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Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM?

70.196.204.90
Posted on August 26, 2014 at 09:09:53
zdog
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: PNW
Joined: August 24, 2014
 Hey guys,
Thanks all for the advice on the NAD for driving my new MMG's (just ordered them!)

So now I'm looking at ARCAM. Boy this stuff is pricey, but I've seen some used that I might be able to afford. However, the used stuff seems to be primarily refurbished stuff, or "factory refreshed" with limited warranties.

Any thoughts on the quality of ARCAM (sound and reliability) vs. the higher end NAD stuff? I've never heard ARCAM and can't even figure out how to buy one...any suggestions on where to buy one, and models that would be capable of driving the MMG's?

Thanks again for all the positive feedback.

Zdog

 

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RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 09:27:59
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 Arcam is, I believe, better than NAD, but you really would get much more bang for the buck if you were to buy used rather than new. For example, a Bryston 3b-ST would be much better I think, and still have 5 years left on the warranty--see attached link. I have no affiliation with the seller of the Bryston, and am just showing you that to give you an idea of what you can get used.

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 09:39:12
zdog
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: PNW
Joined: August 24, 2014
 Thanks Slapshot! We wants the precious...

unfortunately, I need a 5.1 channel or greater as I'd like to run HT with a pair of MMG's up front.

I'll start searching for Bryston...always thought this stuff was way out of my price range.

thanks again,
Zdog

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 09:40:32
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 Others will have better suggestions for 5.1; I'm strictly a 2 channel person. :)

 

Reality check, posted on August 26, 2014 at 12:06:54
neolith
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Posts: 4842
Location: Virginia
Joined: February 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 2, 2004
 You are going to be hard pressed to find a relatively inexpensive AV receiver capable fo delivering the kind of power your MMG's deserve. I would try finding a used stereo amp that will give you 200wpc and then use your NAD as a preamp and amplifier for the other 3.1 channels. Does your NAD have a pre-out that allows you to connect an amplifier for the front channels?



"Our head is round in order to allow our thoughts to change direction." Francis Picabia

 

I'd get a decent 2 channel amp for the MMGs and something else for the other channels..., posted on August 26, 2014 at 12:10:55
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Never had MMGs, but my SMGs weren't so awesome with an NAD amp. When I powered them with an Adcom GFA-555II or a subsequent Parasound HCA 2200ii? They were pretty incredible.

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 12:15:46
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 It may depend on which one you have in mind. By and large, Arcam makes very good audio. I have yet to hear anything of theirs disappoint me. However, I have never heard Maggies with them. You'd have to ask Arcam if their current lineup is rated for 4ohms. (BTW, MMGs are pretty stable at it, hardly ever go any lower).

A former neighbor had an Arcam Avr 360 receiver hooked up to 5 mid-sized Paradigm speakers and his apartment rocked in surround mode, even with the subwoofer off. So, even with Maggies being less efficient, something like this could work. Like Satie mentioned elsewhere, the subwoofer could help unload stress from the main amps.

This was over a year ago. Arcam must have new models out...perhaps a 360, or higher, is out there looking for a new owner?

Do look into Anthem. Although they were kind of "behind" on the HT part when I last looked at them, their audio is always solid. They may have caught up.

Which reminds me, Emotiva is coming in strong into the HT arena. Can't say that they have what you need but if you look...who knows!

Anyway, we can always go check on your specific candidates.

 

RE: I'd get a decent 2 channel amp for the MMGs and something else for the other channels..., posted on August 26, 2014 at 12:40:31
JBen
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Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 LOL! David, I use HCA Parasound myself (2, on bi-amp).

Yet, it was my old NAD 2200PE power amp that first made my MMGs display untypical dynamics and slammy bass. The first time was playing David Sanborn's Tequila...those bass notes at the start show the beauty of a well-designed strong power supply.

The original NAD equipment was well designed & decently built for the times. It is a pity that all this has been rendered "unrefined" after 30+ years. I keep wishing to do surgery and rebuild the NAD...wishful thinking :-)).

 

RE: Try a little power:, posted on August 26, 2014 at 12:46:56
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 At $149, I had to try one. Hooked up to my upstairs MMGs - it did great!

Note this is a Class H Amplifier with tracking power supply rails at higher power levels.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: I'd get a decent 2 channel amp for the MMGs and something else for the other channels..., posted on August 26, 2014 at 14:15:27
zdog
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: PNW
Joined: August 24, 2014
 Doh! I just sold and shipped today my adcom GFP-565. Sad to see it go, but I'm giving up the 2-channel for AV/HT.

I'm at a loss now...not much love for the NAD in this crowd. What to do what to do...ARCAM reviews and problems scare me a bit.

thanks again for the feedback. Nice folks here on this list. I will keep looking.

Zdog

 

JBen - it was a NAD 2200 amp that I used too!, posted on August 26, 2014 at 14:47:58
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Yeah, the 2200 was a really great amp with a number of speakers I used it with, but oddly, it didn't have very good control of the bass with my Maggie SMGs.

Weird - maybe the MMG presents a greatly different load in the bass than the SMG did.

In my case, the preamp/linestage was either a NYAL Moscode Minuet or an ARC LS3. Using either, the NAD had poor bass control, and the Adcom rocked the house. I'll never knock the NAD 2200 - it was the best amp at ANY price I tried with my DALI 8s, but it faltered with my Maggie SMGs.

