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Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?

69.110.133.185
Posted on February 11, 2011 at 14:28:14
Webnick
Audiophile

Posts: 925
Location: So. California
Joined: October 3, 2005
 Andy and I have been talking about Analysis Audio's speaker specs. AA makes speakers that look a lot like Apogees and/or Maggies. Does anyone have experience with AA speakers and know how AA gets 22Hz out of their Omega speaker? Its like the Magnepan 2.6R in that its a 2 way planar magnetic with ribbon tweeter, but it has a smaller planar area (564"sq v. 609"sq) and yet the 2.6R 'only' goes down to 37Hz. The Omega's ribbon tweeter may be bigger, although I don't know if I have the math right (46.5"sq v. 1/4 X 45"sq = 46.5"sq v. 11.25"sq). And the Omega XO is much lower at 650Hz v. 1000Hz for the 2.6R. Omega' FAQ says they use ultralight materials for their drivers and "huge" magnets. Perhaps, as Andy suggests, AA's low frequency spec is at, for example, -10db! Thoughts?

Finally, FWIW, Jim Winey is reported to have once said he thought the 2.6R was Magnepan's best speaker (as a former 2.6R owner, I proudly throw out that tidbit). :^)


 

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RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 14:42:33
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010



Well, get stronger magnets and move the membrane further away.
That's the basic.
The rest is pure engineering and calibration.

My own are down to 22Hz too without any problems.

PS. And don't use tuning buttons.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 14:48:31
grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7728
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002
 Do they do it? :)
22-20 +/- what? I couldn't see anything on their site at a quick glance. Just 22-20. Maybe they're -10 at 22Hz?

 

RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 15:18:51
DrChaos
Audiophile

Posts: 2063
Location: San Diego
Joined: July 13, 2009
As we know all bass panels intentionally have a low bass resonance used to counteract the dipole cancellation.

The Analysis Audio people could be lowering that resonance point, at significant expense of efficiency.

And then they make up for the efficiency loss by using expen$ive boatloads of neodymium magnets.

Note that their lowest priced (at least in USA) model is about as expensive as Magnepan 20.1s.

 

Got a response from them!, posted on February 11, 2011 at 15:19:32
Webnick
Audiophile

Posts: 925
Location: So. California
Joined: October 3, 2005
 And I quoth:

"The main reason we don't publish those figures is that bass is so room dependent. In the lab, the Omega bass panel is basically flat down to the low twenties. Due to the nature of the drivers, we measure them differently than conventional methods. As an example, in my smaller listening room with no room treatment the Omegas are down about 3-4db at 26Hz. In my other room (which has bass traps) our Amphitryons are basically flat down to below 20Hz.

Our technology is unique to us. As far as I know, we have the only membrane driver with a true suspension. Add a powerful magnetic structure and we end up with a very unique and powerful driver. Being a dipole design, there are many other considerations as well."

I think he's saying they roll off pretty good because if his "Omegas are down about 3-4db at 26Hz" in his "smaller listening room with no room treatment", then they'd be down a lot more at their 'rated' low spec of 22Hz. That's still very impressive and much better than the similar sized 2.6R.


 

RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 15:20:49
Webnick
Audiophile

Posts: 925
Location: So. California
Joined: October 3, 2005
 J - you have Omegas or another model. How do yours compare with Maggies?

 

RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 15:24:33
Webnick
Audiophile

Posts: 925
Location: So. California
Joined: October 3, 2005
 Yeah, they don't post efficiency specs but rather suggest its a 6 ohm impedance speaker so, of course, that's probably 'nominal' impedance and not a statement that its true of the entire frequency response.

 

RE: Analysis Audio specs - how do they do it?, posted on February 11, 2011 at 15:37:26
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Mine are home brewed. hehe
Mainly based on Apogee's design.

Compared to Maggies... well, the only Maggies I have hade are MG IIB and have Tympani 1C.
Mine goes deeper in the bass with more ability to strike higher db in the very same area.
Smoother treble too. But I think that is because I feel that wire tweeter sounds a bit edgy and harsh to my ears.
My Behringer DSP8024 thinks the same when using its RTA. hehe

The Maggies are easier to move though and not as heavy as my DIY are.

