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Anybody into so-called avant garde?

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Posted on August 10, 2017 at 20:52:39
Rick W
 Maybe my header will spur some discussion.

Anyway, just thought I'd link an online mag called Point Of Departure for those that aren't aware of it. The mag's focus is avant garde jazz, at least what they consider avant garde. I check it out occasionally and sometimes find the writing pretty interesting, including some articles/columns/whatever written by musicians.

I got hip to some players via POD that I might never have known about, like altoist Rob Brown for example, who plays with bassist William Parker's quartet.

Maybe some of you will be interested enough to check out POD's columns and reviews of recordings, and maybe some of you already know about the mag.

 

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RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 10, 2017 at 22:42:45
belyin
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Posts: 1285
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003
 Thanks for reminding to check out Point of Departure; I used to read but I fell out of the habit.

 

RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 11, 2017 at 06:20:42
GEO
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Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 Thanks for mentioning Point of Departure. I drop in on the site off and on. Good website.... for those looking to dabble into avante garde, check out the Clean Feed, CIMP (amazing sound) and Thirsty Ear or Pi labels.

 

RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 11, 2017 at 06:40:13
fantja
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Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Count me in. It all started w/ Ornette Coleman, IMO.

 

What are we calling avant garde?, posted on August 11, 2017 at 07:12:10
andy evans
Audiophile

Posts: 4378
Joined: October 20, 2000
 What about Archie Shepp for instance? Most of his work sounds mainstream modern these days
What about Cecil Taylor? He still sounds avant-garde today, and more daring than contemporary pianists from Brad Mehldau to all the cerebral ECM crop.

If you mean free collective improvisation, this dates back at least 50 years. Not my cup of tea. Since the whole premise is that you don't know what's coming until you play it, it pretty much "is what it is". Some like it, some don't. I don't - any more than I like 12 tone music.

What would be interesting to me is new mostly-tonal music. The way Weather Report was new at the time, or The First 7 Days. Something in jazz corresponding to Alban Berg, Janacek, Bartok in classical music. Even Wagner would be a step forward for most improvisers.

As Rossetti said "Conception, my boy, fundamental brainwork is what makes all the difference in art".

I'm waiting for some new "great thinkers" that have vision and can produce great music. The way Ellington or Zawinul did in their time but now in 2017.

 

RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 11, 2017 at 08:29:12
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I have always liked free playing, we do it in Clar Qt a lot, and it has worked out well, for us at least...
We definitely have a Berg-Like thing we share, and minor seconds abound.
We all went through Unison-Avoidance -Therapy.
( Love the name of the Unison Research Amp Company.
Lots of Research, but still no good Unisons...).
I really do NOT care for screaming, freak-out, double-teeth embouchure stuff, tho.
One album I've always liked is Coltrane at the Village Vanguard Again.
Pharoh sounds like he's talking through his horn, and Coltrane is amazing on My Favorite Things, pushed to the edge and beyond.
Actually, I've heard Pharoh sound very much like Coltrane on some things, ballads, not sure what album.
He got that sound/density that I haven't heard from many Coltrane disciples.
I wonder if he ended up with any of JC's horns or mpcs.
I have heard some Coltrane that I couldn't really take, really screaming,
probably his last Period.
I heard that Freddy Hubbard hated the Ornette Double Quartet Album he played on, thought it was all BS.
The problem with Free Playing is getting variety, not just going to the same place every time.

 

RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 11, 2017 at 08:46:07
GEO
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Posts: 4749
Joined: April 7, 2000
Contributor
  Since: September 9, 2000
 I owned Unison Research Smart 845 mono blocks. They were ok... I ended up reducing the NFB to 3 db and changed the coupling caps to teflons and the amp was much better....the tech that worked on it designed DACs for a lot of companies....he marveled at the engineering of the amp !!

 

Cecil Taylor is the central figure for these guys..., posted on August 11, 2017 at 11:08:28
Jim Pearce
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Posts: 23679
Joined: January 4, 2002
 The publisher was his long-time bassist. But I completely agree with you: the trick is to subtly undermine the form in such a way as to open new possibilities - like Bill Evans, Miles Davis and Coltrane et al did with modal jazz. Even Coltrane's late adventures in free jazz sound more like an agricultural emergency than music to me. Fifty years on "avant garde" has something of an anachronistic ring to it.

 

RE: Anybody into so-called avant garde? , posted on August 11, 2017 at 13:32:31
vacuumtube1954
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: GA
Joined: December 24, 2009
 Yes I'm in.

Ornette Coleman, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Anthony Braxton, Roscoe Mitchell,
Wadada Leo Smith, Muhal Richard Abrams, Sunny Murray, Sonny Simmons...............

 

A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 11, 2017 at 19:08:26
musetap
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Posts: 31875
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Avoid Charles Gayle.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 13, 2017 at 04:18:38
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Yep- Shepp, Sun Ra and Pharoah Sanders are all certainly in that number.

 

Funny thing is I dig those three..., posted on August 13, 2017 at 10:13:19
musetap
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Posts: 31875
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 and am a HUGE fan of Sun Ra (and many insane Marshall Allen solos) but I've never heard any Gayle
that didn't grate my nerves and soul. Most all the "avantish" musicians I've listened to had something
somewhere to offer (within the allotted time I would invest), but not him.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 13, 2017 at 22:12:58
peteSF
 I really enjoy Ghetto Music, and the cover reminds me of the Omega Man zombie- outcasts.
Did you go see the Arkestra last week?

 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 14, 2017 at 14:51:26
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 One has to have quite an open-mind for Sun Ra.

 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 14, 2017 at 18:25:09
belyin
Audiophile

Posts: 1285
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003
 Or quite a closed mind to reject Sun Ra out-of-hand.

 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 14, 2017 at 21:41:24
peteSF
 Good point as Ra does tend to play pretty much everything from jazz standards, bop, show tunes, free, etc. My only complaint is that some of the El Saturn LP's are poorly recorded.
P

 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 23, 2017 at 13:56:02
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 It is a shame that Sun Ra was not better recorded. Perhaps he strived for a low-rez sound?

 

RE: A bit of friendly (and neighborly) advice..., posted on August 23, 2017 at 22:56:44
belyin
Audiophile

Posts: 1285
Location: New Orleans
Joined: November 1, 2003
 While I don't think Sun Ra gave too much consideration to what we audiophiles would call sound quality, there are some well recorded sides in his vast catalogue. In particular search out the two cd's produced by John Snyder for the A & M label in the late 80's: PURPLE NIGHT and BLUE DELIGHT.

 

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