List of car dependability

well, they OUGHT to, for that kind of money, posted on February 22, 2017 at 13:52:20
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	Hyundai do it for MUCH less money. Where did Subaru come in the list? Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

Car dependability, posted on February 22, 2017 at 14:21:37

Inmate51

I've observed that, as drive trains and other traditional engine and suspension repair components have improved in reliability and longevity, other items have worsened. Such as bulbs, switches, seals, etc. Even the so-called long-life LED lights are failing within a couple of years. These are not trivial repair expenses.

Could it be that manufacturers are finding new ways to keep their service department revenue from going to near zero?

A few surprises, at least for me ..., posted on February 22, 2017 at 14:28:45
reelsmith. Audiophile Posts: 13129 Location: CT Joined: June 7, 2005 Contributor Since: January 19, 2010	Happy to see Chevy, Buick and Mini above average. Surprised to see Subaru, Infiniti and Nissan below average. As for Jeep, the only surprise there is how they can sell so many when they break like crazy. The power of the "cool" factor, I guess. Dean. reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

I've had a Grand Cherokee (V6 petrol) the last 4 years, posted on February 22, 2017 at 14:43:22

JDK
Audiophile

Posts: 19654
Location: Sydney
Joined: June 26, 2000

And yes, it hasn't been perfect, but the driveline and major mechanical components are rock solid. Front shocks upgraded under warranty. Aircon condenser cracked, replaced under warranty.

I drove 1,500kms in it last weekend at average 30mpg!

The worst are the myriad of shitty plastic mouldings, both inside and out that just need a knock to snap and then fall off.
Most expensive repair so far - the tailgate latch - the microswitch in it failed so the alarm kept going off. $500 .................

OTOH my dad is a Toyota Camry nut (he's has three in a row). Zero warranty issues, zero repairs, zero bits falling off.

Trying to hide from entropy
John K

Subaru is right there on the kist n/t, posted on February 22, 2017 at 15:33:47
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	- "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

But they want me to subscribe, before I can see it., posted on February 22, 2017 at 15:46:43
Timbo in Oz Audiophile Posts: 23221 Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia Joined: January 30, 2002	not! Warmest Tim Bailey Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

RE: A few surprises, at least for me ..., posted on February 22, 2017 at 16:04:37

bcowen
Audiophile

Posts: 1076
Location: North Carolina
Joined: December 19, 2015

And for me, I'm only surprised that Mercedez ranked as high as it did. Absolute worst vehicle I've ever owned (2003 C240). On the other hand, my wife's '04 Lexus RX330 is the best vehicle I've ever owned. Almost 200k miles, and has never had a single thing fail or quit working. My wife has broken it a couple times running into things (stationary objects are her favorite), but can't blame that on Lexus...

I see Subaru just below Chrysler., posted on February 22, 2017 at 16:47:04
FenderLover	I didn't have to subscribe.

Nor did I -- n/t, posted on February 22, 2017 at 17:02:11
kavakidd Audiophile Posts: 20316 Location: Upstate NY Joined: April 15, 2004	- "Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

RE: Isn't JD Power right up there with Good Housekeeping in credibility?, posted on February 22, 2017 at 17:24:15
kitch29	Have they marketed their way to shedding their reputation for bought and paid for? When every consumer goods company is willing to pay for a trophy, how do they decide who wins and loses?

I'll never buy a Mercedes again either, posted on February 22, 2017 at 18:58:41

Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26428
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
Since: February 6, 2012

I just got rid of mine (a 2005 SLK-350 with less than 90,000 miles on it) last month - talk about a black hole of money! It needed a valve job at 70,000 miles. (And, no, I did not fail to change the oil at the required intervals.) One time, as I was sitting in the tow truck while my vehicle was being towed, the tow-truck driver told me that the cars which he towed most often BY FAR were BMW's and Mercedes, closely followed by Audis. I realize that that's anecdotal, but you could not pay me to buy another Mercedes again! A shame, because I still feel to this day that the outer design of that car was visually stunning. (Not to mention all these younger babes who came up to me as I'd get out of the car and wanted to be my friend!)

