Jazz Alley

From Louis Armstrong to Charlie Parker to the new greats of today, this is the place for Jazz!

Return to Jazz Alley

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

Art Blakey

69.180.152.83
Posted on August 4, 2017 at 20:22:53
suretyguy
Audiophile

Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 First, I'd like to say that I agree that Blakey is, by consensus at least, among the greatest jazz drummers ever.

Second, and perhaps somewhat controversially, I have never personally really liked his work as a drummer, especially when compared to other early modern jazz greats such as Max Roach, Kenny Clarke, Art Taylor, Roy Haynes and Denzil Best, hell, even Shelly Manne or Stan Levey. While all of these players seemed to propel and lift a band and allowed it to float around them, Blakey always seemed to me to chug along and almost hampered the forward momentum of a group. In my view he played too much, but, unlike someone like Elvin Jones, for example, he didn't seem to me to drive the band in spite of all the thunder.

Having said that, I should mention that I probably own and enjoy at least 20 or 25 of his LPs and a nearly equal number of CDs. But that's because of his incredible knack for finding and developing superb young musicians who could not only play, but in many cases also were excellent composers. For that ability alone he belongs in the jazz pantheon.

Obviously almost no musicians would agree with me on this and I may be a minority of one on this board, but this is a matter of personal taste and I put it out there for potential comments.



 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
I don't like him at all..., posted on August 4, 2017 at 21:11:07
Jim Pearce
Audiophile

Posts: 23681
Joined: January 4, 2002
 Either as a drummer or as a band leader; but then again, jazz drumming is hard. I'm often reminded of Monty Budwig's wife's famous line: "So many drummers, so little time.".

 

Blakey, posted on August 4, 2017 at 22:16:48
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15387
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 well, mostly. of COURSE there are particular examples of which i do not have at my fingertips.
...regards...tr

 

RE: Art Blakey, posted on August 4, 2017 at 22:36:14
Tweaker456
 I must say I'm certainly no expert but including Max Roach in any sentence with the word great in it strikes me a being a bit excessive. Quite possibly the least inspiring drummer of all time, IMHO. Tweaker456

 

RE: Art Blakey, posted on August 5, 2017 at 05:27:01
suretyguy
Audiophile

Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 I would submit that your assessment of Max Roach might be a bit off base. Kenny Clarke is, I think, widely regarded as the quintessential early bebop drummer, but Roach expanded upon Clarke's ability to propel and float a band by adding accents that significantly enhanced the momentum of any group in which he played. The Clifford Brown-Max Roach Quintet of the mid-1950s with Harold Land, Richie Powell and George Morrow, was certainly a prime example of what I'm talking about.* And, I might add, if there had to be drum solos (of which I have never been much of a fan), Roach took such things to a new level.

*I'll admit my bias toward this group, because their version of Stompin' At the Savoy, which I heard in a music store on an extended play 45 (remember those?), was the single largest factor in my becoming a life-long jazz fan.

 

I'm completely and..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 05:58:23
erik
Audiophile

Posts: 1145
Location: New England
Joined: April 3, 2000
 ...absolutely with you. Most overhyped, very noisy and annoying, with zero (0) creativity. Never liked him.

"Having said that, I should mention that I probably own and enjoy at least 20 or 25 of his LPs and a nearly equal number of CDs. But that's because of his incredible knack for finding and developing superb young musicians who could not only play, but in many cases also were excellent composers. For that ability alone he belongs in the jazz pantheon." -

You said it man. So true, I can't add anything to this. When folks try to put him above Roach, that sounds, to put it mildly, funny. He was productive, in a good way, until the end of his life.

Of course opinions are just opinions, we are all entitled to one ;-)

 

Holy Catlett! I may have to start banning people on my first day as a mod :-) , posted on August 5, 2017 at 08:11:36
Rick W
 There are certainly drummers whose playing I prefer over Blakey. But I really can't understand anyone saying he didn't propel a band, which IMO was one of his strengths. The guy had great time and was the anchor of his groups. Another strength was *dynamics*. His bands were models of playing tunes/charts with dynamic contrasts, and that came directly from Blakey as the leader, and his own playing exemplifies this. He also really tailored his playing to the individual tune and emphasized the tune's form, definitely including his solos - many of which were killer IMO.

