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Modding Tympani IV- basses?

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Posted on November 29, 2014 at 09:09:46
AkuAnkka
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Joined: February 3, 2013
 There have been numerous discussions in here about modding the mids of T IV's, since in might the weakest link on them. I don't think that there is much to do for the highs, and they might be one of the best already.

But, how about the basses then? They surely also should be "one of the best", but is there something to do which would make them even better? Better XO's might be a good idea, and maybe the frame could be stiffen a bit, or what do you think?

One thing I'm been thinking of is that why exactly are the low- and mid bass drivers on different frames? Did Magnepan make this choice just because it gives the best possible sound, or is it just because it makes the manufacturing process easier etc.?

By building one stiff wooden frame for both drivers, it might be possible to make them 10-12" narrower. That would surely make their positioning much easier, but would it be a bad idea from sound quality point of view?

Add the narrowest possible DIY frame for the mids & high, and it might be possible to make IV's about the half of the original width...

 

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RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 29, 2014 at 09:43:19
Roger Gustavsson
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 The width of the speaker is important. If you reduce it you must have the low bass drivers touching the side walls. If you want to use the speakers free standing, you need to have wide baffles to keep the bass level up.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 29, 2014 at 10:20:02
AkuAnkka
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 Well that's a good point Roger.

But I have understood that all Maggies should always be *at least* 50cm away from side walls. I don't know why, but that's quite common advice.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 29, 2014 at 11:32:25
Satie
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 That is the tweeter that needs a certain distance from the sidewalls. The bass panels benefit from wall loading and the tweeters and mid can stay the optimal distance from the sidewalls - or in the case of the Tympani when setup inline a bit too far from the sidewalls. I found something short of 3' to be the optimal distance.

The two drivers of the bass panel allow you to aim them at the listening position along with the mid and tweeter in an equidistant arc, which allows time alignment and incredibly precise imaging with 1st order XO Or combined 1st order (mids) and 3rd order.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 29, 2014 at 12:07:14
AkuAnkka
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 But hey, if I have understood correctly, it does not acoustically matter much if the dipole's baffle is I, L or U shaped. So if I take something off the width from the I- baffle, and turn the same width for a "wing" of a L- baffle, shouldn't it be pretty much the same? EXCEPT that it surely would be much much more rigid construction.

Think about a 10" L- wing made from a 1" thick clear plastics, could look cool...

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 00:29:41
Roger Gustavsson
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 It is difficult to have it all time aligned, do not forget there is a difference in timing from top/bottom and the center of these tall drivers too. Besides, time alignment is really not that important at the lowest frequencies. In the case of Tympani IVa, the crossover bass to mid is rather critical.

The L, U or I shaped is not without its problems. For the lowest frequencies it will work but not at higher ones. There is a risk of having a cavity behind the speaker (L and U) that influence the sound in a negative way. An I-baffle is really bad for mid/tweeter.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 01:09:37
AkuAnkka
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 I did not quite understand Roger; how does the baffle shape actually relate to time alignment?

And when you say that "time alignment is really not that important at the lowest frequencies" and "for the lowest frequencies it will work but not at higher ones", how does that relate to Tymps' bass frequencies somewhere below 300hz..? I mean, do you consider them to be just the "lowest frequencies"?



PS. I would be using DEQX with quite steep digital XO's anyway...

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 04:44:14
Roger Gustavsson
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 The baffles width and shape is one issue. Time alignment another. That is why I split them in my text.

As the wavelength at lower frequencies is large, a few cm does not create a problem.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 05:38:45
AkuAnkka
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 Aaa OK! But do Roger you mean that time alignment might be a problem if "something" is done for the bass baffles? Or how does this relate to my questions in the first post..?

But, since I'm using DEQX, time alignment between the drivers *should* not be a problem at all.

Your comment about the possible cavity problems has a good point. Anyway, I have always thought that it should be a problem mostly on U- or H- baffles, not so much in L- shaped one. But I really don't know...

