How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"?

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 09:09:24
FlyCast Audiophile Posts: 65 Location: New Haven Joined: September 5, 2015	Sounds like the Magico Ultimate III is since it is fully DSP corrected at each crossover.

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 10:15:41

bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006

Danley SH-50 Synergy Horns. Can reproduce even square waves, and over a range of listening seats (not just at one narrow point, like non-coincident multiway speakers).

But not made for hifi market, it's made to be a large venue speaker system. Can work great in home hifi speaker, but WAF is poor and its cosmetics aren't tweaked for phile appearance...
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

RE: Danley SH-50, posted on October 6, 2015 at 11:22:55
genungo	Although not cheap, the SH-50 might be the least expensive option available today. What is the minimum room size for a pair of these speakers?

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 11:27:26

freddyi
Audiophile

Posts: 3852
Joined: December 6, 2001

I've got some Frazier CAT40's which "sound" aligned - not seen them able to do square waves but maybe there's a reflection from nearby clutter (?)

From the Frazier White Paper - Coaxial Loudspeakers - Separating Fact from Hype. Describing the different configurations of coaxial loudspeakers:

Rear mounted HF drivers

"HF driver mounted on woofer backplate and coupled to a small horn nested in the woofer cone. This is one of the earliest layouts, and many popular loudspeakers have employed it. It has three distinct drawbacks: electronic delay must be applied to the woofer in order to achieve signal alignment, the directivities of LF (direct radiator) and HF (horn) sections are not well-matched, and the close proximity of the woofer cone behind the HF horn creates early HF reflections that usually result in very ragged HF response"

...

CLR Design

"HF driver in front of woofer cone, with HF horn centered in LF horn. This configuration can achieve signal alignment
with no electronic delay applied to either element, and the problems associated with this layout are minor and soluble, given
sufficient insight into acoustics. This is the configuration we have chosen for our CAT 40 CAT 50 product families"

Karlson Evangelist

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 13:37:54
djk Manufacturer Posts: 6135 Joined: June 17, 2000	But wouldn't it still have an off-axis problem (apparent apex)?

What does "time/phase-coherent" mean? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 16:33:31
Paul Joppa Industry Professional Posts: 7296 Location: Seattle, WA Joined: April 23, 2001	The terms "flat phase" and "minimum phase" are reasonably well defined engineering terms, and "Time Aligned" is at least a trademark term, though I not too clear on what exactly it means. "Coherent" has a technical definition that is not relevant to this situation.

RE: What does "time/phase-coherent" mean? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 18:36:20

genungo

Here's one "time-coherent" speaker designer's beliefs explained:

What is Time Coherent Sound?

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 20:27:26
hahax@verizon.net Audiophile Posts: 4310 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 22, 2006	What is the purpose of your question? Most speakers are not phase coherent(actually you can probably count how many there are). So why did you specify horn speakers? This is in addition to the question of how significant non time coherence is, especially given the current state of the speaker art.

Thanks! I calll it flat phase, then. (nt), posted on October 6, 2015 at 21:08:05
Paul Joppa Industry Professional Posts: 7296 Location: Seattle, WA Joined: April 23, 2001	nt

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 6, 2015 at 21:14:22

genungo

Proponents of time-coherent speakers are usually very adamant that they are the only way to go as far as lifelike music reproduction is concerned, although it would seem that not everyone has ears that are sensitive to time coherency. I would like to audition more time coherent speakers because, at present, my experience with them is limited.

Simultaneously, I am also interested in auditioning more efficient types of speakers, especially horn speakers. Sadly though, most "time coherent" speakers that I'm aware of are not very efficient (much less "horny").

I'm simply asking for any info that is available on the subject at hand. I certainly hope this does not bug you, for whatever reason...

So be it..., posted on October 6, 2015 at 21:16:37
genungo	.., and to each his own, I guess!

Eminence Horn Coaxials.........., posted on October 7, 2015 at 00:08:34
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	15-inch bass driver, coaxial horn compression tweeter..... If one were blindfolded, he'd think he was listening to a full-range driver. Except it does very well at the frequency extremes too. I've not heard a more seamless two-way design, horn or not. This is a big reason why I've not had any urge to try a different product.

RE: Eminence Horn Coaxials.........., posted on October 7, 2015 at 02:36:03
freddyi Audiophile Posts: 3852 Joined: December 6, 2001	what's your crossover schematic values? I've got a set just like that (if those cones are smooth / plain) plus a pair with SP15 style ribbed cones Karlson Evangelist

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 7, 2015 at 05:07:01
FlyCast Audiophile Posts: 65 Location: New Haven Joined: September 5, 2015	From what I understand these can be corrected in software like Acourate. From the sound of it Magico are using their own software.

RE: Eminence Horn Coaxials.........., posted on October 7, 2015 at 05:49:58
genungo	I like it!