Some of you guys mentioned Max Roach. Well, here's a quote about Blakey from Roach:

"Art was an original...- He's the only drummer whose time I recognize immediately. And his signature style was amazing; we used to call him 'Thunder.' When I first met him on 52d Street in 1944, he already had the polyrhythmic thing down. Art was the perhaps the best at maintaining independence with all four limbs. He was doing it before anybody was."

As the OP mentioned, I think his greatest contribution was as a talent scout, leader and teacher. Man, who else had such an amazing number of fantastic players/writers in his/her groups? His alumni could fill a jazz Hall of Fame, and his groups were constantly *working* and recording - no mean feat. I've read interviews with some of the superb jazzers who played in Blakey's groups who describe playing with Blakey's band as one of the great learning experiences of their musical and professional lives. He literally taught some of 'em how to be a professional jazz musician: how to dress for gigs; stage demeanor; basics like showing up on time and sober for gigs; establishing a rapport with audiences etc.

Well, we're all entitled - though anyone who disagrees with me on any subject is obviously nuts!


 

" ... hell, even Shelly Manne ... ", posted on August 5, 2017 at 08:48:11
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 What do you mean by that snarky remark about my man Shelly Manne???

In my pantheon of great drummers, he's #2, right after the untouchable
Jo Jones (of Basie band fame).

Not to denigrate any of the other drummers you mention, but imho, Manne
is head and shoulders above all of them except Max Roach. YMMV, of
course ...

And BTW, if you want to hear some of the best jazz ever recorded,
get hold of "Shelly Manne and His Men at the Blackhawk". There
are 5 separate recordings, all done live in 1959. Volume 5 is not
quite as good as the first 4, but still worth having. Check out
the reviews on Amazon and elsewhere. This is desert island music.





Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

Good luck, Rick., posted on August 5, 2017 at 08:49:42
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 You're clearly gonna need it :-)

 

RE: Holy Catlett! I may have to start banning people on my first day as a mod :-) , posted on August 5, 2017 at 09:09:50
Tweaker456
 I didn't think that a moderator was going to be needed for this new forum but I can see now that I should have been elevated to that position. I've known two former Messengers, one is now gone. The story I heard was that one of them was the youngest at the time and was sent out by Blakey to buy drugs. When I met him like two years ago or so he looked like death warmed over. Probably from years of drug abuse. After a couple of months he got sick. I suspected he had less than 6 months left and unfortunately I was correct, as usual. The other is the great Chris Amberger on bass. I get to see Chris about once a month at the Bird and Beckett book store in San Francisco. A unique and awesome player. Keep an eye out Rick for my up and coming,widely anticipated JROTW. I think you'll appreciate it. I'm hoping we can draw some inexperienced listeners in so that they get a chance to be cool also. T456

 

Yeah, unless Severius somehow shows up here I doubt we're gonna have any problems. BTW......, posted on August 5, 2017 at 09:42:13
Rick W
 a Blakey alumni - Valery Ponomarev - played in my band 16/NYC. Went to Berklee with Billy Pierce.

Don't wanna say too much about the drugs thing. Lottsa jazzers went thru a drug period including many of my musician friends and myself. Fortunately almost all the guys I know made it outta that shit, but a few did ruin their health and careers behind it.

Yep, hope we attract plenty of both experienced and inexperienced jazz fans to our new forum. Of course I'll check your post(s) out.

 

By the time I heard Blakey at Kimball's in the early 90's..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 10:30:01
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 his ability to even chug along was hampered. Sure, he was ancient BUT
what was left of his talents had been distilled to what he did best, and he didn't do that very well anymore.

The thunder and power were gone and he struggled just to keep time.

Even his signatures press rolls were painful.

Unfair? Maybe, but he was still playing gigs and charging for them.

It was sad and the band overall was bland and uninspired.

Luckily Blakey left those impressive and great recordings based more on his band leader
choices/skills than on his actual drumming talents. Guy could put a mother of a band together.

