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DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions

209.169.192.201
Posted on October 12, 2015 at 07:26:31
Todd A.
 A few years ago, I had to get rid of my large electrostatics due to downsizing my residence, and I've gone through several sets of used speakers trying to find an acceptable replacement. None has been entirely satisfactory, so I've decided to try a set of backwave horns using Fostex drivers, such as the BK-20/Fostex FE206En combo from Madisound. I'm a fair to middlin' woodworker, FWIW, but not so hot at electronics. Low frequency response isn't much of an issue as I still have a pair of ACI Force subs to fill in the low end.

So the questions are:

1) Is there an appreciable difference in performance (other than low frequency response) between the Madisound BK-20 cabinets and the plans provided on the Fostex website linked below? The width of the BK-20 would work better in my living room. Either way, they'll get dressed up with veneer and/or hardwood skins (WAF).

2) I'd been debating using a pair of ESS/Heil air motion transformers as "supertweeters", but I really don't want to use a crossover. Is the high frequency response of the FE206En sufficient to make such augmentation unnecessary? The Horn Shoppe has such an offering (using a crossover, however), but the WAF of that setup won't cut it in this house.

3) Are there other options I'm not aware of that deserve consideration? I looked at the VH-1 from Valutronic, but I have some reservations about the driver quality offered. Resources are such I can only do this once, so I have to get it right the first time, allowing for a little tweaking to get things dialed in.

Thanks in advance,
Todd

 

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RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 12, 2015 at 07:48:38
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2529
Joined: March 8, 2002
 If you are trying to recapture that electrostatic sound, you will need something on the top. Heils, or a ribbon type will certainly help. A simple series cap should not screw up the sound much.

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 12, 2015 at 10:07:22
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 I would think BK20 to be pretty good in-room - here's mine loaded with a cheap Sammisound 8 vs a Klipsch Heresy I - the Heresy was elevated about 17" off the floor - otherwise they sat in the same spot. FE206EN is good without any helper tweeter but one might be added


same spot - same drive - BK20 with Sammi 8 plus a Selenium ST324 slot lens tweeter vs Klipsch Heresy I

Karlson Evangelist

 

Inductor?, posted on October 12, 2015 at 14:29:12
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 Since the Heil is more efficient, you may use an inductor in parallel with it, and a series resistor to match the level. You must use a series resistor for this method, at least 4R or so.

 

Thanks... (nt), posted on October 18, 2015 at 06:17:41
Todd A.

 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 18, 2015 at 06:20:21
Todd A.
 Please explain further. I knew about using a cap to cut off the low frequencies from the Heil, but I thought an inductor was used in crossovers to cut off the highs.

Incidentally, the original Heil is 96 dB efficient, but the Heil II is 92. It was my thought to go with the II for that reason.

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 18, 2015 at 06:31:15
Todd A.
 Thanks for the graph. I wonder what a graph between the BK-20 and the Fostex cabinet would look like. One article I read spoke of the Fostex as becoming "shouty" which I would not find tolerable. I was thinking about lining the entire inside with 1/4" felt for that reason.

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 18, 2015 at 07:09:55
fin1bxn@msn.com
Audiophile

Posts: 2215
Location: new jersey
Joined: November 15, 2005
 I had the FE166 in the Fostex plan cabinet. I bought some 4x8 3/4" plywood and cut to plan, bought about 8 clamps, took me about 2 weekends. I believe 100% that the fostex cabinet is better than the BK20 cabinet. YOu can have a lumber yard cut it up for you. just make sure they use the right blade for cutting as you don't want fringes at the cuts.

I have had magies, quads and many dynamic speakers. These speakers with a FI X with magnequest transformers and a Bottlehead preamp was pure magic.

I regret selling that system!

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 18, 2015 at 07:26:12
Todd A.
 Interesting. The FE166En appears to have a flatter response curve than the FE206En. Since low frequency response isn't much of a concern, I wonder if I might be better off with the smaller driver.

