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new MMG`s..... lots of questions

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Posted on October 14, 2014 at 15:36:11
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 Hi guys / gals. My first posting here. I received a new pair of MMG`s last week and broke them in about 125 hrs. Sounded terrible new but they`re coming around. I had them also about 7 yrs. ago ( but sold them ) and I don`t remember them sounding that bad new. My question is do I have the " new" or " old" crossover design. I took off the fuse panel and see a blue electrolytic, an erse film cap and an iron core coil. My plan is to raise them straight and a touch higher and upgrade xover components. Thanks,,,,,tom

 

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RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 14, 2014 at 17:55:00
Mike D
Audiophile

Posts: 593
Joined: April 24, 2000
 What amp, pre, and source are you running?

Mike

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 02:02:08
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 I`m using a McCormack DNA .5, Rega Apollo and a Forte model 40 pre. I went from anti cables to Kimber 4pr and settled on Bluejean to sound the most even throughout. They are sounding much better but I`m starting my stands to straighten / raise them up slightly . After that I`d like to upgrade xover components.

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 06:44:07
neolith
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Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 If you have two caps and one coil, then you should be dealing with the "old" design (2nd order LP). The problem is that Magnepan used two 12 mfd caps in parallel so you should be seeing three caps not two. I also doubt that Magnepan used an Erse cap. Conclusion, someone modified the crossover.
The best way to determine if you have the older 2nd order model or not is to measure the resistance of the tweeter. The older design has a 2.2 ohm impedance and the newer has a 4 ohm impedance.
I am sure JBen will be here soon, but he can give you great ideas for the older MMG as he has tweaked his to the max.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 08:23:27
Davey
 I think Neo is correct. Those crossovers have already been modified by somebody. You say "new" speakers.....these are not brand new from the factory, right? It makes me wonder why they needed 125 hours of "break in." :)

Much information in your post doesn't make sense without further elaboration.

Dave.

 

when you say 'new', posted on October 15, 2014 at 09:29:28
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 Do you mean 'new to you' or 'brand new from the factory'.

I know from personal experience that Magnepan will sell a used pair of speakers as 'new'.

Have you called White Bear Lake and given them the serial number to find out when they were built?




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:01:54
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 Thanks so much for all your responses! Yes, I ordered them from Magnepan new a couple of weeks ago. The factory sells used speakers as new??? I don`t like the sound of that. I just checked impedance at the tweeter att. terminals and I get 4.4 ohms. Like I said they are coming around and I don`t think I`ll be sending them back but I did see an electrolytic ( I coundn`t make out the value), a film cap and an iron core inductor. Guess the only way is remove sock. ( after I`m positive they`ll stay of course)I just wondered if I should replace xover comps. with values as they are or go with one of the other arrangements. I even read online during my search the the newest MMG has a slightly different driver panel. Very confused at this point. Especially after the " used" thing,,,, tom h

 

Aren't there 3 flavors now?, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:08:41
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
 If so, does anyone know what comprises the new XO?

I don't discount the possibility that I could be confabulating, but the memory of reading about a recent change 'feels' real enough ;-).

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:25:52
Davey
 Unless they've changed the schematic, you can't measure the tweeter resistance without breaking into the speaker. (The series capacitor on the tweeter prevents DC current from your DVM.)
When you probe the tweeter attenuator terminals you're actually measuring the woofer resistance. :)
However, it's highly likely the tweeter is also 4 ohms.

I doubt that's an iron-core inductor. Most likely a laminated-steel core inductor.

Dave.

 

RE: Aren't there 3 flavors now?, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:30:33
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Waz, yes, it appears to be the case. It has been discussed in broad strokes over the past months, or more implied than actually said. If there was to be a better tie-in to the DWM, the new MMG xover -- and perhaps even more -- would better be "optimized for it?".

The OP's mention of an Erse cap seems to point in this direction. Erse was never part of the factory-original xovers. Could be a fluke -- like Magnepan was short on Solen for a day or two -- but, again, there is an expectation that some kind of change had to happen. Then, if accurate enough -- there is the mention of an unlikely 4.4 ohms tweeter impedance. My original model's were 2.6 ohms, the next generation were about 4 ohms...

So, we all may have to learn a few new things...and perhaps develop new tweaks & tricks. Goodie ,goodie! LOL

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:46:26
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Hi Tom. Welcome to the Planar Asylum.

