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(Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?

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Posted on January 2, 2016 at 11:14:19
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007
 Dears,
are there some people around who audited or have experience with a 604 duplex speaker as field coil version? I know that Shindo built some field coil versions by using Altec 604E. However more contemporary there is a German technician who offers a field coil version, too. I would be very glad for some suggestions, especially if someone compared both already, a conventional Altec 604 and a 604 field coil duplex.
Thanks a lot!

 

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RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 2, 2016 at 19:25:37
hottattoo
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: New York
Joined: July 30, 2011
 Hi Baja,

No experience with the 604e but there is a fellow named Atelier Rullit ( Germany ) who makes field coil drivers and offers them for sale on EBAY (U.S.A.) from time to time that seem interesting. I would consult him about your needs for starters.

In U.S.A. you could try talking to Richard Drysdale and Steve Schell ( Cogent ) since they design and manufacture field coil drivers. Hope this helps.

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 3, 2016 at 03:20:22
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007
 Thanks.

 

Field Coil experiences, posted on January 5, 2016 at 10:34:28
Kloss
 My experience with the many FC drivers that I've used is that FC isn't really superior once you factor in the FC supply and the heat a FC generates it really has no benefit and to me is just a way to get a audiophile to part with cash. Sure old FC drivers can sound wonderful. But I myself wont buy any more modern FC driver except maybe cogents. I have had the opportunity to compare identical transducers one FC other alnico and I and the other testers couldn't hear or measure any difference. I have also replaced my LM 555 FC drivers with alnico. Im not missing anything but the bright light of tungars.

 

RE: Field Coil experiences, posted on January 6, 2016 at 09:30:21
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007
 Mmh Kloss, that makes me wondering .... Unfortunately there seems to be nobody around who really audited the 604 field coils - or do they stay quiet für certain reasons? Who knows. Would be great to get some more suggestions...

 

I have heard them..., posted on January 6, 2016 at 12:02:23
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 a couple of years ago running in a Shindo-style cabinet with some crossover with huge oil caps that Wolf recommended, IIRC. The speakers were not dialed in, but driver quality was evident.

Modern 604s - probably including Wolf's - are fine drivers, but implementation is critical; crossover and cabinet are tricky. The challenge with Wolf's speakers, which have adjustable parameters that may not at any voltage match permanent magnet versions, is cabinet and crossover design - the things that make or break the drivers. The converse argument that the adjustable parameters makes cabinet matching easier does not sit well with me... and that has not been my (limited) experience.

Moreover, while I liked the system running Wolf's drivers, I prefer the sound of my system that runs the permanent magnets. But remeber the speakers were not dialed in and we are talking systems, not drivers... I can't reduce my experiences to the point I can describe Wolf's 604s in detail.

Best of fortune in your journey.

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: I have heard them..., posted on January 8, 2016 at 03:32:14
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007
 91.
Great, thanks for sharing.

 

RE: Field Coil experiences, posted on January 9, 2016 at 09:38:24
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 We're getting into the realm of hair-splitting. We compared EVM 12L to 12" Rola's FC in exactly the same setup. Strictly IMHO and those present, Rola's had a slight edge over EVM. Was it worth extra $$ and effort? Everyone has to decide that for himself. For me it was.

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 10, 2016 at 06:53:06
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 I know Wolf fairly well and I get to hear his latest creations several times a year, ETF and Munich show.

I'd say the general quality level of his stuff is very high, coming from the crazed German perfectionist that he is. He really is a maniac in this regard.

I have heard Wolf's field coil 515s in several settings. They sounded great.

That said, I am not sure that I would buy a speaker because it is field coil. Even within the subset of WE555 originals and copies there seems to be a range of qualities. Heard some myself and have trusted friends who have heard more.

A good Alnico speaker is better than a worse electrodynamic.

The closest I came to comparing directly was old 515s/288C vs. Lansing 415/287s back in the 80s. The Lansings seemed faster and more detailed and energized the room in an electrostat sort of way that the 515s and 288s didn't. But I went on to listen happily to Alnico 288s/416s for fifteen years after. My Lansings are part of the Silbatone museum collection now and I get to visit them often, since I doubt they are coming back here...