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 12:07:14
Satie
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 Since you are intending to use DEQX you can leave the drivers not time aligned physically but still have a time aligned result with the DEQX's delays. They have an automated setup for that too.

However, putting the bass panels on a single baffle is still going to be a problem since they will have a single signal to control timing and therefore will be two separate arrival times from the two panels unless they are toed in to be equidistant. But if you do that you will have lost the ability to wall load the bass panels, in particular the deep bass panel.

The L baffle can go some way to improve the deep bass panel's performance, but I don't think 10" is enough to substitute for wall loading.

The mid and tweeter will definitely not benefit from I frames. If you use wings for the mid panel then you would need them to be strictly in the back and away from the tweeter. The mids and tweeter do not do well with diffraction off of protrusions from the plane of the driver.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 12:42:15
AkuAnkka
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 Yeah well my plan was to make a frame as narrow as possible for the mids and highs, and maybe position it a bit closer to the listening position than basses. That should do with the diffractions, and DEQX handles the timing. Dunno though what are the drawbacks on this...

But about the arrival times of the two bass panels; does it REALLY matter if they are inline or a bit toed in, since the wave lengths for sounds they are playing are so long? I mean; if the wave length is always way over 1 meter, and the toe-in could be maybe just few centimeters, can it make a difference?

If it does, then the optimal solution might be to build two separate narrow bass frames, with a separate L- wing that can be adjusted to the best possible position ;=)

Unfortunately my listening room is not symmetrical, so left speaker will be quite close to the sidewall, while right is pretty much on an open space. And that's the one reason why I got interested on DEQX at the first stage.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on November 30, 2014 at 20:38:08
Satie
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 I see where you are coming from.

The solution is to have the deep bass panels set to the outside and to have large wings on them to load the panels. They will do well with large wings and you should experiment with how far in front of the panel you can pull the wings. The deep bass performance will improve with wings both in front and behind, but imaging would suffer from having the panels in front, so you need to experiment with that. But most of the effect can be had with a wing that only juts backwards to lower the freq. of the onset of dipole cancellation.

As far as inline setup, having done both inline and equidistant arc setups I find the issue is significant. In line and setup for wall loading the deep bass panel you get very powerful deep bass that you just can't imagine would be possible for a planar. However, the slightest toe in on the bass panels muddies up the bass and wrecks the effect.
When the bass panels are setup aimed at the listening seat and time aligned with the mid and tweeter you get terrific imaging performance that you would not expect from a large planar. An acoustic engineer (did a TAS reviewer's room) who heard my setup said that this was the first time he heard real imaging. That was with the equidistant arc and first order XO. You get lesser performance with 3rd order and LR4. Bass is good that way, but not deep and powerful by any stretch. I enhanced it with wings but had to take them off so I can access the space behind the speakers the enhancement is not on the same scale as full on wall loading with the bass panels in line.

The trade off of bass vs. world class imaging is driving me bonkers, so I am not going to say that the choice is easy. I am still trying to get the most out of the wall loaded in line setup by cutting off the bass sharply at LR4 slopes and positioning the mid/tweeter panels to best effect, but not having the contribution of time aligned coincident launch midbass really takes imaging performance down a notch. Even time alignment with the midbass portion goes a long way to improve imaging, but there is still low freq smear from the deep bass panel's output outside time alignment.

As for low frequency time alignment, Linkwitz wrote about it a couple of years back and has changed his mind about it, saying that it is very much more important than he thought before. You can read it in his discussion of transient perfect and near perfect crossovers (e.g. Duelund).

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 02:06:35
AkuAnkka
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 But wouldn't it be possible to get best of both worlds by using toe in setup with large enough wings on the outer side? I'm just quessing, but if wings depth is about the same than the longest wave lenght, shouldn't it be about the same as the "wall"?

Think about a 1 meter long wing, so that the speaker is in the middle of it. And since mid- & high frame can be a bit further than basses, that shouldn't mess with them at all.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 05:33:05
Satie
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 The second issue besides wall loading, which demands face forward placement is the long wave resonance reinforcement, short wall non-reinforcement and the tangential wave resonance which is the deepest freq. in the room's resonances, and one you very much want. Wings won't provide you with those.

