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the "young guns" of post-bop?

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Posted on August 25, 2017 at 07:35:36
Jim Pearce
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 Well, not so young anymore, but I think of guys like Joshua Redman, Christian McBride, Roy Hargrove and Brad Mehldau. All estimable musicians no doubt, but the only album I have by any of them is "Moment to Moment" by Roy Hargrove because my wife likes that kind of "with strings" thing.

Anyway, I'm just musing out loud now, but likely one (or more) of these is true:

1. Jazz is dead if musicians this good can't really advance the art.
2. I'm close to dead. My problem is my fixation on the late fifties and early sixties: Miles, Coltrane, Bill Evans et al.
3. I just haven't listened to the right albums.
4. These aren't the right guys, or maybe even the right kind of guys.
5. The new direction is/will be different from post-bop in some fundamental way I haven't grasped.

Feel free to set me straight.

 

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RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 25, 2017 at 09:47:04
suretyguy
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Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 "1. Jazz is dead if musicians this good can't really advance the art."
"4. These aren't the right guys, or maybe even the right kind of guys."

According to some jazz is already dead or in need of having the last rites pronounced...but this thought has existed for years. The musicians you name are not really indicative of any advances in the music, but, each in his own way, is an expert practitioner of the tradition established back in the late fifties or early sixties. Highly enjoyable, but not moving the music forward...whatever that means..

There are a number of fine musicians whose current work is far different, although almost always an extension of the tradition, some of them young and others who've been around for a long time: Kamasi Washington, Robert Glasper, Ambrose Akinmusire, Matt Mitchell, Matt Wilson, Jon Irabagon, Nels Cline, Kris Davis, Liberty Ellman, Steve Lehman, Esperanza Spalding, Andrew Cyrille, Craig Taborn, Mary Halvorson, Roscoe Mitchell, Oliver Lake, Darcy James Argue, Maria Schneider (compare her recent work with her earlier things), Nicole Mitchell, Jason Adasiewicz, Matthew Shipp...and on and on.

How much of an "advance" some of these musicians represent may be arguable, since much of it seems to be an extension and/or variation of stuff Ornette Coleman and others did years ago...but at least they're looking to do something other than the same old, same old museum pieces. Of course, one may wonder, as I do, about the efficacy of melding jazz with rap/hip hop.

Do I like all of this music? Hell no, but I try to keep an open mind and find that there is a lot to like.

"2. I'm close to dead."

Hey, at least you're still breathing.

"My problem is my fixation on the late fifties and early sixties: Miles, Coltrane, Bill Evans et al."

Until recently (Just moved from Kansas City to Saint Paul to be near the grand kids) I was part of a jazz listening group that gathered every few weeks to listen, talk and imbibe a little. There was a fixed group of four with usually 2-4 guests. One of the ongoing struggles we had was between those with a fixation similar to yours and those of us who wanted to expand the core to music that was a bit more adventuresome and challenging. Occasionally something new would strike a chord with the conservatives, but pretty much everyone stuck to their preferences.

I wouldn't worry too much, however, about your dilemma. The music you prefer is probably for most jazz fans the "classical" period in the history of the music and, as such, worthy of continued support and enjoyment.


 

RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 25, 2017 at 10:34:38
Travis
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Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 Enjoy what you like. Yes, sometimes I feel obligated to stretch a bit but if I'm not diggin' it ............ why bother?

Tempus does fugit.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 25, 2017 at 10:39:49
GEO
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Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I highly recommend this video. There is often this debate between what I call pre 1965 jazz and post 1965 jazz. Jazz is a continuum. In my mind, the biggest change has been in the "advances" in approaches to rhythm and time. That old hi hat or ride cymbal is just not used in the same way today.

 

...are derivative an lack a unique voice (if that matters). nt, posted on August 27, 2017 at 00:51:29
viridian
 Nt

 

RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 27, 2017 at 06:24:44
DaveT
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Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 In addition to you extensive list, I would suggest a few middle aged musicians you might enjoy.

Branford Marsalis
Cyrus Chestnut
Winard Harper
Marcus Printup

Pushing the envelope is a group like "The Cookers."
One of the members of this Group Billy Harper seems to be searching ala Coltrane or Pharaoh Saunders. If you want something that is moving away from Post Bop - Billy Harper is someone to checkout.
DaveT

 

I'm no purist..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 07:10:03
Jim Pearce
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Posts: 23677
Joined: January 4, 2002
 An important aspect of jazz has always been the re-interpretation of popular music. I do however wonder if Esperanza Spalding and Robert Glasper are any more vital than Diana Krall and Danilo Perez. One thing has been true for the past twenty years: only "jazz" that is close to pop is in any danger of going platinum or winning a Grammy.

 

Orrin Evans and Jeremy Pelt to name just two...//nt, posted on August 27, 2017 at 07:47:43
MaxwellP
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Posts: 1622
Location: New York
Joined: September 19, 2007
 Nt

 

RE: I'm no purist..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 08:01:42
GEO
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  Since: September 9, 2000
 Jazz has always been a re-interpretation of popular music.....? I used to think like that, but when you consider jazz from 1965 to present....52 years, is that statement true? Think about jazz from 1950-1965....that is only 15 years....

 

not what I said, nor what I believe..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 08:06:11
Jim Pearce
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 I said it was one aspect of jazz.

 

RE: not what I said, nor what I believe..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 08:40:09
GEO
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 OK. I mis-read it. I focused on -- an important aspect of jazz has always been the re-interpret contemporary music-- and I wondered how big a part of jazz has that really been over the past 52 years? Prior to say 1962, that was a very big part of mainstream jazz.

 

even Coltrane at his peak..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 10:32:55
Jim Pearce
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Joined: January 4, 2002
 "Greensleeves", "My Favourite Things", etc.. Pretty radical interpretations! I would definitely come down on the side of originals such as "India", "Impressions", "Naima" and "Crescent" if I had to choose. I agree that this became more problematic in the 1950s, but this was a result not only of a change in jazz but popular music too. The great songwriters of Tin Pan Alley were never more than a beat away from jazz; whereas even Coltrane couldn't be convincing doing Jimmy McHugh's "Too Young To Go Steady".

 

RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 27, 2017 at 10:54:48
fantja
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Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I dig all of those guys mentioned- Jim.
As luck would have it, Jazz, is far from dying.

 

RE: I'm no purist..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 12:25:23
suretyguy
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Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 "I do however wonder if Esperanza Spalding and Robert Glasper are any more vital than Diana Krall and Danilo Perez."

I wasn't really trying to talk about qualitative differences, just that there are things out there that are interesting and worth taking a listen to. I enjoy both Krall and Perez and, frankly, don't enjoy some of Spalding and Glasper. In fact, what I like most about the latter two is the stuff closest to more "traditional" jazz. (The purpose behind Spalding's alternate personality escapes me.)

"...only "jazz" that is close to pop is in any danger of going platinum or winning a Grammy."

You're right about that. But what wins a Grammy is often not anything close to the best possible choice. It tends to be what the voters have already been familiar with, have heard the name somewhere or what's been hyped the most. I doubt most of the voters have even a passing acquaintance with jazz.

 

RE: even Coltrane at his peak..., posted on August 27, 2017 at 12:51:37
GEO
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Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I agree. Popular songwriting, in large part has gone down hill....btw, Donnie McCaslin did a cover of Drowning Man by U2. Its great!

 

RE: the "young guns" of post-bop?, posted on August 27, 2017 at 13:36:06
GEO
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Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Roy looked good. Still a good player but life has been hard on him. Sad.

 

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