 

Fe168ez, posted on October 13, 2015 at 12:50:11
Kloss
 If you can stretch you budgets its a big step up from both fe206en and 166en

 

RE: Fe168ez, posted on October 13, 2015 at 13:44:48
Todd A.
 I could possibly do that. Would you recommend the cabinet shown, and do you think the high end would possibly be sufficient to make a Heil superfluous?

Thanks...

 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 13, 2015 at 23:19:43
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 The HF must be at least 6dB more efficient for this method to work.

The parallel inductor works similar to the series cap, but without capacitor quality issues (it's usually easier to get a small good quality inductor)

Since the inductor is in parallel, it presents a dead short at low frequencies (hence the need for the series resistor). The resistor is essentially in parallel with the woofer at low frequencies, and can smooth out the impedance peaks for tube amps.

 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 14, 2015 at 00:14:52
freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001
 neat way to do things
Karlson Evangelist

 

Thank you., posted on October 14, 2015 at 07:28:18
Todd A.
 It makes sense, and I get it now. Much appreciated.

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 14, 2015 at 13:48:19
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001



My friend the photo up above are the Sachiko double-back-loaded horns I have been using with various single, fullrange, drivers since 2008. I've used and removed Fostex FE206E, FE206ES-r, FE208ES-r and Lowther DX4 drivers. I had everyone of those speaker's cones treated ---{except the FE208ES-r drivers}--- with a special, proprietary, 7-step treatment that greatly improved their sonics! But I was never satisfied with the sonics until I installed Dayton PS220-8 drivers with the cone treatment applied. I highly suggest:

1) Forgetting those Madisound BK-20 cabinets.
2) Use the Dayton PS220-8 instead of Fostex FE206EN drivers.
3) Use the Frugal Horn link below, click on the word Plans below the words Spawn Family and look for Kirishimas.
4) Build the Kirishima which replaced my Sachikos and were meant to use the FE206EN, like my Sachikos were meant to use the FE206E drivers.

As I stated up above, I use Sachikos with Dayton Audio PS220-8 single, fullrange, drivers that same cone treatment applied and I'm amazed at what I hear every time I turn on my audio system! With these treated PS220-8 drivers in the Sachiko cabinets I can play something such as small ensemble playing chamber music or Guinnevere by the acoustic group Crosby, Stills & Nash at low SPLs and hear all the inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre that one usually purchases single fullrange drivers in horn cabinets to hear.

Yet on the very next cut I'm able to play some seriously loud Progressive Rock music such as Perpetual Change by Yes at 100dB+ SPLs and I can still hear that same inner-detail, delicacy ---{if there's any delicacy in the music to be heard}--- correct harmonic tone, color & timbre plus with huge, wide dynamics and lightning fast transients! The music somehow retains a sense of ease, is crystal clear and without the slightest hint of any "Lowther Shout" or sense of driver strain one often detects when single, fullrange drivers are played too loudly!

How many speakers do you know that can do powered by a 40W/ch, SET tube amp and sound great when playing both types of those musical genres? This Sachiko/PS220-8 combo sounds like you're listening to a pair of Quad ESL speakers, but Quads with a 95dB sensitivity rating & much, much better bass & treble extension! That analogy will give you just a hint of an idea of what type of sound quality I'm talking about. In all honesty this sound really almost must be heard to be believed. The best part is these speakers are easily duplicated. So anyone can either build a pair of these exact same speakers for themselves or have a pair built for them, just by clicking on the link Frugal Horn below and downloading the Kirishima plans! Of course you can use the Fostex FE206EN "if" you prefer, but I wouldn't...

I hope I've helped you with any questions you might have and please feel free to ask me any additional questions here on The Asylum or via private email if you prefer.

I'm listening to:




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Fe168ez, posted on October 14, 2015 at 13:51:37
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 I believe you'd most likely need a super-tweeter with those drivers, but let's see what John K. has to say...