My brother in law who is a Jazz contrabass player when he isn't a network security trainer and dad, was taken with the bass reproduction with the wall loaded face forward setup. He just went on mumbling "the bass..." with every kick drum whack and bass riff.

You can get more of it with wings but not all of it. You can also use a subwoofer.

I suggest you try an equidistant setup with all 1st order slopes when you have your triamp electronics ready and try it out. Just make sure you have a shelf down on the tweeter a couple of octaves below your tweeter high pass. There is more than just time alignment at play. You can move the panels willy nilly say a few inches each and time align on DEQX and hear that the results are not the same.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 07:55:58
AkuAnkka
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 "As far as inline setup, having done both inline and equidistant arc setups I find the issue is significant. In line and setup for wall loading the deep bass panel you get very powerful deep bass that you just can't imagine would be possible for a planar. However, the slightest toe in on the bass panels muddies up the bass and wrecks the effect."

Satie, just to be sure that we are talking about the same thing; with "inline wall loading setup", do you mean that bass frames are set *square* to the side walls? So that they are not toed in at all to the position of the listener? Since the basses play up to near 300hz, I would think that this kind of a position is really bad for the imaging over all.

Or did I get this totally wrong? Is it possible to get "wall loading" effect with basses toed in to the listener?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 10:36:28
Satie
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 Yes, exactly so. Face forward, square to the wall.

And yes, it does damage imaging - I crossover at 250hz. For laughs (and a slight hope) I tried it with 1st order low pass and got serious mush in imaging most instruments (at least when playing below middle C. Things were much improved with 4th order bass LP with a bit of fc spacing and delay to avoid cancellation.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 12:01:42
AkuAnkka
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 So why not to set the basses touching the wall, but toed in to the listening position?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 16:39:21
Satie
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 Because that changes the radiation pattern and thus the distribution of room resonances. Any toe in moves energy from the long wall direction (and the low freq resonance of its length) to the short wall length, and reduces the portion of the output that catches the tangential wave (lowest freq resonance, and one you will only catch deliberately).

It is not that these modes are generally crucial, just that they fill out the bottom octave most impressively and more nicely than any dynamic sub I know of. So I am reluctant to let it go. As part of a Limage setup there is some compensation to the loss of imaging precision at low freq. Since this setup allows for the best balance of reflected and direct sound - at least if you can position the mid and tweeter close enough to the wall (again, the "ideal" distance seems to be a bit shy of 3 ft.) while the width of the speaker when setup in line puts the tweeter >4 ft.
You can place the mid/tweet in the split configuration with the bass panels at the closest bass loading position to the front wall, and fix timing issues with your DEQX, you just need to find the right placement and (slight) angle to avoid early reflections off the bass panels.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 1, 2014 at 23:39:37
AkuAnkka
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 Ok, thanks again Satie, that explains a lot.

Was it so that Limage setup is actually good only in a symmetrical box shaped room? My listening room is far away from that, with diagonal ceilings, other side wall close to speakers while another 10 feets away etc.

I was also thinking that if I would not be able to get a good results with inline setup, and therefore I would use the toed in setup, does it matter much if the basses are still touching the side wall, or should there be some space between them when toed in?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 2, 2014 at 00:08:39
Satie
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 The bass loading scheme has to be symmetrical so the room has to be so as well.

If your space is not rectangular ( ideal proportions are about 1.2-1.4 and 1.6-1.8) then Limage setups are not possible in it. You would be far better off doing an equidistant arc and having a wing set up to jut behind the deep bass panel (should be to the outside). In the equidistant arc you can't have the wings go in front of the bass panel.