Goes to show you - DON'T judge ANY given component on its own.

 

Don't worry - selling the Adcom GFP wasn't any loss, posted on August 26, 2014 at 14:51:47
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 No matter what anybody "rated" their preamps, I never found any of the Adcom GFP series very good sounding. Their amps? Simple, straightforward circuit that could sound incredible with the right loudspeakers.

 

For The Love of NAD, posted on August 26, 2014 at 15:19:45
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 We love NAD. I even run a NAD pre-amp on my MMG system. Its just that low power receivers are a bit disappointing. I can't even make a recommendation for a multiple channel receiver, there are maybe a handful of good ones and tons of average stuff. Any way we can talk you into 2 channel?

 

RE: JBen - it was a NAD 2200 amp that I used too!, posted on August 26, 2014 at 15:28:41
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 David, your observation is right on the money as far as what would have been perceived. It would have appeared as if "out of control".

The interesting thing is that it was the dynamic punch of the 2200 which revealed a weakness in many Maggies, more so in earlier days. Their frames were a bit too weak. When put to such impressive dynamism as the NAD could send at low frequencies, the sound came out muddled. Strong bass was perceived as fuzzy and out of control.

At the time I hooked up the NAD to my MMGs (which are VERY old), I had already cured the weakeness. Bass from the NAD was tight, clean, and plentiful.

Yet, later on I had a taste of what your heard. One day I conducted some tests of "Razoring" (a tweak by inmate Dawnrazor [on sabbatical] :-))) which went on for several weeks. At some point I used the NAD while I had removed the "cure" mentioned earlier. HORRIBLE fuzz on bass-heavy and on full orchestral passages!

The "cure" is to add frame reinforcement. Or, like some do, to replace the factory frame. In any event, if someone had applied the same thing to the SMGs, I am sure that they would have improved also.

So, any of many Maggies would have shown some stress unless reinforced. Actually, the issue persists...


 

RE: I'd get a decent 2 channel amp for the MMGs and something else for the other channels..., posted on August 26, 2014 at 16:14:06
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Ironically, a few weeks ago I found a refurbished Denon AVR-4520CI for a friend for a bargain price of $800. Something like it would have been great for you because it has most of the current HT features PLUS a solid power supply for surround + Maggies.

The irony is that I then found him a AVR-5308CI (as another bargain but much more dough) and he let go of the 4520CI.

Anyway, let's keep looking.

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 17:17:13
LineSource
Audiophile

Posts: 145
Location: Iowa
Joined: July 29, 2014
 Have you taken a look at Emotiva?
LineSource

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 17:53:54
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Zdog, I meant to ask this earlier. What kind of source(s) will you be using? Do you already have the/a player?

 

RE: Wimpy NAD vetoed for MMG! How about ARCAM? , posted on August 26, 2014 at 18:41:33
LineSource
Audiophile

Posts: 145
Location: Iowa
Joined: July 29, 2014
 Seriously, look at the Emotiva site. They make several amps which would be good matches for your MMGs. I have a couple of their products and they make some seriously good stuff.
LineSource

 

Agreed, posted on August 26, 2014 at 19:12:12
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 Emotiva looks like a good starting point.

 

RE: Agreed, posted on August 26, 2014 at 19:41:08
LineSource
Audiophile

Posts: 145
Location: Iowa
Joined: July 29, 2014
 Yeah, with the XPA-100 mono amps for 808.00 dollars you not only get good power for the MMGs at 400 watts into 4 ohms, but biamped power to boot. I would personally go this route rather than the XPA-2 because each XPA-100 has 60,000 uF of storage capacitance for a total of 120,000. That provides some serious current which these speakers need. The XPA-2 because of how the caps are wired only provides 45,000 uF which is shared between both channels. For a couple hundred bucks more the XPA-1Ls put out 500 watts into 4 ohms with 90,000 uF of storage capacitance and run on pure class A up to 35 watts, switching over to class A/B above that. And if you don't like their stuff you can send it back within thirty days for a full refund.
LineSource

 

RE: Try a little power:, posted on August 26, 2014 at 20:16:42
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Ha ha! Bigguy, one does get tweaking & project ideas when these little things show up out of the blue for such low prices.

There's a malformed DNA string in me that's got me looking at these amps as a solution to a problem that I don't have at all, LOL!

 

RE: Agreed, posted on August 26, 2014 at 21:49:33
Kurtle
Audiophile

Posts: 364
Location: Salem Oregon
Joined: December 21, 2002
Contributor
  Since: April 6, 2011
 200 watts per channel on a closeout Emotiva amp for $299

https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/upa-200

I bought a couple of the last generation monoblocs (UPA-1) and made the MMG's sing. A quality product at a very good price. I am not a "fanboy" but I appreciate a good bargain.

 

RE: Agreed, posted on August 27, 2014 at 13:52:16
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 Lets all talk the same units, it's a 125 watt amp (@8 ohms). However 125 watts can be more than enough and the Emotivas work well with Maggies.

 

NAD pre, posted on August 27, 2014 at 15:37:31
sbrians
Audiophile

Posts: 1455
Joined: March 4, 2002
 On my integrated 312 (or 314?) the amp is much better than the pre-amp. So, if their amp is not good enough, then the pre-may not be worth using either. BTW I'm using that NAD on my MMGs as my rear speakers.

 

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