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Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice

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Posted on August 20, 2014 at 19:45:53
tz7
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Joined: September 26, 2004
 Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have really enjoyed AES six pacs paired with Maggie 12's for the last ten years. I have tried a couple of other tube amps during this time including Atma Sphere M-60s and always went back to the six pacs.

After ten years, I am trying to decided whether to spend about $800 and have the caps refreshed/upgraded and hexfred diodes installed. Is this worth the money? Should I try to find a local store that might charge less for labor? Are there any other tube monoblocks that might pair well with Maggie 12s? If I put another $800 into 10 year old amps, I assume that investment will depreciate quickly.

 

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RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 20, 2014 at 21:08:21
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 For $800, these days folks get very little of what they truly value and want from their audio...me thinks. It seems that you want to keep the best of what that combo gives you now. As a known quantity, keeping it working for 800 bucks or so may be a great option. Unless, of course, the Maggies are also due for replacement soon.

OTOH, there may be sweet pickings for the right price just by looking out there. Long ago, a friend of mine was in love with his six packs until a storm destroyed his place. He told me that had no choice but to look into a Cary, a V12, I think. One day he sounded depressed on the phone...could not afford one. Then, days later he found one for "pennies", somewhere. He told me that it sounded just as good as the six pack, though I never heard this myself. I do remember his six pack driving his Lowthers and charming me for hours on end.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 21, 2014 at 01:12:58
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 You could probably use more power so you might want to consider having a defunct older 2 (100 WPC) or 4 (200 WPC) tubes per channel kt88/6550 amp with good transformers rebuilt with hexfreds and modern caps and have the amp stuffed with KT120s and biased appropriately.

There are old VTL Melos MFA Manley ASL (e.g. Hurricane) that can be had at a low price and rebuilt into great amps. ARC TRL CJ and VAC will set you back more.

There are the Jolida Envoy/3000 that are very interesting and relatively inexpensive and will have a somewhat similar tone but with more dynamics and deeper bass.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 21, 2014 at 01:19:30
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 If you like the amps keep them. I can't imagine them needing recapped after only 10 years though. Is there visible signs of degradation? Otherwise, I would leave it alone. What do you think the Hexfred diodes will bring? Maybe an upgrade of the coupling caps would bring an audible benefit though and could be done for far less than $800.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 21, 2014 at 06:16:02
Green Lantern
Audiophile

Posts: 16952
Location: San Diego, Ca
Joined: November 12, 2002
Contributor
  Since: June 17, 2003
 I suspect $800 could get you:
1. a couple different sets of sweet sounding tubes.
2. cross-over upgrade











 

That price seems high , posted on August 21, 2014 at 08:23:13
kff
Audiophile

Posts: 1033
Location: SE PA
Joined: October 19, 2006
 Not knowing exactly what is in the amp, just looking at images on the web, there are few, easily accesses caps (that as stated probably don't need to be replaced) and adding the hexfreds shouldn't be difficult either.

Doing it twice means the learning curve from the first swap can be applied to the second amp making the replacement take less time. Just copying the first amp work not engineering the upgrade. Well unless expensive caps are used for the output caps. Some do sell for close to the cost of the mods you mentioned.

I would consider upgrading the coupling caps, too, as you have stated these amps are something you can live with long term, provided you insist on making some change.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 21, 2014 at 09:33:43
wheezer
Audiophile

Posts: 4309
Joined: January 24, 2001
 Do more homework as to what 800.00 will do for you.
What caps and how many?

Hexfred/Stealth suck!
Search the archives for oscope pics I've done showing how nasty they present.
UF or Schottky.

Cheers,
W

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 09:49:24
tz7
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Joined: September 26, 2004
 Thanks for all the replies.

Try to answer a couple of questions:

1. Cary offers Clarity MR-style caps. They used to offer Jensen and Cardas.

2. The amp is performing fine. I actually had to box them up for several years. I have tried a couple of other amps. I thought the M-60s with all of its awards would be my final amp. Since that didn't work out, I am now thinking the six pacs are my final amp and its been a while and I should upgrade the caps.

3. I upgraded the caps in the maggies cross over and it made a real difference. So I hope it will also make a significant difference.

4. I am willing to spend more money $5k) for a tube, monoblock amp that is an improvement. But I think I have I a couple including the M60s and I keep coming back to the texture, lively and hefty sound of the six pacs

5. I replaced the power tubes with Gold Lion tubes. I also upgraded the splitter tubes which made a difference.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 10:59:49
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 Keep your six-pacs and run them as is, they are fine as they are. If you want to make a change, look at some speaker cables, they will make a bigger change than a re-cap will.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 12:47:49
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 What is it that you want to change about the sound of your system? Do you need more output cpacity? tighter deeper bass? more dynamic mid or bass? Better top end extension or clarity?

There are a few options for amps that have that EL34 magic midrange but you don't seem that enthused to try any. Perhaps we could do better in suggestions if we knew what you want to improve.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 15:50:32
tz7
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Joined: September 26, 2004
 If I could improve one area it would be imaging/sound stage/presence.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 16:17:37
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 What do you find lacking in imaging/sound stage/presence?

Is the soundstage too flat, lacking in depth or width? Is its shape distorted (e.g. dented in the middle or having an arced shape). Or do all the performance spaces appear the same size?

Are images too ehereal and lacking body or are they smeared or unsaturated in tone? are they not specific enough?

