving the wing speaker's tweeters away from the sidewalls?

Thanks so much for posting these experiments.

It is obvious that you can have one listening room that you want to listen in, or two that leave you wanting and reminiscing about the setup that was...

Perhaps a different flavor speaker for the other room? Classic Klipsch of some type?

PS. Christmas ficus is fun.

 

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