I will in the near future make a pair of "Analysis Audio-look alike" bass panels too to measure the main "thing" about them.
The magnet rows are laid out in the same manner as Magnepan's but uses glued on corrugated ribbons on the membrane.
I guess that's why they call it the worlds first 3-dimensional planar.
As some of You know their membrane is glued and suspended on some rubber.
I am not sure I will get the same rubber as they use but I know You can not use too hard and not too soft.
They also use another way of tension tuning too.
But I think I will stick to the Apogee tuning way.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

Looks like some awesome DIY work! Kudos to you! (nt), posted on February 11, 2011 at 16:51:12
David S.
Audiophile

Posts: 3552
Location: Mountains of WNC
Joined: August 31, 2000
 nope, no text here, but I'm plenty impressed!

 

Massive DIY Skillz!, posted on February 11, 2011 at 18:25:49
thetintdoctor
Audiophile

Posts: 292
Location: North Carolina
Joined: April 24, 2009
 JLindborg, those are awesome looking speakers. Maybe you could give us a few details about how you built them. Very Nice!



Since the comprehension of sweet sound is our most indefinite conception...Music,when
combined with a pleasurable idea, is poetry. Without music or an intriguing idea, color becomes pallor. Man becomes carcass, home becomes catacomb. Edgar Allen Poe

 

RE: Great Work!, posted on February 11, 2011 at 19:21:05
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 Now them are Sweat!! Beautful DIY Panels, You got some skills!
Nice work!

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 11, 2011 at 19:25:47
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 I wonder why their ribbons only go to 20Khz, Maggie Ribbons go to 40Khz.
Love to hear a pair of them.

 

Its looks like you have a lot of fun there!, posted on February 11, 2011 at 22:44:29
Webnick
Audiophile

Posts: 925
Location: So. California
Joined: October 3, 2005
 Two computers, three monitors, and a keyboard, all sandwiched by your DIY AA/Apogee look-a-likes - nice!

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 12, 2011 at 03:55:11
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Well, part of it is because of the plastic backing.
But they do not need a second X-over as they only have 2 driver. That's better in many ways.

The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Its looks like you have a lot of fun there!, posted on February 12, 2011 at 03:57:56
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Yes indeed! hehe
Making music is also one of my hobbies.
Now days I use 2 22" flat LCD-screens instead.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Massive DIY Skillz!, posted on February 12, 2011 at 04:10:42
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010



Well... there are some work. Hehe
It's easier to use wire but foil does better job activating the entire membrane.

But there are a lot to describe.
If You make membranes like Analysis Audio You only have to cut straight lines of aluminum and clue it on.
Get some spray glue that sprays a fine mist. Too thick glue will work too but not look as nice and may get messy. hehe

Here is a picture of the Analysis Audio membrane.


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

Even my Apogee Caliper Signatures got close to this, posted on February 12, 2011 at 15:21:31
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 I had in-room measurements of flat to 30hz with -6db at 25hz.

 

RE: Any Pics, posted on February 13, 2011 at 03:46:37
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 Would you have any pics of yours when you were building them?
Would love to see them, if you have a few to share!

 

RE: Any Pics, posted on February 13, 2011 at 04:26:49
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010



I was actually very poor in taking any pics at the time.
Will however take many on my DIY bass panel for my Tympanies.

Here is a picture with the membrane removed.

And also a picture of why You may need Kaptone instead of Mylar. hehehe
But that is if Your amp is prone to send high frequency feedback tones. hrrmm...


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Any Pics, posted on February 13, 2011 at 04:27:13
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010



Ribbon burned.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Any Pics, posted on February 13, 2011 at 04:38:47
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Here are picture collage of DIY "LaFolia" designs.
Some are mine some are made by others. NB.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Great Pics!!, posted on February 13, 2011 at 06:23:24
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 Wow! Thanks for the pics. Great Pics!

Now I don't mind doing some DIY, but that's way out of my leaque. I did Rebuild one of my Maggies Ribbons with their DIY kit. Got it on the first try, but talk about stress, that foil is so thin and fragile, a steady hand is a must.

