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problem with first order network

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Posted on August 8, 2016 at 02:26:40
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
As you can read in my late posts, I've replaced the LaScala bass bins I've been using for years with Peavey FH-1 bins.
The reason was I always found the lS side walls to vibrate too much as some frequencies, blurring the sound and sometimes even buzzing.

Globally I'm happier with the FH-1 sound BUT (in audio there's no free lunch it seems, and most "improvements" come at a price) the FH-1 is so much better it seems to hive a higher bandwith in the mid frequencies, letting much more mid sounds come trough. This isn't a bad thing per se, and is proof of the better construction of the horn

BUT:

...I'm using ALK "Universal" (the expensive original version) networks and it is a 400Hz first order network.
I never had any problem with the LS bass bins because those were acoustically killing the mid frequencies above 400/500Hz before they could reach out the box... FH-1 doesn't kill them, and it does lead to some honky cavernous sounds with some instruments / vocals.

The Universal network from ALK is a great network plus it allows for easy setting of the squawker level; it is expensive and I don't wish to part with it (them).

I'm a little bit bugged as the same network is used by Belle Klispch owners, and the Belle's bass horn is much more alike to the FH-1 with corner reflectors and all, and most likely reaches as high as the latter in the midrange (that's why Klipsch could use a 500Hz midrange horn, instead of 400Hz)

still most people are happy with Universal networks in their Belles, and Klipsch first networks for the belle were the A and AA wich are first order on the woofers.

So what are my options?

1) would it be possible to mod the ALK Universal network and make it 12dB/octave on the woofer only, without completely screwing up the rest?

2) should I buy (or build) separate AP12-400 networks from ALK wich would create a 12dB/oct filter on the bass, and use those in combination with the Universals, as recommended by Al K. on his website (but that would be a very $$$ option)?

3) is there a way to acoustically reduce the midrange coming trough the bass horns, maybe using foam on the corner reflectors or something, but tha would be very light correction with no control over the results?

4) coming back to the Klipsch bass horns is always an option but that decidedly sounds like taking a step backwards and go the easy way...

 

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RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 8, 2016 at 05:50:08
Build a network just for the w bin I would suggest 2nd order keep the rest of the network intact for mid etc Its not hard to do why buy one prebuilt?

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 8, 2016 at 16:48:41
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
Ok looks easy enough indeed.

Is it ok to combine second order low pass on the woofer an first order high pass on the midrange? It won't be phase coherent anymore, is that a problem? can't hear it?

thanks

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 8, 2016 at 17:40:34
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
ALK uses a very small woofer inductor.

Use 2.5mH and a 128µF capacitor.

(as used in many AK and AL networks)

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 8, 2016 at 17:49:22
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
I might try those values on this horn and compare (- could use another one of those Community 12 if Parts Express has one laying around - have not tried 12pe32)

wonder how SM120 behaves with first order highpass and K55? - with no swamping resistor and perhaps 1829, I remember a scooped "devils horn sign" response shape. The old cowbell Altec 511 makes a good rock midhorn imo.

wonder if my LE5 were this weak back in the days of using with
K-horn and Edgar System 100 (?)

7 cubic foot package

Karlson Evangelist

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 12, 2016 at 01:46:39
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
I have more questions :)

1) a 1st order network allows for a correct phase transition between drivers. What happens if you have 12dB low pass on the woofer, and 6dB high pass on the midrange? Does it still integrate smoothly? I know for a fact that my midrange drivers are "phase/time aligned" by ears; there's this location in depth were it suddenly all snaps in together (I'm able to do this because my midrange horn is in a separate enclosure from the bass horn, and it's also much shorter than a K400, wich allows for some back and forth moves). Will I lose this by combining second order with first order?

2) now might be the time to try bi-amping my speakers. I could electronically filter the bass bins, say, 24dB linkwitz-riley and leave the mids and highs cinnected to the ALK crossovers, with an 8ohm resistor to simulate the woofer. In that case the mid-high amp signal wouldn't pass trough an active crossover (or a line-level passive crossover) wich would avoid messing up with transparency and resolution.

 

...and they are time-aligned., posted on August 17, 2016 at 15:24:04
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
"1) a 1st order network allows for a correct phase transition between drivers. "

Sure, if both drivers are dead flat for two and a half octaves on either side of the crossover point, and they are time-aligned.

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 18, 2016 at 20:28:04
Posts: 7
Location: Sacramento
Joined: March 31, 2016
Morey James is a user and proponent of the Peavey FH-1. He frequents the Audiokarma Klipsch forum and might have some suggestions. Might be worth posting over there. Your other option is actively bi-amping, but that's another approach that has its own set of issues, including cost. Good luck.

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 19, 2016 at 08:29:35
Pooge
Audiophile

Posts: 280
Location: N. Virginia
Joined: December 14, 2004
Check the impedance rise of the driver. It might need impedance compensation for the passive network to operate correctly.

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 22, 2016 at 03:12:11
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
I just bought some active 24dB Linkwitz-Riley crossover, I will give it a try :)

 

RE: problem with first order network, posted on August 22, 2016 at 03:16:23
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
I would be very surprised if the impedance rise of the driver wasn't the same as with the LaScala bass bin... I'm about sure the only difference between the two is that the LaScala geometry , with parallel sides and 90° bends, creates an acoustic low-pass, and the FH-1 with its corner reflectors and absence of parallel sections in the horn has a much higher acoustic low-pass.

 

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