You do seem to have a newer design. Rather than assume things -- though we love to speculate for the fun of it -- we may have to help you dig a little deeper.

Just go with the flow for now and we'll try to help. How far are you planning/willing/able to go in exploring the internals of your MMGs? Any experience in electronics, or at least the ability to measure some things?

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 15:58:20
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 Thanks JBEN,, I`m willing to go to the ends . Most of the hobby to me is exploring and trying different things. I know a little electronics, can solder really well. I`m 60 and been fooling around in audio since 8. Had MMG`s and 1.6`s before. Crossover upgrade in MMg`s and did active xover on 1.6`s. Those are gone now and I just bought these "new" MMG`s. I swore I would keep them all stock but that only lasted a day!

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 16:17:46
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 I seriously doubt that Magnepan would sell you a used speaker without telling you. Whatever complaints one might have with Magenpan, I think everyone agrees that they are a very ethical company that is truly interested in their customers.
I also think that it is unlikely that they changed the tweeter from 4 ohms as this would require a retooling. I am at a loss about the XO as two caps and a coil suggests it is a 2nd order LP and 1st order HP like version 1. A possibility is that the two caps are in parallel -- for example, a 10 mfd and 2.2 mfd instead of a single 12 mfd.



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 16:31:16
Davey
 I think Magnepan has been selling used MMG's for years. The 60-day money-back guarantee program would provide a certain number of perfectly good speakers that could be resold as new.

Some companies might call these "factory refurbished" but I don't think Magnepan would have any problem selling them as "new."

Dave.

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 16:44:01
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Our kind of fella!

Well, here's the deal. You are in the position to learn about your MMGs and to teach us at the same time, LOL! We have yet to get measurements and other inputs relative to what may have changed in recent MMGs. I don't think that it is "major" but it could still be "significant".

For example, my MMG's tweeters measure and ARE different from the ones that came after. Folks here, at the time, only knew about the fact that the xover had also changed. When I started measuring my MMGs output (not yet knowing about the tweeter) I had some stumbles for a couple of weeks. The advice I had received was off the mark because the tweeter impedance was different than what everyone "knew". So, we can't assume we know your MMGs.

Like Davey mentioned, measuring the tweeter and mid panel impedances is better done with the drivers unhooked from the xover. This can best be done at the front...

...and perhaps we can wait. Neolith and I would agree that Magnepan would not send "used" MMGs as "new" but Davey has a very good point also. So, for now, perhaps you can stretch that rear fabric and/or find a smart way to read the xover parts values?

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 16:48:50
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 I think in a week or two the curiosity will get the best of me and I`ll open `em up. Wnat to give the stands a chance. I`ll surely post my findings. Maybe we`re looking at something totally new!

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:01:23
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 Yes, I will try to get a better peek inside.I`ll post my findings. ( I feel like Magnum P.I.)

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:14:47
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Magnum P.I., would this be like from way back? (I'm so much older that I forget, LOL!)

A couple of thoughts came to mind right after I sent the previous reply:
1. I've had limited but useful results by using a camera/flash shot at several angles on the xover area. The stretch on the fabric allows enough detail as to render some part numbers readable. Of course, it depends...

2. The same trick MAY work with a strong LED flashlight.

3. In any event, use the LED flashlight trick to count the tweeter aluminum traces from the front side. Normal is 8 traces. Old (previous century like mine) 6 traces. New...probably the same 8 traces as in recent times. Do you remember how many traces your original MMGs had?

 

Magnepan has stated that they are using..., posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:14:48
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
 ...boutique XO components now - to appease the crazies (like we are). Of course, that doesn't really please those of us who are seriously crazy (about the hobby). The tinkering is half the fun!

In order to measure the impedance of my drivers, I had to pull a spade off each one (to isolate it from the XO) and measure at the tabs. The OP hasn't peeled back the sock yet, so...

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:15:49
neolith
Audiophile

Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 Call me naive but I disagree. OTOH Tom could call Magnepan with the serial number and find out the date of manufacture. In any case if they were used, Magnepan would have restored them to original condition (including the XO).



