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Why two subs at 50 Hz

173.247.20.250

Posted on March 27, 2014 at 08:33:23
If I am crossing a sub or subs at 50hz do I really need two?

Would not one large (15") sub crossed at 50 hz add air movement and ambience in the areas I want it?

Not really a cost issue, but related to room clutter.

 

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RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 27, 2014 at 09:02:35
Two issues that I know of.

1) Stereo subs should sound better because the 50Hz cut off is not immediate and the subs will produce higher frequencies.

2) Multiple subs can handle room nodes better.

 

Exactly, further..., posted on March 27, 2014 at 09:46:54
grantv
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Posts: 7729
Location: B.C.
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Even if the sub cut flat at 50Hz, it would likely be locatable. In theory if you stuck the sub mid-way between the speakers this would be less of a potential issue.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 27, 2014 at 16:17:18
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
Stereo subs are better. For whatever reason, stereo subs provide more options. Also some guys can't locate subs but I always can. Stereo provides a play back closer to the recording and I also think two small subs are better than one large sub although big subs can go very low.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 27, 2014 at 19:26:30
Satie
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There is spatial information down to the 30s hz, so you need stereo subs for that.

second issue is the room modes are excited less with distributed radiation than with single sources. Actually, most rooms have at least one mode in the 40-50 hz zone, so for best results you would want both mains and two subwoofers to radiate at those freq, and you have a basic distributed bass system a la "SWARM".

 

RE: Exactly, further..., posted on March 27, 2014 at 19:33:15
hahax@verizon.net
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Location: New Jersey
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Not True. If you cut off a sub at 50 Hz with a sharp cut off you can play loud sound below 50 Hz and you won't be aware of the sound. I was standing within a foot of a woofer cut off at 65 Hz and about 6 feet from the mid/tweeter towers(Pipedreams by the way) and my ears told me the bass ALL came from the towers. And every one else experienced the same thing. One guy stood next to the speakers and told the owners the woofers weren't working. Huge wave lengths are totally Omni-directional and 65 Hz is around 16 feet.

 

RE: Exactly, further..., posted on March 27, 2014 at 20:56:59
pictureguy
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Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
The 'locatability' of a low frequency source is related to 1. Frequency produced and 2. Size of the listening space. Or perhaps the longest dimension.
A BIG space could have localizable 65hz bass…but it'd have to be a fairly large room.
The other aspect is just how messed up a space you're trying to bass load. In my area, I have 8 walls (count 'em…..8) a flat floor and a ceiling pitched asymmetrically down the long way. My den acted as a helmholtz with very exaggerated / boomy bass until I relocated the sub while there are 2 other openings to the room…..down the hall, which is next to the RH panel and into the kitchen which is at the opposite end of the room, which is about 25 feet long.
I've literally crawled and inspected all over the room. Very few if any bass 'bumps' and the sub is accoustically invisible.
Crossover is 40 or 45hz with the panels (MG1.6) running full range.

Just my observations…from admittedly limited data.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 27, 2014 at 23:22:18
JBen
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You have a few real good inputs from the gang already. I guess that the only thing I can add, or expand on, relates to my situation here -- in case it is similar to yours.

Keep in mind that I hardly use the subwoofer for music. I was lucky that tweaks to my old MMGs make them do decent bass (by MMG standards). The resulting rich instrumental textures that prevail down to the perceivable bottom (VERY faint at 35hz sometimes) are delightful. Subwoofers can easily spoil these.

Thus, until I find a proper subwoofer choice I don't use mine much. It never was a top priority but I've kept bringing some subs for testing. The most remarkable findings in my room:
- Like stated by others, 2 subwoofers CAN more easily behave better than one
a. however, it does not mean that this makes it more desirable by default
b. two good subwoofers will be less likely to create boomy bass than one
c. BUT one subwoofer in the same plane as the Maggies may be far more musical (unified and capable of keeping textures & clarity) than two subwoofers away from the plane of the Maggies
d. of course, two good subwoofers AT THE SAME PLANE of their respective speakers can be ideal (unified and capable of keeping textures & clarity).

Other than for tests, I can't do "d." permanently where I live now.