Just bought a new Acura TLX (the last 2016 left on the lot), with an extended warranty to 7 years, 70,000 miles. I saw one poster who said that he never keeps a car beyond the warranty period. That's beginning to look like sage advice to me.

RE: Subaru is the National Car of Asheville, posted on February 23, 2017 at 04:41:40

kitch29

You'll pay more for a used Subaru here than anywhere else in the country.

Early adoption by the company of "intelligent" 4 wheel drive for the frequent Black Ice conditions, Adverts by Martina Navritalova back when Asheville was becoming known as a haven for Lesbians (hence the term Lezbaru), and just plain won't quit reliability make it the most popular brand in the mountains.

I paid $16,000, at the high end of NADA for my 60,000 mile 2006 Forester in 2010. Now it has 121,000 with front brakes and a fan belt needed beyond oil changes.

North Carolina has vehicle personal property tax and last Fall I was pissed they valued a 10 year old car with then 117,000 miles at $7500. There's a form for challenging the valuation which involves submitting an estimate from a dealer. The dealer, not the one I bought from, told me $7500 was about right and offered me $7,000 right then.

I drove 6,000 miles to Portland, Oregon and back last October with not a hiccup; hundreds of miles at 10,000 feet plus. When I got back I took it to the mechanic I use for new tires and have it looked over. He commented, "it's finally starting to break in".

I see a lot of newer Foresters and especially Outbacks that have grown to seemingly twice the size and have all the electronic doodads. Perhaps Subaru, like so many companies, has lost it's quality nature due to complexity, trading on the reputation while cutting corners, or maintaining a price point. Or perhaps they didn't pay off J.D. Power.

RE: Subaru is the National Car of Asheville, posted on February 23, 2017 at 06:22:29
Todd A.	I had considered an Outback, but held off due to reservations about post-100K miles service issues and cost of ownership after that point. The cars had a bit of a rep for head gaskets going out shortly after 100K miles, resulting in an expensive repair. Issue fixed in later models? I tend to keep cars for a very long time.

tons of 'em (Subarus, that is) in Northern New England, too, posted on February 23, 2017 at 06:31:35

mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16010
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
Since: October 23, 2016

Their 4WD system is widely reputed to be 'the best'.
They've been very popular in New England for decades (even before they were seen much elsewhere in the country).

Otherwise, they're expensive and a little crude compared to their competition.

Mrs. H looked hard at the Forester -- but bought a CR-V last year.

I have no doubt that the Forester is better when it's nasty out -- but it is just not as nice as the Honda (or the RAV4) and its even more expensive than either at a similar level of trim (and not as "nice", for lack of a better word, at that).

all the best,
mrh

RE: A few surprises, at least for me ..., posted on February 23, 2017 at 07:18:40
Inmate51	"My wife has broken it a couple times running into things (stationary objects are her favorite)," Hahahahahahahahaha! :)

RE: I'll never buy a Mercedes again either, posted on February 23, 2017 at 07:23:26
Inmate51	"(Not to mention all these younger babes who came up to me as I'd get out of the car and wanted to be my friend!)" There's a price to pay for free sex... It's called "Mercedes". :)

RE: I've had a Grand Cherokee (V6 petrol) the last 4 years, posted on February 23, 2017 at 07:35:14
Inmate51	"the tailgate latch - the microswitch in it failed so the alarm kept going off. $500 " See my earlier post about bulbs and switches. $500 for a f-ing switch! THIS is what I'm talking about. :)

RE: tons of 'em (Subarus, that is) in Northern New England, too, posted on February 23, 2017 at 07:35:47

kitch29

My 2006 Forester Limited is very plain inside but rides well and is capable of very entertaining cornering. The seats are very comfortable, proven on my 2800 miles in 4 days adventure last year. I have no use for the electronic doodads that are required to find the nearest Charbucks and pay no attention to the furnishings.