I also get to hear FC Iconics at Silbatone. Although the old Lansing crossovers are probably dubious, these are more lively than, say, an Altec Alnico equivalent setup.

And I personally have found the 604 difficult to get right. In fact, I gave up several times. And although I am still often tempted because I like the concept and historical air of 604s, I think it is far more promising to use separate woofer and HF horn so you can put a better horn in there for one thing, but also to avoid the crossover limitations of a cone that doesn't want to go high and a small horn that shouldn't be crossed so low, and to sidestep the interference between the two drivers resulting from the mechanical arrangement of the ensemble.

I had far better results with B&C 12CXBs and they were only a couple hundred a pair. Not famous classics but they worked quite well with no irksome anomalies.

I heard really great 604s one time (could have been 605s) in Jean Hiraga's room at Munich HighEnd some years ago. Super coherent, smooth and spunky room filling sound. Awesome. I intended to go back the next day and try to pry some crossover tricks out of this master of the passive Altec crossover but the room caught on fire overnight and the next day they were gone.

To me, the separate horn/woofer advantages may swamp the alnico/field coil considerations intellectually, but it all comes down to specific implementations and tuning in the end.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 12, 2016 at 11:01:39
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007



Joe,
thanks for your detailed explanations and sharing experiences.
If your somewhen around in Germany you're wellcome to audit my 612B + 604 speakers.
In any case I would like to keep the 612B enclosures - in regard to your suggestions to split bass & HF, I was thinking of a system as for instance Western Labo offered, a somehow odd Iconic derivate with WE597 (of course their own 597 clone) on top of the enclosure. However I'd like to sit close to the speakers and listen also piano very often. I guess I might have some sweet-spot problems with that kind of system in my room.


 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 12, 2016 at 11:14:36
91derlust
Audiophile

Posts: 1101
Joined: December 25, 2014
 From a lot of reading and personal research, I agree with Joe. Crossovers (and cabinet) make or break the 604 and they can be trick to get right. If it were not for the availability of the Rick Craig crossover I'd never have pursued the 604.

Also, what I may not have made clear in my previous post is that the Wolf's 604 has a lot of potential but realising that potential will be more difficult than it is for a GPA 604 (which can already be a challenge).

Cheers,
91.

"Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems to characterise our age." Albert Einstein

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 13, 2016 at 07:05:22
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004



I have heard the Western Labo 597A and it is rather harsh compared to an original or a GIP. GIP might be the best of all but they are stupidly expensive. I installed a system with 15As and adding the Labo 597A gave it a transistory electronic sound. Substituting real WE 597As totally changed the flavor.

Aa I was suggesting above, don't shop with your eyes or using the "field coil" label as ultimate decision-making factors! I have not heard all of the China copy drivers but I was under-impressed with that tweeter. And I can give you the names of a few German guys who have sold off their Chinese 555s.

GIP is also making a 415 now...no idea of the price but it will be HIGH! ;op Maybe it will be great...Haven't heard it.

A 415/597A system runs into the same issues as the 604 to some degree, small horn that doesn't want to go low and a big cone that doesn't want to go high.

Take a hint from the Iconic. You want a functional equivalent of the H808 horn so you can switch off the 15" before it gets nasty.

I think you could put a good midrange horn on top of that Altec cabinet to good effect.

I have been playing around with the 414A in such configurations. That 12" can play convincingly almost full range. I let it run with no crossover then cut in a 802 on various horns at 6-7k. Smooth and delicious.

414 is a really great LF through midrange speaker....and quite inexpensive.

I eventually switched to 728Bs for LF with 32 horns (currently) and 802s but the 414 was very satisfying, at 5% of the price of 728Bs!

If you visit the Munich HighEnd, come by the Silbatone room and have a Weissbier! We will have an extremely interesting WE horn system creation there. Wolf usually appears at the show also.

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 13, 2016 at 12:17:46
baja
Audiophile

Posts: 73
Location: west germany
Joined: January 2, 2007



Joe,
thanks again for complex answering.
And yes, I am wondering to travel to Munich this year. If I do so, I will give a sign.
As mentioned before I owned a couple of VITIAVOX Bitone. I keep the bigger 6201 for a mono setup that suits me very much for its dynamics. Might be that the Bitone is comparable with the Lansing Iconic.
So I will take a rest for negotiating.
Thanks to all for replies & suggestion.