So far, it appear that subwoofers/woofers in the 10" and lower size are capable of staying "in sync" more easily (at lower cost); the sealed 10" ones more so. However, I have yet to bring an expensive (top quality) 12 or 15 incher here. The lesser priced ones have left a lot to be desired.

BTW, the one I use in this apartment is a low-power Velodyne 10" slot-loaded (open) sub. It is hardly adequate for the task, though it works fine for movies. That said, changes to the rest of the system about a year ago (mainly, changes to the MMGs) resulted in the best performance (textures-wise) that I've heard from a subwoofer here. (I've gotta find out what specifically made this happen but I have to wait until I finish some other tests). Importantly, this subwoofer in centered bewteen AND on the same plane as the MMGs. Without this, the more recent changes would not have yielded improvements.


 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 05:12:00
wazoo
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'Other than for tests, I can't do "d." permanently where I live now.'

I disagree. You just have to think vertically. I had the same issue - not enough floor space to accommodate a pair of subs. So, I built frames which place each MMG above a 10", sealed sub. I can't convey how excellent that arrangement is. I don't hear 'subs'. I just hear MMGs that are solidly full-range. I'm confident that I have the world's best MMGs! ;-)

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 06:45:22
JBen
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LOL! I agree...in fact, I had wanted to do this eventually. I certainly noted your smart approach since the days I first came to the forum.

Long story short but a few minor things all added up to it being not practical here for now. One actually added up to outright unhealthy, as in WAF-nuclear. The amount of daylight already being blocked by the system makes the room too dark now. Sure, the TV doesn't help. The net result is that the nice view of the park, behind our apartment, is then fully eclipsed.

 

Thanks, but..., posted on March 28, 2014 at 11:25:25
wazoo
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...I'm merely an imitator, not an innovator. Shortly after getting my MMGs, the thought of converting them to hybrids (like I've seen from Acoustat, Martin Logan, or...) began ruminating in my head. The only thing I did which was at all creative was build my frames such that they straddle the subs, rather than integrating the subs into their structure. Part of that was motivated by a desire to isolate the panels from any vibrations the subs could impart (probably, not even necessary), but it was also in the interest of sub replacement if one ever went south (and I couldn't repair it). Of course, I didn't address the second issue very well at all, because it's bloody tough to find another 10", sealed sub with the same (or smaller) footprint as REL's Q150.

Oh well, live and learn. :-)

In terms of WAF, the stereo got booted out of the living room. My MMGs are now in a bedroom and my wife supported the idea of a mancave for a big rig. We don't have much of a view out of any of our windows. ;-)

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 12:19:39
JLindborg
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Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
These answers are a bit funny as all of You using MMG's actually have higher frequencies then 50Hz distributed between the left and right speaker and not equally leveled on right AND left speaker...
Funny!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 14:55:06
JBen
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Hmmm! JL, I don't want no crappy MMGs that I can't balance! So, out the window they go the minute I get home this evening, LOL!

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 15:39:46
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
Hehehe!

I got Ya!
Sorry if I offended You! ;)

Cheers!

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 20:39:20
JBen
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Well, the truth is that they do come kind of unbalanced at the bottom from factory. I guess that's part of the tuning dots role.

At home, the MMG placed on the right side of the room always gets a boost from the concrete wall under the drywall. Then the MMG on the left side "sees" more empty drywall, which does not boost bass so much.

OTOH, one of my MMGs -- itself -- shoots up to 3db more peak at around 60hz than the other MMG, "by design". It would seem wise to put the peaky one away from the concrete wall. No being wise enough, guess what. This peaky one wound up on the RIGHT side. That's for me to be able to listen in tweeter-in mode, which I prefer in this room.

Therefore, that 60hz-area peak gets reinforced. The irony is that all of the above is "as measured".

When listening comes into play, the actual channel balance contrast in the 90hz area is perceived as nowhere close to what the measurements said. I am guessing that the imbalance gets "corrected" between the dipole dynamics and my unbalanced brain cell, LOL!

