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"series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?

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Posted on September 26, 2016 at 22:03:53
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 as crappy as my vision works, plus the little Klipsch crossover barrier strip, there may not be good connections.

I cobbled up approximately North Readings values and saw only about -25dB effect @146Hz. Their filter = series 12.9mH - - 156uF--3.8R and those put across the woofer. Klipsch's Type A network inductor is 2.5mH - maybe 0.4 ohm dcr.

One difference may be North Reading used a different lowpass filter - perhaps 4mH/100uF (will have to check)

North Reading's graph

here's a rough AJ-sim. imo - looks similar in effect What am I missing besides the brain needed to understand ?


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Gee, maybe because Karlssons are an interesting rathole, ..... , posted on September 27, 2016 at 04:21:06
Timbo in Oz
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Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 for you.







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Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

un called for you need to apologize , posted on September 27, 2016 at 09:59:04
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 The Op is discussing a Klipsch loudspeaker. You have made an ass of your self I think you need to apologize for you very poor and uncalled for behavior.
moray james

 

Yep, sorry., posted on September 27, 2016 at 10:16:30
Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002
 Mea culpa.


Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger


 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 12:22:27
hennfarm
Audiophile

Posts: 535
Location: Oregon
Joined: October 8, 2008
 Variance in drivers tested? Or, as you say,dcr differences in test jig. Source resistance....lots of variables. JH

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 20:10:14
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
 IMHO, I think you're beating a dead horse. I admire your efforts, but
trying to get a flatish response from a K-horn without active EQ
is something I'd not attempt. I do hope you can get it figured out :-)

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 20:29:56
Inmate51
 In addition to the two texts which I recommended in your other thread about this topic, you should also get "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason.

It includes a lot of information about filters. You'll learn a lot.

:)

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 21:21:18
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 I'm not expecting a miracle as had SpeakerLab K ~44 years ago, K-horns in the early 80's, replaced K400 and tweeter with Bruce Edgar's tractrix ~1990. A stock Khorn without attention to time delay between its drivers will sound a certain way. Plus my walls resonate and ring (boom). Its been a few years since I used a Behringer EQ - which can double as the DAC on the Khorns.



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RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 22:06:16
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 thanks - - without a new house, perhaps, time alignment, etc. I doubt if a Khorn would ever sound really right to my old ears There's disassociation of the boomy basshorn/wall combo - from small midhorn and tweeter two feet in front of the midhorn - maybe PWK's false corners would improve things. Kick-drum and tom on Alan Parson's "Soundcheck" have horrific overhang.

I bought these when i had money to help a friend who needed money. An earlier set whose tops were stolen from my house led to getting Dr. Edgar's midhorn around 1990 then a full system centered around little straight midbass horns.

They are pretty and cabinet a marvel of folding.

I'll have to double check North Reading's description of their lowpass filter - it was probably based on the AK4 which used 4mH and 100uF to "boost" the upper end of the basshorn (pulling more power)

my result with stock 2.5mH Type A which has no cap, is in the ballpark of expectations - not really audible vs the "boom"

BEST


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RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 27, 2016 at 22:36:11
Coner
Audiophile

Posts: 3703
Location: S.W. Washington state, USA
Joined: November 17, 2001
 I hear ya....I think if I had lousy walls, bad corners, or too small a space for them, I'd go the LaScala route or non-corner horn.

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 28, 2016 at 00:53:29
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I just happened on this thread and am curious.

With DSP being so easily implimented, woudn't THAT be an easy test solution? THAN, if you want to go discrete, duplicate the filter using 'real' parts?
You don't have to use multiple amplifiers, but can use the large variety of parametric and filter options to construct nearly anything you wish.

Again, just curious if this is a viable approach and if not, than perhaps why not?
Too much is never enough

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 29, 2016 at 11:37:23
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8192
Joined: July 4, 2002
 try values given below

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 29, 2016 at 15:00:27
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 thanks Tom - that seems to make more sense than the "series" (confusing term) filter. Do Khorns sound "tight" in a room whose walls don't excessively flex? mine sound like badly tuned bandpass boxes- do remember somewhat better sound in my old house with oak 2x4 and plaster over lathe.

should I retain the Klipsch 2.5mH woofer choke?

Best,
Freddy
Karlson Evangelist

 

?, posted on September 29, 2016 at 16:44:03
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 I don't see any values.

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 30, 2016 at 07:37:37
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8192
Joined: July 4, 2002
 Yes, just put that in series with what ever it was you had the impedance curve for, that is the load it is based on.
Best,
Tom

You know i never heard a k-horn outside, that would be the only condition where one can count on "no room effects" haha.

Things like resonant walls and floors do not actually cause peaks in the response but instead can put depressions and notches in the response when exciting that resonance.

My bet (based on the general response shape up close and far) is the driver / cabinet combination is what causes that peak and so that filter ought to be pretty close to what it needs.

Can you guestimate how long the horn path is?

 

RE: "series" notch filter with Khorn - why am I not seeing more effect?, posted on September 30, 2016 at 11:20:51
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 I think Art Welter said a K-horn path is ~6.88 miliseconds. I might be able to give the house wall a little thump and see where it rings all by itself - - Hey - I've got a movie for you assuming you've not seen it - search for "VIY" 1967 - a Russian fairy (witch) tale from 1835 - its on Youtube with English subtitles, then also in parts with dub. There was an expensive remake which is in 3D you YouTube but imo no where near as good as the 1967 version.

Do you have any sounds for Halloween? - i could never get out to find a drummer for a test clip.

VIY 1967 Trailer
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RE: ?, posted on September 30, 2016 at 20:21:13
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 they got posted down below in the thread

Posted by tomservo (M) on September 29, 2016 at 11:36:36
In Reply to: RE: - which mic perspective = what we hear? is the boom and indistinct bass my room walls or the Khorn Peak ? posted by freddyi on September 21, 2016 at 15:57:25:

"Hi Freddyi
Sorry for the delay.
What you want is a series tank or notch filter.

Using your magnitude and impedance and eye balling your peak at around 10dB over flat, what you should try is a 3mhy choke, in parallel with 500mfd np and also in parallel 6 ohms.

That is in series with your woofer.
This should flatten your response nicely.
Have fun, best
Tom"


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