Now, Tony Williams - there was a guy could drive a band (probably two bands at the same
time), dance with the rhythm, play with time signatures (like ringing a bell), AND
have enough tricks left up his sleeve to surprise and add a dimension to the music one wouldn't expect.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

"Art was the perhaps the best at maintaining independence with all four limbs."..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 10:31:38
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Right up until Tony Williams showed up.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Yeah, unless Severius somehow shows up here I doubt we're gonna have any problems. BTW......, posted on August 5, 2017 at 10:31:47
Tweaker456
 I forgot Davy Schnitter. I met Dave Schnitter a couple of times way back. He was a friend of a friend. He also was a messenger. You may know him and David Ginsberg also. They were out here in the late 70's early 80's. Ginsberg is an excellent player. I think he is in NJ these days. T456

 

RE: Holy Catlett! I may have to start banning people on my first day as a mod :-) , posted on August 5, 2017 at 10:33:27
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 I was blessed in 58-59 to hear the Moanin' band in Pittsburgh, about the time of the album's release, at one of those funky, long, narrow bars where the band was squeezed between where you sat at the bar and behind the bartender, on some kind of platform. Holy mother of god and all the saints, what a band! Mind was blown and that is no exaggeration. Morgan and Golson were off the hook.

I'm reminded of what a very young Freddie Hubbard remarked after leaving the Messengers for another band. Something to the effect of where's the drummer? He had gotten used to the thunder.

As you stated, Blakey had a wide dynamic range, IMHO, and boy could he propel a band.




"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

B for Bandleader?..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 11:01:51
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Since I doubt you are ever bored.

Excellent choice by the Bored.

And you.

To quote the great Larry Vuckovich: "Straight Ahead Man!".

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Think I only met Schnitter once. Very good player. Don't know Ginsburg. nt, posted on August 5, 2017 at 11:12:26
Rick W
 nt

 

A lotta musicians understandably wanna play until they die. Unfortunately....., posted on August 5, 2017 at 11:54:43
Rick W
 some of 'em continue to perform and/or record even when they lose most of their chops. This can be a more pronounced problem for a drummer. Guess I'm glad I didn't hear Blakey when that happened to him. Of course some musicians do still play very well into their 80's and remain well worth hearing live and/or on recordings.

Wouldn't wanna pick just one fave, but I loved Tony Williams from the first time I heard his playing on Miles Davis In Europe. Heard him live with Miles 7 or 8 times, then with two iterations of his Lifetime groups. He was a knockout each time.

 

I've seen plenty of the old cats..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 12:57:07
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 who could still stand (or sit) and deliver.

Unfortunately that night with Blakey wasn't one of them.

But then I've seen much younger musicians that either weren't having a
very good night OR were just playing by rote.

Such is life.

Never saw Williams live (I don't think...) but listening to most any of his
playing never ceases to amaze me - even if the music doesn't.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Holy Catlett! I may have to start banning people on my first day as a mod :-) , posted on August 5, 2017 at 13:24:15
suretyguy
Audiophile

Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 "But I really can't understand anyone saying he didn't propel a band, which IMO was one of his strengths."

My feeling is that he didn't really "propel" so much as produce a lot of thunder that seemed to propel, but to me just hindered the band's momentum.

"Another strength was *dynamics*. His bands were models of playing tunes/charts with dynamic contrasts..."

I think his playing was pretty one-dimensional and not especially dynamic; for me most of the other drummers mentioned provided far more in the way of dynamic contrasts.

""Art was an original...- He's the only drummer whose time I recognize immediately. And his signature style was amazing; we used to call him 'Thunder.' When I first met him on 52d Street in 1944, he already had the polyrhythmic thing down. Art was the perhaps the best at maintaining independence with all four limbs. He was doing it before anybody was."

Who am I to argue with Max Roach? On the other hand I can't say I've always liked everything he said and/or did either. Regardless, I simply have never cared for Blakey's playing.

Obviously, based on my original post, I'm in complete agreement with your penultimate paragraph.

And, by the way, I'm used to being called "nuts" on the subject of Blakey, since I've argued about him for years with the other members of my long time jazz listening group.

 

RE: " ... hell, even Shelly Manne ... ", posted on August 5, 2017 at 13:42:26
suretyguy
Audiophile

Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 My comment about Shelly Manne was not intended to be snarky. It was actually stated that way because he moved to the West Coast so early on in the early stages of bop that he too often is not given enough credit for the role he played. I think he is associated more frequently with West Coast jazz than bebop.

I happen to think he was as great as you do and I have all of the Black Hawk recordings plus many, many more. Two of my special favorites are Perk Up (with Conte Candoli, Frank Strozier, Mike Wofford, and Monty Budwig) and The Three with Joe Sample and Ray Brown. The latter is also an audiophile favorite, especially the direct-to-disc LP.