I thought about a new CRV in 2010 but it looked like a running shoe, I didn't want to finance, and found this Forester.

Wind noise is a constant issue and I've heard that the 4 wheel drive transfer thingamabob is a not uncommon issue after about 125,000 miles. Before I bought I constantly accosted drivers of older looking models in parking lots and asked about reliability. Answers ranged from "no problems to, "are you kidding? 225,000 without a major repair". Lots of the latter.

Interesting but somewhat contrary to my experience, posted on February 23, 2017 at 07:52:27

Ross
Audiophile

Posts: 1814
Joined: January 24, 2000

I agree with MB and Chevrolet rated highly. We have enjoyed ownership of 2 MB vehicles; 1995 e320 wagon purchased at 75k miles and sold at about 150k miles, and a 2002 e320 wagon purchased at 39k miles (with Starmark warranty) and sold at about 225k miles. Maintenance was expensive (dealer and independent shop) but both were durable and reliable. I purchased a 2000 GMC Denali with 29k miles and sold it at 245k miles. I now drive a 2008 Escalade purchased at 59k miles (now 83k). Both are derivatives of the Chevrolet Tahoe, and both are durable and reliable. I would not hesitate to recommend these trucks to anyone looking for a large SUV.

My wife drove the MB wagons and then wanted something different. She chose a VW Tourag over the MB ML just because it was something different. I purchased the VW with 32k and a 24k extended VW warranty. The VW dealer was among the worst we have dealt with regarding service and warranty claims. Other than an issue with clogged roof drain channels that VW has been fine, though my wife remarked that she will probably want to go back to the MB when the time comes....smoother driving (I agree).

I disagree with Jeep rated so low. We have enjoyed great experiences with Jeep vehicles over the years. Cherokee (2) in the past, and my children currently drive a Liberty and Commander respectively- both have been very reliable and have not needed much attention other than normal maintenance. I have recommended both vehicles to friends looking for relatively cheap and durable choices for SUV or for children.

When ever I see a group of Lesbians, I comment to my wife that they look like a Subaru owners convention meeting.

RE: Subaru is the National Car of Asheville, posted on February 23, 2017 at 09:26:36
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9621 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	Never heard of this issue. We've had four Subarus including two Outbacks.

RE: Subaru is the National Car of Asheville, posted on February 23, 2017 at 09:33:15

Todd A.

It would appear that you were fortunate. See link.

Subaru head gasket issues

RE: List of car dependability, posted on February 23, 2017 at 09:35:45
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9621 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	So, I never put much stock in Powers rating and I still don't. If you read the entire story they count things such as voice command not correctly recognizing a command correctly. Baloney. Worthless report, IMO.

Here is the problems with these lists., posted on February 23, 2017 at 10:08:29

Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005

Cars today are pretty reliable to 150k miles on average with proper maintenance and I mean most cars.Whether it be JD Powers or Consumers Reports,they all grade on a curve.

The difference between the first place car and 30th place car can literally be .2 problems per 100 vehicles.That's nothing when you look at the overall picture.

The other issue is the fact that they don't take into consideration longevity of time ownership.That is when major problems are more likely to occur and more times than not,cars that were reliable in their infant years can become problem hounds as they reach 10 years old. Honda was an example of this with rust as was Toyota Tundra with their pickup frame rails.

Lastly,look how many car brands were recalled because of Takata airbags,or
wiper motors from another brand. Cars today are all getting their parts from the same suppliers on average.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

"while Toyota leads non-premium labels,", posted on February 23, 2017 at 10:10:30

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

No surprise. Lexus is Toyota's luxury brand. Our family has owned many Toyota vehicles over the years. I broke ranks quite a while ago out of boredom! Reliability is nice, but I'm not into boring vehicles anymore. ;-)

P.S. I still have my 1998 4WD Toyota Tacoma pickup (2nd vehicle, not my daily driver) with low miles on it, only 156K. Probably good for another 100K or so. I park it outside and typically get a couple notes under the wiper blade each year asking if I want to sell it. Nope. ;-)

RE: That's a PSA, thanks, posted on February 23, 2017 at 10:19:59
kitch29	My car has a had a burnt coolant smell for 15,000 miles but my mechanic says the cooling system is fine. He works on tons of Subarus but this is worth looking into.