I'm listening to:




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 14, 2015 at 14:01:01
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 DJK,

I know everything you're stating is 100% true, but surprisingly enough when I was looking for super-tweeters to use with my Sachiko/FE206E combo ---{which I used before switching to Sachiko/PS220-8 combo}--- I tried four different pairs of large Heils with the them and despite the wide dB sensitivity differences on paper, nothing was needed to pad down the Heils when they were crossed in somewhere between 8KHz and 10KHz to their usable high frequency extension! In the end with John K's help I ended up using the Fostex T900a as my super-tweeters!


I'm listening to:




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 14, 2015 at 14:35:34
Todd A.
 Thanks for all of the (very) helpful information, Tom!

I'm certainly not married to the idea of using a Fostex driver or any specific cabinet design yet. Your speakers are works of art, by the way! Are those veneered or solid hardwood? Those Dayton drivers certainly look like contenders, too, although getting six foot tall speakers in this living room is going to be a very tough sell...

I'd like to know more about the treatment you're using on your drivers. Incidentally, the amps used will be an old set of VAC V-100 monos (4-KT88s each) that I run in triode mode for about 30 WPCH. They're out being recapped right now.

Let me mull this over, and I'll email you directly once I get a clearer vision of what is workable in this room. Thanks for the offer!

 

RE: Fe168ez, posted on October 14, 2015 at 18:06:52
Kloss
 Could try it both ways see what you think. If you don't own Heils and still want a tweeter fountek makes good ones.

 

Cool horns...but, posted on October 15, 2015 at 01:06:11
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9178
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Based on what I have heard so far of backloaded horns I think I prefer how my Odeons (and also the Dynavox 3 series) do it with a down firing horn rather than a front firing horn.

 

RE: "the WAF of that setup won't cut it in this house", posted on October 15, 2015 at 05:25:47
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 Understood, but how were you considering implementing the Heils, if not the way the Horn Shoppe does?

I'm not referring to the crossover, but the actual placement of the Heil.

Whichever direction you go, good luck with your project!

 

RE: Fe168ez, posted on October 15, 2015 at 06:50:17
Todd A.
 I don't have the Heils as of yet. I just remember them from years back, and was impressed at the time. Memory can be questionable as we all know, so I'm thinking I'd try it without and see if I can get by without them, since they'd add significantly to the cost of the project.

I'll look at the Fountek units. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

RE: "the WAF of that setup won't cut it in this house", posted on October 15, 2015 at 06:58:31
Todd A.
 The cabinets I'm contemplating (if I don't go the double-mouth horn route) are wider than the Horn Shoppe units. I would either make the side walls higher to allow construction of an upper chamber (cutting rectangular openings on both sides and installing grills on the sides and front, leaving the back open), or make a matching module that would sit on top of the speakers and look approximately the same. The overall appearance would recall the old ESS Rock Monitor.

 

RE: Cool horns...but, posted on October 15, 2015 at 07:29:30
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Brad,

I've read what you've written about your Odeon speakers! I was especially interested in how natural you've found the Odeon's to sound accompanied with inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre --my paraphrase of what I think I remember you saying, yet amazingly enough you also found the Odeons to be free of any "horn coloration(s)!" Since reading what you've written about your speakers, the Odeon brand of horn speakers was placed very high on my list of speakers I'd go out-of-my-way to personally audition!!! I can only hope the day arrives when I'm able to do so...

I'm listening to A Trick Of The Tale by Genesis





Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 15, 2015 at 08:16:12
geezerrocket



Todd;

I don't know how complicated of project your looking for but you may want to look into the Decware DNA horn, especially if your room cannot handle the much larger horns previously mentioned.

The ones pictured are shown with the optional built in amp - which I'm not going with.

I have included the video link.







By the way; I'm building a pair now.