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 21:07:28
Satie
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I never understood that design choice of tonal fullness in the bass vs LR symmetry. It is the wrong choice for serious listening, but a good choice for casual listening. I always thought they would go for serious fidelity.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 28, 2014 at 21:32:52
JBen
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Satie, JL mentions it in terms of the MMGs, which Magnepan never positioned for "serious listening". Some of us are hard headed (or poor, like me) and challenged this by modding/tweaking. Dealing with it did cause me some aggravation long ago. (In the end, the tweaking was fun and I am having a hard time accepting that I should "stop tweaking".)

OTOH, until the day I have other Maggies to measure channel vs channel, I will not be sure of how much this tuning mismatch is also used by Magnepan in other Maggies. I do get the impression that the more recent models have less of it.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 29, 2014 at 04:56:28
JLindborg
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Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
At the same time I wonder how in the world people rave about an speaker that is built like of a 10 year old with different woofers on the left and right!? hehehehe
This would have never left a manufacturing company that produce box speakers.
It would just look extremely un-serious to blend 2 differently equipped speakers and sell it as a matched pair. hahahaha

But then again, a customer can not see this mix of speakers on a closed MMG and just in the same time goes to show that You actually CAN sell what ever You like to some people and they will still rave about it.
And then again, some can't afford the right sound and just bare with the faults.

To be back on topic, Yes You ought to have 2 subs as You CAN hear lower frequency placement.

Cheers!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 29, 2014 at 06:58:00
Wazoo,

I sure would love to see a picture or a description of how you elevated your MMG's up over the subs.

Concern about the sub boxes vibrating the Maggie panels sounds right to me.

I am accumulating stuff to build a pair of dipole subs (a la Gradient for the Quad ESL 63) but elevating the Maggies has me stumped.

Mine are SMGcs that have been "Quasi-Gunned" with heavy wooden bases. I had planned to just spike them to the tops of the sub, but maybe there is a better way.

Thanks,

Louis

 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 29, 2014 at 09:12:24
wazoo
Audiophile

Posts: 4062
Location: Middle GA
Joined: December 6, 2006
Here are a couple of photos. First, here's a shot of the ugly side - from several years ago. The wires entering the XO enclosure are off center because I originally kept Magnepan's plate (not any of the hardware, just the plate), hence the screw holes. Eh, it's the back, which faces the wall. ;-)






From the front, I think they look rather nice. Yeah, I know they aren't exactly in the greatest setup, but they sound fantastic anyway - very nearfield, in a bedroom (the smallest one in the house and it's still a bedroom).






 

RE: Why two subs at 50 Hz, posted on March 29, 2014 at 09:44:04
Thanks for the pix...way purtier than mine will be... :)

Mine will be only 12" or so tall and horizontal.

Similar to the link below (I hope)

 

JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 01:15:56
JBen
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Of course, channel balance is just one parameter of SQ. While it does merit much attention it is not the sole determining factor by itself. In any event, to be fair to the MMGs one has to recognize that they have tremendous potential. They SURE are handicapped from factory! Yet, they don't need to stay this way...which is really the ONLY point that I really want to make with what follows.

To begin with, please remember that Maggies -- all of them -- are easily affected by the room factor. Furthermore, I can show you great quality box speakers that STILL will be affected by their rooms into displaying more channel imbalance than what you see in the sweeps below (my friend's boxes in his family room and my MMGs at my home).







The sweeps above are of a friend's box speakers. they cost 20x + what my MMGs cost. I truly love how they sound. Impressive performance that, in fact, to most people WILL sound much better than my MMGs . I chose these B&W for him years ago...yet I would not do so for myself. I still prefer my MMGs despite some limitations.









What you see here is from exactly the same signal to each channel into my MMGs. I use no EQ (although the room & the design of the PLLXO count, in a manner of speaking). Of course, the system IS substantially modded. The mods are exactly the same for each MMG. The PLLXO biamp is using slopes & points close to the original 1st order(for tweeter) and 2nd order (for mid/bass). [However, there are filter caps to reduce the very lowest bass signal...I explain later on].

OTOH, as we know, each speaker was tuned differentially at the factory (14 years ago when Magnepan built them, BTW). In addition, I may have mentioned that the wall on the right side is denser (drywall over concrete) than on the left (hollow drywall). This boosts lower bass a little more on the right side.