Time coherent can mean several things;, posted on October 7, 2015 at 06:34:12

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8210
Joined: July 4, 2002

Time coherent can mean several things;

It can mean the drivers acoustic centers are coincident on axis time wise which would be what's needed for a normal "named type" crossover. These named crossovers (Butterworth, L&R, Bessel etc) all have 90 degrees per order phase shift above first order and so while they have flat magnitude response, they also have an "all-pass" phase response which means the lows are behind in time, for example a 4th order filter has 360 degrees of phase shift from well above to well below xover.

If one has separate hf and lf sources that are more than about � wl apart (like they normally are), then the path length from each to ones ears changes with where one is off axis and this is why most multi-way systems have a polar pattern with lobes and nulls (which indicate an interference pattern).
One can correct the time offset with DSP but if the sources are not less than � wl apart, then this correction only works in the region the measurement was taken and not unilaterally as one still has independently radiating sources. Time is only one of the three axis loudspeaker radiate in, the Z dimensions but the interactions happen in X and Y as well and this cannot be addressed with DSP

Most of the Synergy horns like the sh-50 Bill mentioned below do not have that all-pass phase response, the crossover is not visible and they measure and sound as if they had a single full range driver in the horn and do not produce an interference pattern as all the drivers are less than � wl apart where they interact. These generally preserve time well enough to reproduce the input wave shape like a square wave over a broad band (most speakers do not).

That is why they do very well in a generation loss recording test with a measurement microphone and how one can put your head into the horn mouth and still never detect there is more than a single source of sound , there is no minimum listening distance.

In large scale sound where most of them go, its also why there is no maximum listening distance, the spectral balance stays the same which is completely different than line arrays which have multiple sources for each range and sound different everywhere and is why they have replaced so many concert style sound systems in large venues.
Hope that helps
Best
Tom Danley
Danley Sound Labs

Hi Bill!
Still unpacking in Georgia ugh

Thanks for that, Tom... (nt, posted on October 7, 2015 at 07:33:51
genungo	.

Great explainaition!, posted on October 7, 2015 at 08:38:41
Crazy Dave Audiophile Posts: 14371 Location: East Coast Joined: October 4, 2001	That was very coherent and understandable. I hope I can hear your work, sometime. Dave

They come veneered too., posted on October 7, 2015 at 11:02:07
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	apparently... Always wanted to hear them in home surroundings. Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

Those..., posted on October 7, 2015 at 12:31:59

genungo

... don't look too bad at all, IMO. With front covers they might look even better.

I wonder if it is possible to make sonically transparent grills for a cavern that large?

Hi - I have a slight issue with that GMA discussion, posted on October 7, 2015 at 13:31:50

Timbo in Oz
Audiophile

Posts: 23221
Location: Canberra - in the ACT - SE Australia
Joined: January 30, 2002

The thing is that all instrument's notes have starting transients aka attacks, and decays.

Some instruments do continuous tones as well.

In identifying characteristic timbre we pay most attention to attacks, then decays, continuous tones actually come third in value to our affective systems. We can get by on attacks alone.

Some instruments don't have a continuous tone: percussion and pianos.

Most expression and nuance is in the beginning and ends of notes.

The article would be a bit more apposite if that long-established science was mentioned.

Warmest

Tim Bailey

Skeptical Measurer & Audio Scrounger

Objection noted, thanks. (nt, posted on October 7, 2015 at 14:35:53
genungo	.

Avantgarde Zero 1 Pro., posted on October 7, 2015 at 14:47:47
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	Avantgarde have made a very attractive foray into this zone, with a consumer product that certainly has my attention (even if I'm lacking in the necessary resources to play with it). Reasonably high WAF, I think. Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 7, 2015 at 15:25:38
djk Manufacturer Posts: 6135 Joined: June 17, 2000	I know of no way to fix apparent-apex problems electronically.

Those are nice, modern, etc..., posted on October 8, 2015 at 07:31:03
genungo	I still like the original Zeros even though they look like turbines.

You mean the Solos?, posted on October 8, 2015 at 10:49:43
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	They still make those. Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 8, 2015 at 13:11:54

genungo

Sorry, I meant to say "Solo". The Avantgarde website says that production of the Solo ended in 2012.

Old Solo

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 8, 2015 at 18:20:50

jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000

Sure. I see you are right. I think there are still some in the supply chain, though I imagine not that many left. I liked it, though it was not really enough of an advance on the single-driver paradigm for me to elect to take it home (was using AERs, Fosters and Fertins, at the time in various enclosures and baffles).

Personally, I think the Zero is of more interest. My only gripe is that the DACs are bitstream. I would have preferred to see R-2R DACs in there, or in a future model. Otherwise it seems like an audiophile no-brainer, for those wishing to step off the treadmill for a bit.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

Are you sure?, posted on October 12, 2015 at 01:46:30

morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005

Just because it is coaxial does not automatically guarantee that it is time coherent. If the crossover is anything other than 1st order (or no xover) then it will have a group delay that means it will not be in time together even if the phase is right.

The offset of the drivers also matters. This is why 1st order speakers that have drivers separated in space vertically need to be offset somehow (usually tilted back) so that the acoustic centers are aligned, more or less, at the recommended listening distance.