 

BK20 horn questions, posted on October 15, 2015 at 10:37:31
bare
Audiophile

Posts: 1879
Joined: April 14, 2009
 Decent drivers Mediocre boxes.. they deserve Better and better ones are easily found :-)
Unless 25yrs old :-) Supertweeters etc are a 'status' fittment imo.
The Fostex drivers will please.. in as much as a wee driver can, re bass and solid dymanics

 

RE: Cool horns...but, posted on October 15, 2015 at 13:02:49
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9178
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Odeons are the first horn speakers I ever heard that were free of the usual horn colorations. They are not the only ones now that I have heard that pull this trick (Acapella does and so does Lansche...all German). Interestingly, they are all spherical horn designs rather than the usual exponential horn or Tractrix designs I have seen. Of course the best I ever heard is the Living Voice Vox Olympian/Elyssian but this is mega buck range.

I have also heard some very good Western Electric speakers and replicas and they sound great but ultimately a bit too colored IMO. The resonances of the horns are just too obvious.

This backloading seems to take care of a lot of this issue as the midrange is still basically direct radiating and not in the throat of a horn, however, I do not like the highs on nearly every single driver Lowther, Fostex etc. driver and I have heard all the best except Feastrex...including Voxativ and Fertin etc. That is why I like the two-way concept with 1st order xover from Odeon...use the main driver only up to a couple KHz with gentle blend to a nice horn loaded tweeter. Tune Audio from Greece makes a speaker very similar to the Rigoletto that uses a Fostex in a backloaded horn with a Fostex horn tweeter as well. Also about 93db and an easy load and moderately sized.

Now the big hybrid Odeons (hybid because the bass is a special vented box rather than horn loaded) are true three-ways and they too are free from coloration and I think it has to do with the fact that they use a normal cone driver (Audax Aerogel) in a horn without extreme compression. That plus a really rigid solid wood horn...far better than plastic or metal, IMO.

The other thing is that the compression is not so extreme and we are talking 95db speakers rather than 100+ db speakers. Their No. 32 and 38 are among the best speakers I have heard...my La Bohemes are right with them down to about 40hz but don't do the last octave.

There were two pairs of Odeons available in Minnesota not too long ago. One was a beautiful pair of my La Bohemes and the other was a pair of the equally beautiful La Traviata (not the one reviewed in Stereophile but a true horn) that is one size smaller (8 inch vs. 10 inch main driver and a bit smaller tweeter horn). They wanted 3.5K for the Traviatas (14K new) and 6.5K for the La Bohemes (20K new). If they hadn't been overseas for me I would have probably snagged the smaller pair for my downstairs system (it is the only ones I have ever seen on the internet). I have only seen one other pair of La Bohemes so these older Odeons are very rare. The Riogletto is quite easy to get in Europe and for relatively low money.

 

RE: Fe168ez, posted on October 15, 2015 at 14:23:56
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I was impressed when I the Heils too. If I remember correctly that they crossed them over a 2K. My only concern would be, that they are not cheap in their current iteration, and they are overkill for a supertweeter (IMO, YMMV). I would still expect them to sound very good in that capacity.

Dave

 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 15, 2015 at 15:33:36
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 The Heil is a nice tweeter, too bad it won't work in his application.

The 100dB+ Beyma version would be fine (but $1200 a pair), any of those nice Fostex tweeters would be fine too.

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 15, 2015 at 16:38:31
Oface
Audiophile

Posts: 1497
Location: columbia, south carolina
Joined: May 3, 2003
 I bought the fostex FE166E's and built the bk-16 cabs from online plans.

Not too bad for how cheap the the total outlay was. I used initially a pair of 2A3 Bottlehead Paramour SET's. I also used various other types of amplifiers, from vintage SS, 6v6, EL84 PP's, to tripath/class D.

I felt I needed a little more "ommph/impact", so I saved up for some Altec 604's, in the factory 620A cabs, and never looked back, until I had to sell the system and a lot of my gear. But, I eventually scored some one owner Altec 19's for a steal of a price.

I am still going to save up for some more 604's, but this time I am going to get the newer GPA 604's and maybe try a different cab. I know what the results are for the 620, so I can always build another set of those.