How good can they get to be? Let me tell you what I think nowadays: If they could last long enough, I'd rather keep my modded MMGs until I can afford 20.7 or something in the 20.x series. I fixed the "fixable" weaknesses in these MMGs. Anything less than 20.x series would still require significant "fixings" in other models because of all the limitations they all share (pun intended :-)).

BTW, that 32hz bass note CAN BE HEARD from my MMGs-- faintly but surely, LOL! The interesting thing is that this happens despite an electrical signal that is already attenuated by about 6db at that point.

Why attenuate it? Well, because that driver shares the mylar with another driver (tweeter, in this case), like many other Maggies do. The lower the signal strength, the lower the IM distortion on the other driver...be it a tweeter or a midrange.

In any event, as we already know, the 6db+ being cut from the music or electrical signal would never have come out anyway. No need to risk having it distort things...and in fact, this further helps the QR tweeter approach true-ribbon clarity much more often.

This particular setup still yields a superbly dynamic planar that DOES NOT need a subwoofer to impress with decent impact. I mean, it hits you and still stays clear and well textured.

Of course the B&W 802D are most impressive because they can go lower by themselves. Yet, my MMGs are more natural-sounding within the range they cover. Anyway, the good thing is that most folks can mod their MMGs to do the same if they wish to walk the walk. I don't think we want to discourage them from doing so, do we?

After all, unless they get 20.x, all larger Maggies "share the Mylar" and ARE single pole...


 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 02:13:29
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
Yes, You are right JBen, the room does have an extreme effect on the performance of a speaker.
Then again one should be aware of that one have a LOT of opportunities to treat the room with various products bought or DIY made.
This is however NOT the case with a speaker that is made with an imbalance from factory.
This is what I am talking about.
To make a speaker as balanced as a company can will give the best starting point for a customer.
However if the company by default and on purpose makes the speaker unbalanced, then the customer is "locked".
The reason for doing this is clearly because the company wanted the speaker play with the big guys with the ability to go lower in frequency.
If they had made the speakers symmetrical, then they would not reach the low frequencies that they can today.
So, it's a compromise.

But at the end of the day, if the customer can not hear this then there is no problem, right!?

Cheers!



The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 09:30:37
JBen
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Yes, I think that your are very correct in that many folks won't hear the resulting effect of such an approach.

One wonders what would have happened if Magnepan had not chosen to do this. In other words, to not make them at all, or to make them "properly" & balanced but at a much higher price. For that matter, if Magnepan had not found similar engineering shortcuts for the other Maggies the planar speaker category would be much much smaller, LOL!

Handicapped as they are, MMGs do offer a low-cost entry point to the world of planars. Furthermore, within a range, the darn things do reproduce music better than other more expensive speakers. That they still serve not just as an introduction to higher-end Maggies but also provide a DIY gateway to very decent music playback is great.

For example, one surprising thing came up around the time I first measured my friend's 802D in 2009. I had just recently added "pseudo-frames" to my MMGs. (This was the prototype for what became my "Stixbees" frame reinforcemnt later on). With the P-F , when I compared distortion figures at the time, the MMGs were better or slightly better than the 802D (in the frequency range they share). I was so surprised, that I DID NOT believe it at first. As I remember it, even at 40hz the 802D were showing 8% distortion during a sweep (each speaker). Fainter as my MMGs were at 40hz they were at 8% (right) and <8% (left). This was dynamically, while doing sweeps. (I have not been able to do pure, single-tone, harmonic distortion tests on those 802D yet).

To be sure, the rooms themselves -- and the corresponding ambient noise -- may have imposed a toll on the accuracy of distortion figures. Nonetheless, by the time the sweeps had reached 1khz, the MMGs were delivering <0.5% where the 802D delivered >1% THD. Given that I could repeat the results, in those days I was mighty proud of the MMGs.

BTW, comparable distortion figures were depressingly high in my un-reinforced MMGs. The fact is that their original MDF frame is very THIN, about 1/2"; much thinner than current MMG models. Lower distortion, more clarity at higher SPL, and part of the deep bass improvements came from just the frame reinforcement.