If you have the space for it, you can do it in reverse with tweeters to the outside and deep bass panels (and their wings) to the inside. Just make sure the tweeters have symmetrical proximity to sidewalls or are at least 4 feet away from any sidewall. If you could do the placement wall to wall then the ideal distance for the tweeter from the sidewall would be just short of 3 ft.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 2, 2014 at 02:24:33
AkuAnkka
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 But, theoretically, if an equidistant arc setup is used, is it a bad thing if bass driver would be touching the side wall? Or should there be some free space for basses also?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 2, 2014 at 20:02:11
Satie
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 The issue with one side touching the wall is the loss of symmetry. you can use wings to limit it, and DEQX to adjust for FR and volume differences but there will still be a family of reflections from that side that is not reproduced on the other side. Doable, but not perfectly. Probably an acceptable compromise.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 14, 2014 at 10:00:22
AkuAnkka
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 One more question; since I'm using DEQX, it would be easy to straighten up the frequency range down to 20hz, no matter how the basses are setup. Ok, this of course adds the needed movement for the driver, and thus may cause some troubles such as drivers hitting the magnets on higher volumes etc.

So my question is; if drivers would be overloaded due the EQ'd lowest fraquencies, can it be heard before something gets broken? Is there much risk on trying this?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 14, 2014 at 10:47:16
Roger Gustavsson
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 I am not sure but I think it is difficult to apply eq below the fundamental resonance. The stiffness of the diaphragm due its tension will act as a sort of brake.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 14, 2014 at 11:59:16
AkuAnkka
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 Well that's surely true if we are playing at the full volumes. But I'm not a headbanger anyawy, so I'm comfortable with relative decent volumes.

So my simple logic goes; if I'm listening at max -6db from the maximum possible volume, it should not be a problem to rise lowest frequencies 6db higher to get a flat response?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 14, 2014 at 21:36:28
JLindborg
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 You would be forced to add much more then 6db in gain if You are looking for 20Hz.
But there is no real danger for You to try this.
You will clearly hear the membrane hit the magnets if You play loud enough.
But don't do the slamming in a routine manner as prolonged physical contact/slamming/nudging/grinding between magnets and the thin membrane is not good in the long run. ;)

Cheers!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 14, 2014 at 23:26:03
Roger Gustavsson
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 Just like JLindborg is writing, you will need to add a lot more than 6 dB. It will certainly limit maximum SPL. The german Stereoplay measured compression already at 103 dB at 40 Hz. There is just 2 mm space between the magnets and the diaphragm.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 04:54:08
Satie
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 You can do it, however, you are going to increase the load on your bass amp, so be prepared with a more powerful one than you had planned on.

Second, as JL and RG pointed out, you will have more "slap" and may shorten the lifespan of your bass panels. The lower the freq. the higher the chances of slap, and the higher the volume the worse the slap would be.

Deep bass volume is very deceptive, because it does not sound very loud when you are in fact putting out 100db. At 20 hz that is all of 30 db above the threshold of audibility (70db) and sounds only as loud as 45db at 1khz

I just played some test tones at >90 db spl at the seat (spl meter set on peak and jumping around 91-94 readings which is "corrected" to 103-106 db by the calibration curve - if you want to believe it...) and got a few slaps on 25hz and quite a bit of it at 20hz.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 05:02:18
AkuAnkka
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 Ok, thanks. Maybe I'll forget 20hz, and set the target to flat 30hz etc... ;=) But the main point was that I can test it quite safely, and when the limits are reached, it can be heard before something blows off. Nice to know!

Power should not be a problem, since my plans are based on this just for basses: https://www.hypexshop.com/DetailServlet?detailID=3538 :=)

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 06:26:00
Satie
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 Well that is some power. So 2 PS and two amp units? That's 900 euro or so, and then box and connectors? do you need additional bits?

My bass amp is a Crown 5002VZ linear amp. similar power range.

I don't want to discourage you from trying 20 hz. Just don't be surprised if it is not doable without wall reinforcement.