RE: That's a PSA, thanks, posted on February 23, 2017 at 10:45:28

Todd A.

This link is also useful. Apparently, Subaru insisted that the problem was caused by the use of coolant lacking a MFR specified conditioner. I think my position would be that if your head gaskets require that kind of a crutch to make it past 100K miles, your engineering was deficient to begin with.

I've been driving Hondas for years, so my standards as to what constitutes acceptable required maintenance may have become a bit shaded. The last Honda I got rid of was a 2002 Accord that we gave to our daughter with 225K miles five years ago. She's still driving it.

https://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gaskets-problems-e

RE: List of car dependability, posted on February 23, 2017 at 10:51:11
Inmate51	I haven't had a car loan payment in ten years. That's "money in the bank". :)

Odd., posted on February 23, 2017 at 12:16:43

grantv
Manufacturer

Posts: 7724
Location: B.C.
Joined: January 15, 2002

Went on twice earlier to the link and was OK, now tells me I need to be a subscriber?
Regardless, I generally see JD Power about the same as The Enquirer.
Add that I've known many people with Toyota reliability problems, and extremely few with Honda, so my experience tells me something different. My BMW's for the most part have been quite dependable, but my buddies X5 not so much. My Corvette has been very reliable, even though C5's are somewhat known for certain issues.
Greatly depends on the year, model, when it was made, fluke...

RE: One more thing..., posted on February 23, 2017 at 13:05:04
Todd A.	You might be well advised to have it checked at the dealership. Depending on the year and mileage of your vehicle, the dealerships have been known to pick up a substantial percentage of the repair cost.

RE: Subaru is the National Car of Asheville, posted on February 23, 2017 at 14:43:21
Sondek Audiophile Posts: 9621 Location: Fort Worth Joined: May 17, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	I guess maybe we have been. Have a 2011 Outback with 3.6L and bought the daughter 2014 Impreza hatch last Fall. The other two we had, a 2004 Forester and 2007 Outback, were sold/traded before they got to the 100k mark. So timing, maybe? This 2011 Outback with the 6cyl is a keeper. Great car. Best we've ever had in fact.

Yep, posted on February 23, 2017 at 15:50:42
JDK Audiophile Posts: 19654 Location: Sydney Joined: June 26, 2000	Everything comes in some assembly now so you have to buy the $500 assembly instead of the actual broken $20 component. It's gunna hurt when one of the HID lights breaks. Bloody awesome lights, but instead of a $25 bulb, it's going to cost hundreds! I think this is a general trend with all modern cars. Trying to hide from entropy John K

RE: I'll never buy a Mercedes again either, posted on February 23, 2017 at 15:54:21

bcowen
Audiophile

Posts: 1076
Location: North Carolina
Joined: December 19, 2015

The C240 went about 3 months at a time between dealer visits. It was an '01, not an '03...my mistake, as I traded it on the '04 Lexus just before the three year warranty expired. First it was the key fob. Just stopped working. Left my wife stranded - she could get in the car, but being an all electronic key system it wouldn't start the car. Neither fob worked. Got that fixed, 3 months later they quit working again. 3 months after that, dead again. I told them to come get the car, drop me off a loaner, fix it and bring it back to me. They refused until I indicated I was ready to file a lemon law claim (which in OK at the time meant full refund of the car's purchase price), and they changed their tune and picked it up. 3 months later the car wouldn't start, ended up with a new computer (ECU). $4800 if it had happened out of warranty. Then the bushings on the front sway arm started creaking and making godawful sounds. Next the driver's side window quit functioning (fortunately when it was up, it just wouldn't go down, but kind of a PITA at a toll booth), then the cruise control quit, then the sunroof wouldn't close (and unfortunately it was open when it quit). The last tow was when the transmission wouldn't shift out of park. Turned out to be a faulty switch (not the tranny itself), but I was done with the car at that point and with only 2 months of warranty left I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. I figured I would have had a lot fewer problems with a Jeep. :)

RE: Yep, posted on February 23, 2017 at 16:33:50

Inmate51

You can thank the environmentalists for that.