Really great work you + your Buddies have done!!
A few pics looked like some Perforated steel stators with a grid pattern on them. looked like another pic had a grid similar to Acoustat as well. So a few people running Stat's with the Ribbons.

So on your ribbons you have 3 strips are they backed by a single piece of Mylar? Will ribbons have the ability to go lower if they have a Mylar backing?

I do plan at trying my hand at some DIY Acoustat Panels in the future, already have alot of Mylar and Moray James was kind enough to make a jig up for me to wire the panels. I just got to many things on my plate right now. But I finally have a shop now to work out of, hard to do in my small apt.

I look forward to see your progress on your DIY bass panel for your Tympanies, be sure to take lots of pics!


:O)

 

RE: Ouch!! (nt), posted on February 13, 2011 at 06:24:05
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 nt.

 

RE: Any Pics, posted on February 13, 2011 at 06:26:16
benie
Audiophile

Posts: 1851
Location: Alberta, Canada
Joined: October 24, 2004
 naked shots are always nice. lol :O)

 

RE: Great Pics!!, posted on February 13, 2011 at 09:33:28
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Thanks!

Yes, the blue panel is one of 4 panels from the Acoustat MD240 electrostats.
I am stripping them apart using the hole plate as a foundation for the magnets in my next design.
Going to make some smaller surround planars and so I am going to cut the panels half length. They will be around 60cm long that way.

My ribbons are glued to mylar and are able to play a lot lower then a single ribbon but will not reach much above 22kHz or so because of the added mass of the plastic.
That is mainly because it has larger radiating surface that are able to reproduce lower frequencies adequately.

The corrugated ones are made by a designer here in Sweden.
http://www.dahlbergaudiodesign.se/del1/del1.htm
http://www.dahlbergaudiodesign.se/engelska/eng.htm

Here You will find a lot of info building a membrane.
But I have yet to measure the frequency exactly. I will come to that.

On one of the pictures You can see the back of a planar bass panel.
It looks a bit different as it uses thick steel lengthwise with added led filled bars.
Vibrations? No way! Hehehe


The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 13, 2011 at 20:03:32
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That would be the answer, or part of it. A planar magnetic diaphragm dishes, so only the center of the diaphragm contributes to the bass. Jim Winey patented a planar diaphragm with a surround, designed to obviate that problem. It looks like Analysis has used something like his concept.

If you move more air, you can lower the diaphragm resonance frequency without increasing pole piece spacing.

Other things you can do would include using Neodynium magnets as Dr. Chaos suggests, which would allow you to increase pole piece spacing without losing field strength; settle for lower maximum output, lowering the low frequency resonance a bit won't reduce maximum levels all that much; lower Fequal by increasing the overall baffle size; eliminate the tuning dots, as J. Lindborg mentioned, thereby reducing the dead areas in the diaphragm, but only by using an Apogee-style truncated pyramid (a concept that Harry F. Olson originated with the aim of reducing resonances in loudspeaker enclosures), which also creates a dead area, of a different sort. Of all of these, baffle size is probably the most important.

It's worth noting too that bass response figures for planars are fairly nominal, because they're room dependent.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 14, 2011 at 09:30:22
roger.barbara@bredband.net
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I think the main difference between Apogee/Analysis and Magneplanar, is that the former do not only rely on the tension of the Mylar. There is an additional "suspension" that allows for more stroke of the diaphragm. The Magneplanar have a restricted stroke as the elasticity of the Mylar is limited.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 14, 2011 at 10:07:50
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 That's what I was thinking as well. Not a restricted stroke, as I understand it -- after all, the Maggie woofers can be driven until they slap against the pole pieces, so the diaphragm inflexibility doesn't seem to be limiting Xmax -- but rather the fact that the diaphragm dishes. I'm getting that from Jim Winey's patent on a planar with a flexible surround:

"All of the known prior diaphragm type magnetic speakers have used diaphragms of film type material which are anchored securely around their peripheries to the frame which is rigid with the magnetic backing. In many such transducers, the diaphragm is stretched very tight, but within the elastic limits of the film material. In some instances, the film type diaphragm has been left rather loose. However, in the prior art, the vibratable areas of the diaphragm in such speakers have consistently been caused to flex by reason of the interrelated function of the signal currents flowing through the wires on the diaphragm, together with the magnetic fields produced by the magnetized strips in the magnetic backing. The central portions of the vibratable areas have a very significant movement or excursion away from the normal position in response to the application of signal current in the conductors; but on the other hand, the edge portions of the vibratable areas have remained essentially stationary. As a result, the central portions of the vibratable areas contributes more to the production of sound as compared to the edge portions. Therefore, because the sounds produced in the bass and mid-range frequencies are produced mainly by the central portions of the diaphragm, there is a definite limitation on the magnitude of sounds produced."

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=5&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=magnepan&OS=magnepan&RS=magnepan

OK, so I'm thinking from what people have said that if you covered most of the surface with foil, Apogee style -- and you made a honeycomb structure to reduce flexing (and not coincidentally standing waves) -- and then mounted it to a very compliant surround -- and you have a fairly constant magnetic force across the surface -- the diaphragm might move as a unit, as Jim Winey proposed, displacing more air for a given magnet spacing.

 

RE: Great Pics!!, posted on February 14, 2011 at 15:30:38
hella356
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Long Beach, CA
Joined: June 30, 2006
 Be sure to post your panel building results!

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 14, 2011 at 23:33:57
roger.barbara@bredband.net
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 Here are the pictures from that patent.

http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/page_1.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/page_2.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/page_3.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/page_4.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/page_5.gif

I do not think it will be any improvment over the Magneplanar, Apogee or Analysis techniques already used.

Here are some pictures of the Apogee.

http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Apogee_1.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Apogee_2.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Apogee_3.gif
http://www.twin-x.com/groupdiy/albums/userpics/Apogee_4.gif

 

RE: Great Pics!!, posted on February 14, 2011 at 23:44:42
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 Sure will.
I will probably make a transducer that has uniform piston motion.
I already have design ready for it.
But it all depends on how restless I will become to get the Magnepan/DIY ready.
My piston design will take longer to make as I still have to buy the silicone surround suspension.

And no, I will not give You the design specs on the piston planar. hehehe
The building specs for LaFolia is free to find on the net.

Cheers!
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 05:41:12
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Thanks for posting the pictures. I didn't know the Apogee midrange ribbons were attached at the sides . . .

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 05:49:54
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 The ribbon is not attached on the sides. But the bass panel are.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 06:13:25
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Huh. I didn't think it was, but the patent says "the mid-range transducer is similar to the tweeter transducer in construction except that the edges of the mid-range ribbon are mechanically attached to the frame by foam strips." ?

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 06:16:45
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 I see. It's just semantics I would presume.
I call it bass panel as it mainly produces the lower register and they seem (in this instance) to call it mid.
And it should not be called a ribbon either. hehe
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 06:23:34
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 I assume they're talking about the 3" midrange ribbon? They refer separately to the woofer and call it a woofer. As well as to the tweeter.

 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 06:28:12
roger.barbara@bredband.net
Audiophile

Posts: 2058
Location: Huskvarna
Joined: February 12, 2010
 I think you are refering to two different speakers, Apogee Fullrange and the La Folia! The former is a three way speaker, the latter a two way. The tweeter ribbons are not attached to the sides.



 

RE: Got a response from them!, posted on February 15, 2011 at 09:12:14
JLindborg
Audiophile

Posts: 1037
Location: Uppsala
Joined: April 26, 2010
 I am sorry.
Of course You are right. My bad.
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.

 

RE: Great Pics!!, posted on June 30, 2016 at 20:26:10
andrew2
Audiophile

Posts: 1
Location: Texas
Joined: February 8, 2014
 Reading old posts about building replacement panels for Acoustats. I have 4
1+1 panels 3 are is perfect working order the other melted when applying a
heat gun. Now I am interested in rebuilding the 1 pair . Do you have steps
pics, parts list etc. to rebuild a pair to drop back into original frames.
not looking to rebuild as original want the best sound from 80 hz to 20khz

 

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