I am going to repeat the test with more careful attention to levels. Hopefully I will get around to it soon.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 08:59:29
AkuAnkka
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 Yeah, 2 mono UCD2K's would cost about 1000€ as a DIY solution. My plan was NCore's for mids and highs and UCD700 for basses, but since price difference between UCD700 and UCD2K is actually only 100€ or such, will go for more power.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 22:52:37
Roger Gustavsson
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 Class D is still not very good for higher frequencies (have some friends who tried out the Hypex). The mids & highs of the T-IVa will not survive many Watts either.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 00:06:13
AkuAnkka
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 Roger, did they try UCD or NCore? I have read mostly good reports about Maggies with UCD, and all that have tried NCores are pretty much praising them to be one of the best...

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 00:44:12
Roger Gustavsson
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 I do not remember. As far as I know, most Class D are still failing in blind listening tests. (The Swedish Before/After testing method.) Many of them are good for lower frequencies, below circa 2 kHz. Somebody even reported problems with bass, some BeO ICE-Module.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 02:11:46
AkuAnkka
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 Yeah well I have tried IcePower and Lyndorf's TDAI with Maggies, and they both were really bad for my taste. Sounded harsh, "thin" and lifeless for me. Then I tried UCD400 and it was really good for the whole range. Way better than Creek or Classe that I had, pretty much on par with the great Luxman L505 which was my previous amp.

I have not heard NCore yet, but regarding all reports, it is still way better than UCD at least for the higher range.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 02:54:30
Satie
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 What are the switching frequencies of the Hypex UCD and the NCore?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 03:16:16
AkuAnkka
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 UCD: "The switching frequency is put at 400kHz". http://www.hypex.nl/technology/ucd.html

NCore: I'm not sure, but if I understood correctly, it is changing: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/papers/ncore%20wp.pdf

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 06:19:10
Satie
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 They imply that they have not changed the switching frequency for full duty cycle. So that leaves it where it was at 400khz.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 06:23:00
AkuAnkka
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 Aaa OK.

What does that switching frequency matter after all?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 09:38:42
Satie
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 Resolution.

Like the other PWM, DSD.

We just ain't there yet.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 10:15:47
AkuAnkka
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 Have you Satie heard UCD or NCore? Any comments on overall sound?

And; what would you say is the best power amp for mids & highs, lets say below 1000€/$ per stereo pair?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 17:28:12
Satie
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 I intend to seek out an Ncore, hence the interest. But I was disappointed that they had not increased their switching freq. Others have I am told.

What you want for the top end - It largely depends on your listening volumes.

I like tubes on top so there are only older amps to use in that price bracket. Hybrids are interesting too. Davy (UK) likes the Audio Innovations 500 integrated and the 1000 power amps. The Art Audio Concerto (Mk II in particular).

The next favorite are JFet MOSFET amps. Pass designs being the unrealistic favorite, then the Classe DR amps DR 9 model 10, but these are really old now. A cheap option with close performance at the top end - but very dependent on their power cables and power conditioning are the Fosgate Audionics amps Fosgate 4000 series, the later FAA 1000.5 multichannel amps. Also in this MOSFET family are the NAD 208 - packed with power and well balanced. Other amps that are likely less likely to be found in EU are Hafler 9300/9500 and later models.

Small class A amps at about 50W @8 ohms. Like the Krell KSA 50 and Forte 4. I am sure there are more domestic models built like they are.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 02:40:14
Roger Gustavsson
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 A friend from a swedish forum shared his experience of some power amplifiers.

Two bridged Anaview ALC240 were far better than Hypex Ncore. Both were by a great margin surpassed by Pass Son of Zen (Class A 2x30 W).

Next chapter, only bass duties. ICE-Power 500 with a conventional power supply, no fun at all. A "rubbery" sort of bass, like rumbling. An old Harman Kardon Ctation 16 did this far better, powerful and with fine resolution.

Most impressive for bass, the Hypex UCD2k but no fun for fullrange...

He is now using Anaview ALC1000 for basses.

Best Class D amp so far according to him, Marten M-Amp (also from Anaview). Expensive...


Anaview = Abletec

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 03:31:52
Satie
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 I generally agree with your friend's observations so far as my experience with class D. I only used mine to 5khz and no more. It was not even passable as a tweeter amp.