RE: List of car dependability, posted on February 23, 2017 at 17:19:00

pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008

My brother had a Subaru Justy he couldn't KILL. He lived in Idaho, 'up the hill' at that point and car worked well in some really adverse conditions.

In 2001 I toured back East (Fall Foliage) and saw the Biggest Subaru dealer I Ever saw. Thousands of 'em, seemingly.
Lots of 'em on the road, too, all up and down those graded roads beyond the winter gates.

Saw some Volvos, too but practically NO cars from BMW or Merc.
Too much is never enough

Mini is a huge surprise ..., posted on February 23, 2017 at 18:00:11

Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16242
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
Since: March 1, 1999

Just wait until they hit 80,000 miles or so.

Those lists based on the the first year or so are typically suspect as they surely can't predict long term failures. We have a 2012 Nissan Frontier, 2015 Toyota Prius C and 2017 Mazda 3 plus a '97 BMW and couple of old MR2s. The only one of the newer cars than had a defect was the Toyota, the glove box wouldn't stay shut.

Long term, the BMW has been the worst, not for mechanics, but electronics and extras. The top had to be fixed twice and now we just give it a hand to get it down. The computer display has only half the dots and the backlight went out, so it's next to useless. It;s only got a little over 100K on it and we've done the water pump twice along with a new fan that gets destroyed when the pump bearing blows out along with a fan clutch. Now, to get rid of a check engine light to smog it, I just bought a Camshaft Solenoid Adjuster for $350.

The drivers seat recline motor stripped a gear too which I haven't been inclined to bother fixing.

-Rod

RE: Mini is a BMW product now isn't it ?, posted on February 23, 2017 at 18:17:20

AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
Since: February 2, 2002

re: BMW - They're so much fun you put up with all the little maintenance and repair annoyances.

I've had a few "Certified Pre Owned" BMWs over the years, all only two to five years old. They're a load of fun! But each one of them has had some stupid annoyance that had to be dealt with. Fuel pump recall, tail light recall, headlight fogging up due to moisture recall, minor noises in the dash or headliner that bug the heck out of me. (So I turn up the stereo). They're fun but sometimes annoying. All the repairs were fortunately covered under the "Certified Pre-Owned" warranty program, along with a free loaner BMW.

Yeah, it is the most fun to drive...., posted on February 23, 2017 at 18:50:30

Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16242
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
Since: March 1, 1999

Slamming it into second gear and powering out of a tight sweeping corner is too much fun. That why we still have it. Having been garaged it's whole life and only being a Sunday driver for the first 10 or 12 years, it's in nearly pristine condition.

My son's driving it now and just put new 16" 225 rubber on it, so I need to get the top down and take it out on the back roads after it gets the new Vanos installed.

It also could use some new struts.

Though I have to say, the kid's '86 Super Charged MR2 with tweaked out suspension and 16" tires is a little pocket rocket.

Edit: My neighbor had a late model Mini that I don't believe had excessive mileage. They spent months and plenty of money on it with the dealer that couldn't fix it. I never understood exactly what was wrong with it, some intermittent problem maybe. It disappeared when anohter car appeared.

-Rod

No, I think it's a part of the new auto industry business model, posted on February 23, 2017 at 20:01:29

JDK
Audiophile

Posts: 19654
Location: Sydney
Joined: June 26, 2000

1/ Sell the new cars at a very low margin.
2/ Offer extended warranty - because you have to.
3/ Get a big population out there on the road.
4/ Charge $500 for every 10,000km service!
5/ As they get older and need parts, charge $500 for a wing mirror, $400 for a door handle, $1,400 for a steering column, $800 for a blown headlamp .......