Yet, frame reinforcement was just one of several tweaks, the totality of which can be done for low or very low investments.

I, for one, was not going to be able to get decent speakers at the time when my wife's illness was costing us so much money. These used MMGs allowed me to get a music system started again. Then they offered more...if I put the DIY work into it.

Thus, I'd like to nurture general awareness of this potential. It is available to others who may fall in my situation, or just for the fun of it. Those who may want to extract more juice from MMGs (and other Maggies) may find surprising how little money it really takes.

LOL, I am currently dreaming of the 20.7 or something similar! However, guess what? I now have to pay my own new huge medical expenses. Then I have to find even more money for a larger place to live in because setting large planars up in the patio simply won't do :-)).

I reckon that this will take time...quite a bit of time.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 11:42:53
Satie
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Posts: 5426
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The MMG are my recommendation for the offhand affordable planar query. Despite the lack of balance in the lower freq limiting the potential of the speaker.

As you go on tweaking and increase the rigidity of the speaker and adjust your room treatments, the basic asymmetry becomes a more significant issue limiting performance.

For the vast majority of people considering MMGs their inherent design limits on performance will never be this asymmetrical tuning. They will never place them ideally nor treat the room, nor power them sufficiently.

Finally, they will stream 128bit MP3, and improve the performance with a single subwoofer placed on one side.

I understand the marketing aspect for the design decision as the target market is not perfectionist audio, just not in the context of the company's basic philosophy.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 12:35:12
JLindborg
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Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
I think You are right Satie!



The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on March 30, 2014 at 18:59:25
JBen
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July 26, 2010
"For the vast majority of people considering MMGs their inherent design limits on performance will never be this asymmetrical tuning. They will never place them ideally nor treat the room, nor power them sufficiently."

Absolutely right, Satie. Let's tell the rest.

In addition, for those willing to do the right things, the MMGs can be tweaked to superb comparative performance. It will not be limited by the asymmetric tuning but it will (usually) be limited by the lack of a true-ribbon tweeter and the need for a larger bass driver for deeper down reach. (But do call Satie for good pointers on Neo drivers & ribbon tweeters!)

In addition, like most other Maggies the TWO REAL limitations -- a single magnetic side AND sharing the Mylar for two drivers-- will remain in your MMGs.

Luckily, even though this is not ideal for faithful reproduction these are no showstopper. In fact, some properly tweaked MMGs will outshine some of their larger monopole brothers in dynamic impact and textures replication (unless you go tweak the larger brothers, of course).

Still, if you want it ALL from Maggies, the 20.x series will be waiting for you when you are ready. In the meantime, Magnepan offers a solid & delightful lineup of speakers that -- despite their design compromises -- will wow true music connoisseurs all over the world, like few speakers can do.

So, treat/tweak any Maggies properly. With a little work, even the cheapest of them will not only delight with MP3s...it will show the true meaning of high resolution audio, from analog LP to DSD/SACD and Blu-ray.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on April 6, 2014 at 08:24:27
This left/right imbalance thing REALLY bothers you, doesn't it? :)

It would be extremely easy for Magnepan to make the tuning dot locations identical for both left and right speakers. Why do you think they don't do that?

Try the experiment I posted in the other thread and see if you can audibly hear the difference between left and right MMG's or 1.6's. It's actually a worthwhile test.

Dave.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on April 6, 2014 at 12:58:03
JLindborg
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Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
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The reason for them to differentiate the left and right from each other is because the speakers can not reproduce the frequencies that Magnepan wanted to target if they were symmetrical.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on April 6, 2014 at 19:16:26
You realize that's not the reason, don't you?
I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the MMG/1.6/etc design. :)

Dave.

 

RE: JL, I just got new MMG sweeps while preparing for tests -- R/L channels, posted on April 6, 2014 at 20:42:27
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
No, actually I am perfectly sure that I am right.
Do You know the reason for tuning buttons and the different distances?
I am sure some other inmates gladly would explain that part of construction fact for You. ;)

Cheers!


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

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