I don't know what these folks are waiting for. If people are showing a preference for DSD128 over DSD64 then surely the industry can't sit on 400 and 500 khz switching rates and act as if being at 1/7-1/5th the rate of PWM of DSD is even in the ballpark of "enough".

I am happy to use the better powerful ones for bass, and the better lower power ones for mids, but there are yet no candidates for tweeter duties so far as I know. I was hoping a low power Ncore would be able to do it due to so many good reviews. But the switching rate info is not encouraging.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 05:30:47
kuribo
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 Amplifiers make no sound- systems make sound. And the interaction between amp and the rest of the system can vary greatly from system to system. Add to that variance the wide disparity in personal preferences and you will come to understand why there is no "best amp" and why there are supporters and detractors for all amps and amp topologies.

There are undoubtedly class a, class ab, and class d amps that would work to your satisfaction in your system. Take the generalizations from others regarding these topologies with a grain of salt as there are many differences within each just like all Hondas or Chevies are not the same.

When it comes to Hypex ncore, many people have preferred it to Pass and other well known class a amps. Many have also preferred it to well known tube amps like BAT, AR, etc. And many have preferred it to other class d amps like those using Ice or Tripath modules. Some have preferred it to the newer modules by Anaview and Pascal. Of course, others haven't.

Right now on audiocircle, many are touting the Crown XLS class d amp series as sounding as good as amps at 10X the price-they are very cheap (around $400!). I haven't heard them but many are very excited about them. For the price, maybe worth a listen...


This underscores the simply truth that only YOU can know what will work best in your system. The most objective, non-biased advice you can get is to try as many amps as you can until you find "the one". You wouldn't let someone tell you what music is "best", an amp or any other component is no different...

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 06:17:57
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Ljudtekniska Sällskapet (Swedish Audio Society) uses blind listening tests, comparing the input signal with the output signal under load (minus gain). Very small differencies can be detected if you have a high resolution audio chain. Still, no Class D amp has passed without signal degradation. Lower frequencies is less of a problem but higher ones are. This is not a listening test isolation the amplifers contribution not how it fits in a chain of audio devices. So far just a few power amplifiers have passed without being detected.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 06:21:30
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Tests mean nothing when it comes to personal preferences. Some people clearly prefer various class d amps to various other class a or class ab amps. It is subjective, ultimately.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 07:16:59
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
 Ok, so maybe a good solution might be UCD2K for basses, NCore for mids, and some nice tubeamp for the highs... But; which tubeamp can handle the 2-3 ohm resistance of the ribbon?

I also think that it is totally wrong to talk about D- class amps as a whole. There are so many different kind of an implementations with different kind of sound preferences, that you should not put them together. UCD for example sounds *totally* different than IcePower or TDAI, on all frequencies in my opinion. I find UCD to be quite tube-like, with a smooth and musical sound, but with huge power reserve and punchy basses. Oh, just to be exact, I have heard only UCH700HG + HxR, not any lower end models.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 07:28:56
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Obviously some people are impervious to some aspects of audio performance, while some are hypersensitive to some aspects.

That is why I don't read the reviews for whether the device tested sounds better or worse than another or "real music" but only to the description of how it altered particular aspects of audio performance.

Crown has actually approached the issue of low switching rates and have a juxtaposed switching scheme technology for some of their class d amp series. So I would be more inclined to expect them to perform well.

That said, the main thing that audiophiles do badly is match power to speaker loads and sensitivity. Thus the amp that was exquisite with a Klipschorn is a mess of distortion on a Vandersteen. Many have tried underpowered amps that reviewed well to push their lead diaphragm infinite phase speakers. Then they pick up a cheap well designed pro amp and are blown away by the performance. It was the first time they had enough power on their speakers.

So I read the reports carefully to weed out equipment mismatches, serious weaknesses in the signal path. Some reviews and shootouts reveal more about strengths and weaknesses of other components in the system. One review convinced me to buy a component because the reviewer subsequently reviewed something else and was unaware that he ran the analog output through an AD/DA loop. I bought the HTP he was using.