It's a long term plan that keeps them making money while we think we're getting a good deal.

Trying to hide from entropy
John K

RE: No, I think it's a part of the new auto industry business model, posted on February 24, 2017 at 00:42:31
Inmate51	Well, it probably is, but, it's driven by government requirements for fuel usage which are driven by the environmentalists. It's a little surprising that auto manufacturers are even able to build cars anymore without making them entirely out of plastic or paper mache. I remember when I could adjust a headlight... :)

Surprised me too ..., posted on February 24, 2017 at 08:31:18
reelsmith. Audiophile Posts: 13129 Location: CT Joined: June 7, 2005 Contributor Since: January 19, 2010	Cars can get a lot better, or worse, in ten years time. So, to have had a good or bad experience with a car ten or more years ago is no guaranty the same will happen again. Then again ...maybe it will. Dean. reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.

RE: That's a PSA, thanks, posted on February 24, 2017 at 09:07:07
SpotcheckBilly12345	Burnt coolant smell? Look for seepage at the heater core or the hoses that feed it. Just a possibility :-) Cheers, SB

Hmmm.., posted on February 24, 2017 at 11:25:20
Lee M	Jaguar, BMW, and Mini are more reliable than Acura? I have to take that one with a grain of salt or two. Move over Enquirer.

A hybrid of sorts..., posted on February 24, 2017 at 11:40:07

Lee M

I don't know if they changed it around any but 4-5 years ago when I was still working a Mini tech told me it had a German electrical system, a Japanese transmission, and a French engine. This was after he had quit and gone back to a Honda dealer to work. He said the main reason he did that was because he had issues presenting repair estimates that were consistently for 1/4 of the car's value. On the other hand I've never talked to any Mini owners about the car who didn't say it was an absolute blast to drive.

Great points, posted on February 24, 2017 at 16:19:15
Awe-d-o-file Dealer Posts: 21037 Location: 50 miles west of DC Joined: January 10, 2004	And remember less affluent people buy cheaper cars and keep them much longer too ET "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

Ah, you figured out that dealers don't make their money selling cars...., posted on February 24, 2017 at 18:03:48
Rod M Web Geek Posts: 16242 Location: So. California Joined: March 1, 1999 Contributor Since: March 1, 1999	The service department is the cash cow. -Rod

RE: Mini is a huge surprise ..., posted on February 28, 2017 at 12:32:42
pictureguy Audiophile Posts: 22597 Location: SoCal Joined: October 19, 2008	WOW! Sorry about your Bimmer. My word was that they had Transmission troubles? Wifes new Mazda is working well and my decade-old Honda Element with only 75k is great. Too much is never enough

RE: Mini is a huge surprise ..., posted on February 28, 2017 at 13:31:47

Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16242
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
Since: March 1, 1999

No, the trannie has been fine, but it's a stick. We did replace the clutch around 80,000 which seemed a bit soon to me. The wife had been driving it mostly around town with lots of hills with stop lights and she always tended to over rev it up for fear of stalling or rolling back, so I didn't blame the car.

Seriously, other than the fact that the water pump has a poor bearing design which destroys the fan blades when it gives up and wobbles, we really haven't had any real engine issues. It still runs like a champ and it's about 20 years old.

Our problems have been the extra luxury items like the automatic convertible top which is a nightmare of switches, sensors and motors and bungy cords.

-Rod

RE: Mini is a huge surprise ..., posted on February 28, 2017 at 17:31:58

pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008

Wife's former Camry ate a waterpump at about 40k and I replaced it with a Bosch. Not known for waterpumps, it has been perfect for quite a while.

The real pisser with that car were the sunshades which were JUNK, very expensive as parts, like 130$ for just the regular one and eventually replaced @recall.

Want a complex power top? Try the Ford Skyliner from late 50s. Multiple motors, relays and about a mile of wiring!
The one in the photo actually WORKS. And prints on the page 90'CCW from correct!
Too much is never enough

Inmate Central

List of car dependability

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