Good luck in your audio adventure!

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on October 15, 2015 at 17:08:02
Todd A.
 Outlay being considered, "not too bad" isn't what I'm looking for. I've owned a couple of pretty fair systems in the past, and I miss the holographic sound stage and immediacy of a good setup, even though what I have now is pretty decent - Tyler Linbrook monitors on a Tandberg 3016A (200+ WPCH), backed up by ACI Force subs on the low end. The ACIs will stay - they were a gift from my bride - but I might take one of them to the cabin if two prove to be overkill. The total budget for the project is probably limited to no more than $2K. I would think that kind of budget on a DIY path should be able to yield fairly impressive results. But you've got to get it right.

It appears that using the Heil AMTs is impractical, but so is using a six foot tall set of speakers in this living room. I'm wondering now if that Dayton driver that Tubeguy likes could be used with the cabinets Fostex recommends for the FE208EZ. I'll have it figured out before I start to smell sawdust.

 

Hmmmm....., posted on October 15, 2015 at 21:52:47
Oface
Audiophile

Posts: 1497
Location: columbia, south carolina
Joined: May 3, 2003
 I just re-read your initial post and I see that you are down sizing, sorry I read your post a little too fast at first. The 620 cabs I was talking about are pretty large, but not height wise. They're fairly sizeable, ( apologize, I'm going from memory here), but the 620 cabs are ~36"W x 24"D x 40"H, so they might not work with your "downsizing" plans. Plus your current amps would be plenty of power to drive the 604's, but I feel they would be overkill. The sub(s), if needed, would/could be used to fill the lowest octave. I didn't find them or the bass lacking in my room. I also played a wide range of music. Only few watts are really needed...



I forgot to add in my prior post that I tried out my Fostex's in various types of cabinets. The best bang in my book was the "BiB", bigger is better TL horn. Cheap, easy, and quick project that, when paired with a sub or two, was a fun ride. The building and resulting sound from the Bib's, derided my ultimate plans to eventually build some double horn's like tubeguy's.

But the single driver road eventually landed me onto the Altec's. Now, I am curious to hear a set of some Tannoy Concentric drivers, Red's, Gold's, etc... too.

 

RE: Cool horns...but, posted on October 27, 2015 at 21:07:33
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Brad that $20K pair of Odeon La Boheme speakers are still for sale in MN for $6.5K! Amazing huh? If I had $6.5K available, I'd own those Odeon La Boheme speakers already...


I'm listening to: My Favorite Things by Joey Alexander




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Inductor?, posted on October 27, 2015 at 21:17:57
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 I have the 100dB+ Beyma version as well! I wanted to see if I preferred them to my similarly priced Fostex T900a tweeters. I used the 100dB+ Beyma TPL150H drivers ---{which I purchased NIB from Hum4god here}--- for only 30 mins and decided I still prefer the Fostex T900a in my application, but while I'm not looking to sell them, I'd let them go for $700/pr. if someone here really wanted them...

I'm listening to: My Favorite Things by Joey Alexander




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on November 3, 2015 at 12:06:22
hm
Audiophile

Posts: 210
Location: germany
Joined: February 29, 2004



Hello,
if bass is not an issue, why donīt take a satellite horn down 100 Hz
look my Horn-, Trumpet-, Schalmei sat
1 Trumpet
hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on November 3, 2015 at 12:08:33
hm
Audiophile

Posts: 210
Location: germany
Joined: February 29, 2004



horn-satellite

hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm

 

RE: DIY Fostex FE206En backwave horn questions, posted on November 3, 2015 at 12:12:10
hm
Audiophile

Posts: 210
Location: germany
Joined: February 29, 2004



Schalmei

best active 12 dB 110 Hz or fullrange up to 100 dB,
look measurements and feedback on my HP
hm-moreart DIY horn speaker
http://www.hm-moreart.de/1.htm

 

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