Since I am triamping I get to test each amp that comes through on each role (assuming it is safe to do so) and have some idea of where the amp falters or outperforms or simply doesn't match the others.

I have not done well with a crown XLS or Nuforce amp on the tweeters, the grain and loss of resolution is obvious. Mids did well with the Nuforce, less so with the XLS - unless I took down the crossover below 5khz. I returned it to guitar center the next day (it was used on stage and looked it so I was not worried about breakin).

I prefer how the linear Crown Macrotechs do bass over the the XLS I tried. I use a Crown 5002VZ for the bass.






 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 07:37:00
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 That is true. If you are looking for a neutral/transparant piece of equipment as some us are, it is different. If you want a colouring amplifier you will have to try many of them with your equipment. Sometimes some kind of tone controls are better/cheaper for adjusting to a prefered tonal colour etc.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 12:51:51
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Has it occurred to you that what you think sounds neutral/transparent may not sound so to someone else?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 23:26:48
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
 Well for me the first word that comes into my mind about Hypex is actually "neutral". I've heard quite a few amps, and one the best was my latest Luxman L505. Even though Hypex UCD costs only about 1/5 of it, I thought that it was on par with the sound quality. Not exactly the same, but pretty much as good as Luxman, both being musical but also very neutral with acoustic music.

But hey, can anyone give answer on this; which tubeamp can handle the 2-3 ohm resistance of the ribbon?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 05:36:24
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 The designer of both the UcD and ncore has said repeatedly that his priority and design goal is neutrality-that the amp should have no sound of its own. The ncore is brutally revealing; what many have thought were flaws with the ncore are in fact issues upstream. Some prefer a more "musical" amp.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 09:03:09
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Neutral is not transparent.

You can have a "warm" sounding component that is very transparent. You can have a "neutral" sounding component that is not at all transparent.

Neutral relates to freq domain. Meaning flat FR and preserving flat FR at different output levels.

Transparent relates to transient detail and tonal (harmonic structure) and texture aspects. But not necessarily so much to FR response being flat. E.G. an equalizer or tone control can be "transparent".

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 12:47:24
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
 Good clarification Satie!

How would you describe your listening experiences with the UCD? Which model was it? And with what equipment?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 14:45:33
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I have not had the chance to hear an up to date UcD and did not hear the early one I came across at any conditions to pass any sort of judgement.

I was interested in trying an Ncore amp till I saw the paper you linked describing how it works and implying that the sampling rate was not increased. Now I am (much) less interested.

I have a modified Nuforce amp that I used for midrange duties for a while but have "retired" it a few years back and one of them is broken at the moment awaiting repair at Nuforce (2nd time now). Very neutral transparent through the mids, great dynamics, slight grain in the highs increases the higher up the freq of the music and harmonics goes. Resolution is not really there - the difference between digital and vinyl is much reduced indicating that it is not as transparent as it seems through the mids.

I had one of the Crown XLS for 1 day. Need I say more?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 15:56:09
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 "I had one of the Crown XLS for 1 day. Need I say more?"

Many on audiocircle are having a much different experience. That shows how subjective audio can be.

I haven't heard it so I can not comment-not that anyone's opinion really matters. It all comes down to personal preference.

For the price, it is hard not to give it a listen.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 19:58:51
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I know about it, that is why I tried it in the first place.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 20:17:36
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 Tube amps for 2 ohms: Most of the KR audio amps. Some of the Beards, Audio Innovations has 2 ohm taps on some versions of the model 1000. And there are others. Besides you can put an autoformer between the amp and the load.