 

RE: Field Coil experiences, posted on January 28, 2016 at 07:07:14
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 Kloss,

I know that I am late to the party on this topic, however, I wanted to agree with your findings on the comparative value of Field Coil motor drivers.

I have been living with and comparatively evaluating field coil drivers for over a decade and have found NO increased sonic value derived by incorporating an ElectroMagnet motor versus various static magnet types. It's the cone and voice coil designs that will make the biggest sonic differences.

Lance

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 28, 2016 at 17:25:35
Steve Schell
Manufacturer

Posts: 1440
Location: So. California
Joined: December 16, 2001
 Holy cow Joe, where did you get that picture? I'm going out on a limb here, but that looks like a 612 cabinet copy made by Arthur Crawford in the early 1940s. Crawford bought Iconic components from Lansing and built his own systems, sold at his store Crawford's of Beverly Hills on Rodeo Drive. I have seen one other Crawford 612 and it likewise copied the general shape well but used too small a radius roundover bit on the front cutout. The one I saw featured a fetching flocked lime green fuzzy finish.

I also have another pair of Crawford cabinets that were originally fitted with Iconic components but are now loaded with "Crawford's Dimensitone" 604Cs which feature gold paint on the driver and crossover, and bright silver paint on the high frequency horn. These cabs are square fronted with a circular distributed port all the way around the driver and feature a burnt orange flocked finish. Farm out!

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on January 28, 2016 at 17:49:50
Steve Schell
Manufacturer

Posts: 1440
Location: So. California
Joined: December 16, 2001
 Forgot to comment on the Field Coil Factor. I agree with Joe that field coil operation doesn't make it great, though it does help, if all other things can (ever?) be made equal. The original Lansing Iconic is a stunningly natural sounding speaker, extremely vivid and lively. Jim Lansing wrote an article "The Duplex Speaker" in 1944, and spoke of the progressive downsizing from Shearer Horn, huge theatre system with 375 Hz. crossover to Lansing Monitor (500 Hz.) to Iconic (800 Hz.) to Duplex (1200 Hz.). In my experience this took it one step too far, though necessary for monitoring in small rooms. The Iconic TROUNCES any 604 I have heard in pure performance, though of course it is considered a large speaker by modern standards. I have also compared the Iconic to a late 1940s Jim Lansing two way permanent magnet system... no contest.

 

Easy to change basket to 10" instead of 15" in 604 , posted on January 31, 2016 at 09:01:59
Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005
 No experience with field coil 604s, but the problem of 15"cone/horn mismatch can be addressed easily by unbolting 15" basket and replacing with altec 10" 425-8 basket with same 3" VC....See below "The ultimate Coaxial"


http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=164173&highlight=rafaro&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3D%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drafaro%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3Dhug
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=hug&n=164183&highlight=rafaro&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3D%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26author%3Drafaro%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26forum%3Dhug


Rafaro

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on February 21, 2016 at 12:47:07
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 You are correct, Steve, lime green flocked with gold flocking on the horn! I listened to these Crawford Iconics last week in the Silbatone factory in Korea in stereo for a half hour. They are awesomely natural and a touch sweet. Really a fantastic speaker.

There is also an early folded Crawford paper mache horn (that I believe was made by Racon) in the collection. Takes a WE 555 driver.

Thanks for the info on Crawford. I had no clue what "Crawford" was but they made some pimped-out Iconics, that's for sure!

------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on February 24, 2016 at 08:54:14
FlyCast
Audiophile

Posts: 65
Location: New Haven
Joined: September 5, 2015
 Hey Joe, a question while you're here- do you have any thoughts on the ALE or GOTO drivers?

 

RE: (Altec) 604 - Field Coil Version e.g. by Wolf von Langa- experiences?, posted on February 24, 2016 at 10:15:55
Joe Roberts
Manufacturer

Posts: 412
Location: Virginia
Joined: January 25, 2004
 Never heard Goto or ALE, personally, but I'd like to someday.



------------------------------

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent -- Wittgenstein

Free your mind and your ass will follow -- Parliament/Funkadelic

 

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