 

RE: Art Blakey, posted on August 5, 2017 at 15:11:38
D Harvey
Manufacturer

Posts: 5563
Location: SE Michigan
Joined: May 30, 2001
 He's not my favorite, but I do really love many records that he's on. Free For All is one of the most "driven" records I've ever heard. I really like what he plays on Miles Davis' sessions for Capitol (later reissued on Blue Note)from the early 50's. Max Roach's comment about the identifiability of Blakey's time is right on. There's a peculiar tension in it. It could be unsettling at times, threatening to careen completely off the rails. I understand the "noisy" complaint, but this too is part of the charm for me--there's a primitivist element at work there that I think was often very effective. And I can't imagine he could have been any LOUDER than Tony Williams, who's been brought up here a time or two in comparisons.

He does seem to be a widely vilified player as they go. This seems to have had more to do with personal issues than any musical problems but his playing certainly has its critics too, as we seem to be finding in this thread.
dh

 

Liked his supporting role on the Black Lion Monks..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 16:25:48
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Proof one (anyone) didn't want to mess with Monk.

Nor should they.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Liked his supporting role on the Black Lion Monks..., posted on August 5, 2017 at 19:05:33
suretyguy
Audiophile

Posts: 3022
Location: western Missouri
Joined: October 9, 2001
 Yes, he was somewhat more restrained when he played with Monk. Even so, and although he apparently was a favorite of Monk, I prefer other drummers who played with him, e.g., Max Roach, Art Taylor, Roy Haynes, Shadow Wilson, Frankie Dunlop, Ben Riley.

 

Art Blakey - some great records, posted on August 6, 2017 at 03:07:47
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4382
Joined: October 20, 2000
 I don't have many of his recordings but I always liked the Jazz Messengers with Thelonius Monk.

I just love his beat on Pensativa - addictive shuffle. Wonderful arrangement by Wayne Shorter

I heard him live when he was quite old - he was fairly deaf and the communication within the band wasn't great.

 

RE: I've seen plenty of the old cats..., posted on August 6, 2017 at 06:24:34
mes
Audiophile

Posts: 834
Joined: August 7, 2001
 Saw Roy Haynes at Birdlands 60th Anniversary 7 or so yrs ago and on the night I saw him he still had it. Wouldn't give his age but had to be close to 80. He played the opening night of Birdland 60 yrs before. Full circle.

 

RE: Art Blakey, posted on August 7, 2017 at 07:48:13
GEO
Audiophile

Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I love Free For All and The Indestructible as well as Ugetsu. I like Blakey's bands but was never crazy about his drumming. I liked Roy Haynes, Elvin Jones and Max Roach. I thought Blakey was fine but that's it.

 

He's similarly subdued on..., posted on August 7, 2017 at 08:30:10
D Harvey
Manufacturer

Posts: 5563
Location: SE Michigan
Joined: May 30, 2001
 ...Cannonball's album Somethin' Else!!! We used to joke that he must have had a broken arm that day.

dh

 

:-) nt, posted on August 7, 2017 at 11:53:29
Rick W
 nt

 

You must be my Alter-Ego, or something..., posted on August 9, 2017 at 21:15:42
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I LOVE Miles in Europe!!!!!
Those Fast Tempos!!!!
And Autumn Leaves, where he and Ron start playing/walking the up-beats.
WOW.
I also heard Lifetime in Berkeley, would have gone to hear Tony play a Drum-Single!

 

RE: A lotta musicians understandably wanna play until they die. Unfortunately....., posted on August 9, 2017 at 21:20:30
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I played a week's gig in a Big Band with Benny Carter some years ago.
He was in his 80's, and just didn't have it anymore, and kept squeaking.
I really felt bad that he probably needed the money, and really couldn't yet retire.
Wasn't he the first to write for 5 saxes?
Sounds fine on the After Midnight Sessions, w/ Nat Cole.
I used to have the Kansas City Suite w/Basie, all his writing.

 

RE: Holy Catlett! I may have to start banning people on my first day as a mod :-) , posted on August 9, 2017 at 21:24:15
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I love that Press-Roll, and the thing with his elbow on the Tom-Tom.
His Hi-Hat never stopped, even when his solos got very complex.
He's one of the drummers I can always recognize.
OK, usually...

 

I'll Smoke to that... nt, posted on August 9, 2017 at 21:37:08
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

RE: A lotta musicians understandably wanna play until they die. Unfortunately....., posted on August 10, 2017 at 10:04:01
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 Seems like Benny was the father of good, full sax section writing.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

Page processed in 0.046 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]