I appreciate the L505 and unless your source is restricted to redbook digital or entry level vinyl you are likely to not lose much in going for an Ncore or Wyred 4 Sound, or Bel Canto class D amps, or Nuforce whatever you want to call their amp type. It also depends on your speaker. My Vandy 2C would never have shown up the difference. My JBL Centuries would never have shown it either. With the NS1000 berilium tweeeters I put in them they definitely did show up such differences. E.G. I bought a Rotel Pre and Power amp and borrowed the integrated from the same series. I kept the integrated and returned the separates since I could not find an interconnect that made them work better than the integrated. The dealer suggested an interconnect that cost nearly as much as the power amp, I didn't even try it.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 19, 2014 at 07:33:57
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
 But hey, if we get back to the original issue; has anyone got any (positive/negative) results for modding IV- basses somehow? Such as stiffer frames, more rigid feet, Razor modification etc.?

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 19, 2014 at 11:04:12
Roger Gustavsson
Audiophile

Posts: 2055
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Razor-modification will not stop the movement of the perforated sheet metal, if that is what you want. You can increase the number of cross-members but I am not sure it is necessary. As far as I can see, the clamping positions (the "buttons") are close to the excisting cross-members. The perforated seems to move most at the buttons.

Satie is in favour of stabilizing them. You can also add weight to them. I would like to suggest some thin damping strips between the driver and the frame. Get rid if the staples.

 

Repeat of bass slap test Tympani IV- bass, posted on December 22, 2014 at 14:36:49
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 "I just played some test tones at > 90 db spl at the seat (spl meter set on peak and jumping around 91-94 readings which is "corrected" to 103-106 db by the calibration curve - if you want to believe it...) and got a few slaps on 25hz and quite a bit of it at 20hz."

This is for the speakers in a Limage setup with the deep bass panels smack against the sidewalls in perpendicular fashion with both bass panels on each side facing dead forward.

I repeated the test after bracing the tops of the bass panels to the walls with a 1X2 oak piece per side.

The readings did not gyrate at all as opposed to ranging from 91-94 db within each warble tone in the unbraced speakers, and were 94 to 95 going from 40 hz down to 25 hz. The reading dropped to 90 db at 20 hz.

There was no slap at all. But my ears popped on the 25 hz track so I am not doing it again at a higher level as I had planned till I get good ear protection.

The calibration curve gives the values of 102 db at 20 hz, 103db at 25 hz, 101 db at 30 hz, 101 db at 35hz, 99 db at 40 hz and 97 db at 50hz - above 50 hz the calibration curve makes the consistent 93-94 db readings up to over 100 hz a nearly constant 96 db.

Subjectively, the loudness appears consistent and even but for 25-30 hz which are just a little louder. the drop in output at 20 hz is very obvious. Note that these are 1/3rd octave warble tones so you are measuring 18-23 hz and the range on the readings (SPL meter set at fast) was only 2 db. The subjectively even bass down to 25 hz despite a rise of 6 db is consistent with the Fletcher Munson curves but less steep than the ISO curves would indicate. The subjective value was that of 91-92 db at 250 hz so fairly loud.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on December 29, 2014 at 08:26:29
AkuAnkka
Audiophile

Posts: 167
Joined: February 3, 2013
 About this potential cavity problem in H- frame; what would be the deepest "safe" frame depth, if the highest frequency for the basses would be around 300z? I'm just thinking that using some 2x5 or 2x6 wooden board as a sides of a H- frame should make quite a riqid construction.

 

RE: Modding Tympani IV- basses?, posted on January 1, 2015 at 17:17:23
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I haven't yet read through the thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating something someone else said, but according to Magnepan the slightly folded-in bass panel arrangement of the Tympanis is necessary for optimal power response.

Another consideration is the degree to which you trigger room modes. If the panels are toed in, you're going to excite lateral modes, losing one of the major advantages of dipole bass. On the other hand, you could mitigate the midbass waviness from the rear wall reflection. Then there are the issues of time alignment that Satie mentioned, and the crossover lobes -- not just the front lobes, but the rear lobes to the extent that the rear wave energy is reflected back to you.

Fortunately, the DEQX should give you a lot of control here.

one of the ideas I've been toying with is putting the midbass panels next to the mid/tweeters, then using then putting the two low bass panels together against a room boundary to get the equivalent of a four-panel baffle. Then I'd run the low bass panels from 80 Hz down to prevent localization. But I have a very weird room.

 

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