I am assuming that the presence issue is a lack of low treble upper mid energy. That is often a part of having the midrange magic as somewhere in the 2-3 khz range there is up to a 2-3 db drop in FR, and it is sometimes a lack of dynamic power.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 16:19:40
JBen
Audiophile

Posts: 3082
Location: South FL
Joined: May 18, 2008
Contributor
  Since: July 26, 2010
 Ok, imaging/sound stage/presence we could pursue jointly then. It is not something that a single item creates all by itself, as you probably know already. Ironically, these can actually vanish if just "one something" goes wrong. For example, I can collapse the depth & 3D imaging to pancake thickness by kicking a cable too close to a small transformer or a power supply.

A couple of questions:
-- Have you ever had any of these 3 elements in THIS system before, to a level of your liking? (and perhaps lost some of it later?)
-- Is there any music that you like for its richeness of these 3 elements? If some of us find these same ones in our collections, we can compare notes as we go along.


 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 18:13:39
tz7
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Joined: September 26, 2004
 I would say I wish the images were more specific with more body.

I think your comment about a lack of dynamic power is my concern. Any thoughts on whether the Cary v12r would provide a substantial improvement in power over the six pacs?

This might be the best avenue to explore since it they used el 34s and are probably voiced similar to six pacs.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 18:17:58
tz7
Audiophile

Posts: 260
Joined: September 26, 2004
 I definitely understand everything has to be exactly right for the sound stage to shine.

I guess I was looking for an amp recommendation that excels at sound staging.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 20:09:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 I picked up this commentary on the KT120 and KT150. I suggest you ask AES/Cary about using KT150s in your sixpacs. It would probably hit on all the weaknesses you pointed to and if they don't work for you then you can resell them for >60% of cost - without the total loss you are likely to have with a cap and diode upgrade.


10-25-13: Lissnr
Yes, The KT 150's have arrived and they are spectacular. I am originally an EL-34 guy who was addicted to the midrange but also played with SED winged C 6550's for their better extension and somewhat more openness, speed and clarity across the board. I've also run EH KT-88's, so this is the extent of the brand and models my Cary Sa 280 V12R's and my CJ Premier 12's were fed. I have used both amps individually and both amps together bi-amping my Apogee Duetta Sigs (Rebuilt by True Sound Works). A lot of fun. I used an active dedicated electronic crossover in the final combination before I switched out both amps but at the time it was CJ's handling the woofers and the Cary handling the mid/tweeter...Punch/dynamics, extension, serious imaging and space and glorious vocals.
Fast forward to my new TRL mono blocs and the arrival of the KT 120's. Very punchy, good extension, nice air and a mid that wasn't quite the same as an EL-34 but surprisingly on the warm-er side of things....I had heard it would have the extension of a high powered KT-88 along with mids approaching a 34...Overall it wasn't too far off but I felt the mids were perhaps just a little too "warm and fuzzy" for my application... You had to really be discerning because the overall sound of the tube was very nice, but for my system it came pretty close but didn't quite replace the 34/6550 combo I had hoped.
Don't get me wrong...I was pretty much "Done" as far as tubes...they were reliable, seemingly robust, and did a very satisfying job, albeit with the described points...
When someone first mentioned KT 150's my first instinct was to say 'Why do we need that??" Will it be an improvement? Really? And is there really a market for even more power? (the 120's were "plenty" although the expression about having more power is usually nice...).
Fast forward again and I managed to get myself 2 matched quads of brand new 150's (My amp manufacturer (TRL) not only said my amps could handle them but actually encouraged me to try them as he was having great results and really liked the tube). So I replaced the 120's with the 150's and was very pleasantly surprised by how much more they added to the mix...Essentially all the benefits of the 120's plus a midrange that rivals my beloved EL-34's AND gets me the top to bottom extension of an 88 or the 120's in spades. Even more dynamic than you thought you'd ever want, as I said: "great mids"...and sweet highs [though I haven't completely explored to full top and bottom yet as my amps had been recently rebuilt and are still breaking in]. Very very promising though..I think they're a real winner.
Try them.
Lissnr (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 20:15:03
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 My understanding is that the later model V12s are using the same circuit as the six-pacs. The six-pacs sounded better than the original V12 so Cary updated the V12 using the six-pac design.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 20:16:14
Satie
Audiophile

Posts: 5426
Joined: July 6, 2002
 To add my personal experience into the mix, I use little Dyna III on my midrange in a triamped setup with the following progression 6550C to KT90 to KT120. I liked the KT90 but it had a grey haze to it that was a slight annoyance. The KT90 was more dynamic and bassy than the 6550C. On the downside you lost a bit of clarity. The KT120 is warmer, even more dynamic and does not lose much to the 6550C in clarity or clean extension. I like the KT120 better on all counts.

If the KT150 is just like the KT120 just built to better standards and having more of an EL34 like midrange, then you should try it, I know I would if I could.

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 23, 2014 at 22:36:25
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 My point / comment exactly, at least until my post disappeared! screw THAT.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Tube Monoblock Magnepan Advice, posted on August 31, 2014 at 11:50:52
Mendel
Audiophile

Posts: 1207
Location: GTA
Joined: January 17, 2009
 I replied to this thread in the AMP section. In short---YES do the cap and diode upgrade well worthwhile if you like the amps and plan to keep them.

 

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