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:23:49
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 Sorry, I don`t remember much about my old MMG`s. Except I used a 2.2 mh coil and a 12 uf Kimber cap on the mod. I think I will give Magnepan a buzz tomorrow with serial numbers. Also I`ll give the flash shot and strong light a try. I think this is the part that I enjoy even more than the music. The quest

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:37:49
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Late into this, I realized that you also mentioned "stands" and raising the MMGs as next steps.

You probably know this already. Vertical standing is always good. There are pitfalls that may have to be dealt with in some rooms but still...vertical is the way to go.

Stands & raising can be great, or not. There are many considerations for "tweaking to best system potential". So, I hope that you are not spending much money on this just yet. Some DIY experimentation may buy you a ton of cheap mileage.

 

RE: Magnepan has stated that they are using..., posted on October 15, 2014 at 17:48:39
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Waz, speaking about tinkering, did you jump to the "i" upgrade (via Magnepan)? Or, are you just waiting for our collective mind to find enough details about it...so you can get the excuse to...
...you know...
...do surgery on the 3.7?

Hmmm, I reckon we are behind on fact findings lately.

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 18:11:26
Davey
 What are they doing with the speakers that are returned under that agreement? Stacking them in the corner of the warehouse and letting them collect dust? I don't think so.
They're perfectly good speakers that just need a quick check and can be resent out to another customer. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

I suppose we could ask Wendell this question, but we'd probably get another lame-ass non-answer to a good question. :)

Cheers,

Dave.

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 15, 2014 at 19:05:49
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 LOL, Davey, here's the lighter side on "What are they doing with the speakers that are returned under that agreement? "

Huh! Are they not being sent to all those symphonic orchestras that wish to reinforce their string sections?

 

To be honest,..., posted on October 15, 2014 at 20:33:37
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
 ...I've just been enjoying the music and not worrying about what the 'i' is...although, I'd be lying if I said that I wasn't curious. Eh, one of these days, it will be revealed (not by Magnepan). When that happens, I can figure out if it's pertinent to my configuration...and do it myself (assuming that it's something I could do).

 

I agree, posted on October 15, 2014 at 20:43:32
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
 Magnepan is certainly capable of qualifying the speakers and redressing anything which doesn't make muster. It would be a foolish business model to simply scrap the returned speakers. There's nothing dishonest about the practice; it's merely prudent and efficient.

The only time when bits should get scrapped is following a product update, and then only those bits which have actually been altered need to be lost. If that's what they do, I salute them. Hell, it's the responsible thing to do, from many angles.

 

RE: new MMG`s..... lots of questions, posted on October 16, 2014 at 01:51:17
tominredbank
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: nj
Joined: October 14, 2014
 I remember on my first set of MMG`s the vertical position and a little more area on the floor made a noticeable positive difference.The stands will be very basic and only cost about 25$. The brass screws were the most part.

 

I bought a pair of returned MMG's..., posted on October 16, 2014 at 08:23:41
Tubo
Audiophile

Posts: 375
Location: So. California
Joined: June 9, 2004
 directly from the factory about five or six years ago. Magnepan was very straightforward about it, and they offered them for $50 or $100 (I forget the exact amount) less than the price for a new pair, which at the time was $500. Mine were in perfect condition and came with a full warranty.

I don't know if Magnepan still offers the same discount on returned MMG's, but you could call them. A live person will answer the phone, a rarity!

 

RE: I bought a pair of returned MMG's..., posted on October 27, 2014 at 07:58:43
photoracer18@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 15
Location: W. Virginia
Joined: October 27, 2014
 I just bought a pair of "new" old MMGs. The person who owned them bought 2 sets of white MMG and one set of wall mount Magnapan speakers in 2009 and put them in storage and never opened them until advertising them on Craigslist just last week when I came by to check them out. I plan on powering them with a Kenwood Basic M2A and C1 or C2 preamp I have in my own storage. All tied into a full Kenwood discrete setup I use to power both my AV and stereo listening. They will be replacing a mint pair of Ohm Walsh 2 speakers that will go into another room. While I am wondering about the crossover issue I don't plan on doing anything on that unless I think it will actually improve something.

 

RE: I agree, posted on October 30, 2014 at 11:12:42
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 How many MMG do you think are returned?
How many are sold as new?

I'll bet the returned %age is under 10%. Just a guess. Its not like they need a warehouse for all the returns.
And yes, selling as 'returned / b stock' would make sense. at a slight discount, perhaps.
Too much is never enough

 

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