Tannoys, for example, are never time coherent, despite being one of the pioneers in the coaxial speaker design.

My Odeon horns are time coherent because they have a 1st order filter and the horn is set back in space to time align the drivers.

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 12, 2015 at 01:48:34
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9181 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	The Zero 1 is far superior to the Solos...I have heard at length both. However, neither is as good as a passive Avantgarde with really good tube amps.

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 17, 2015 at 17:58:22
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	That's good to know (Zeros v Solos). I guess the Zeros are more affordable and easier to accommodate than their more expensive siblings - to be expected. Question is, are they good enough? Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 17, 2015 at 19:45:18

genungo

Morricab has heard both speakers, I have heard only the older ones. If the new ones are much better than the older ones are, I'd say they must be awfully nice. The Solos are the best "small" speaker I've ever heard but, of course, Morricab has heard many more components and speakers than I ever will.

You own some very nice speakers. I too would be interested in finding out if the Zeros can beat a few of the better ones residing in your stable.

Thanks. Me too., posted on October 17, 2015 at 22:15:29
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	I'm keen to try some in the new year, or before if I can. The only thing that is a barrier to me (unfairly perhaps) is the D/S DAC. But is BB, so it may be better than I've heard. Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

RE: Onboard DAC, posted on October 13, 2015 at 08:12:03
genungo	Too bad, because it doesn't look like there is an easy way to bypass or replace the Zero's onboard DAC. Maybe Avantgarde will address this potential drawback in future Zero models. Meanwhile, if you get a chance to audition a pair of Solos don't pass up that opportunity...

Solo YOLO., posted on October 13, 2015 at 13:34:57

jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000

I did get a chance to hear them, shortly after they first came out in the UK. That was in exhibition surroundings, however, so make of that what you will. I was struck by how much more enjoyable their presentation was (to me) over the larger Avantgarde arrays, and at the time, I put this down to their coincident driver arrangement.

My experience with single-driver designs has probably shaped my expectations in this space, but there seems to be an undeniable gain to be had - to my ears - by considering driver integration as part of the playback system. Obviously not the only consideration, but a crucial one for me, in terms of value as one spends more.

Hopefully, the modular nature of the Zero will allow for some development, or perhaps a Mark 2 or additional offering in this line. There are R-2R DACs being produced now (like Metrum's Transient DAC, for example, or that offered by Soekris) that might suit an implementation here. Or perhaps the BB PCM4104 integration is too integral to the design to be changed. Don't know.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 15, 2015 at 00:31:37

morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9181
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005

For the friend who is thinking convenience as much as sound they are definitely good enough...too good probably. However, for myself I did not find the combination of SS with horns to be convincing enough although the sound was quite impactful and well balanced. Tonally I found it to be less satisfactory. It is an altogether more transparent package than the Solos and more coherent despite the separation of drivers (the DSP time alignment does it's job there).

As for the bigger Avants, well the best setups I have heard were with the Duo model in various forms with tubes. All demos i have heard with Avants own SS amps were far less satisfying. In Munich this year the setup of Duo Omegas with Audiopax amps and Lampizator "Big 7" DAC was one of the best sounds at the show and told what Avantgardes are REALLY able to do.

The guy who had the solos only used them for movies and background music. His main system was with the Lansche Goa (predecessor to their Cubus speaker) biamped with two stereo KR Audio Kronzillas. THAT was a great sounding system.

RE: You mean the Solos?, posted on October 15, 2015 at 00:34:25
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9181 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	The main letdown in both is the solid state amplification, although the Solos also seemed to be somewhat less transparent and more colored...who knows how much amplification plays a part there? The Zeros are quite uncolored and very transparent and coherent BUT tonality is not ideal and a bit on the dry side.

USB input limited to 16 bit/48kHz !, posted on October 15, 2015 at 10:20:41

Jon L
Audiophile

Posts: 6065
Joined: April 6, 2000

I was starting to get excited when I read:

"All of the Zero 1's inputs are compatible with 24-bit/192kHz files, except for the USB input, which is limited to 48/16."

In this day and age, that is a huge mistake by Avantgarde IMO. A potential Zero customer would be someone who is willing to pay $$ for the convenience of one-box solution, getting rid of external DAC's, amplifiers, cables, etc.

He reaches to connect his laptop/music server to the Zero just to find the USB input hobbled! Now he has to endure adding extra component and cables in the path, not to mention the extra expense of buying excellent USB/spdif converter.

I will await, hoping Mk II version fixes this problem..

RE: Are you sure?, posted on October 16, 2015 at 03:31:03
SMathews Audiophile Posts: 43 Location: Connecticut Joined: November 11, 2002	I am presuming you are talking about the La Boheme. Would you know what the crossover freq is for your Odeon? Also what is the center to center distance between the 10 inch driver and waveguide. SMathews

More modularity needed., posted on October 16, 2015 at 12:22:04

jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000

Wouldn't it be great to have a menu of components to choose from, so you could build your own Zero 1? It would be a fine thing to be able to select things such as the DAC, the amplification type, the sample rates/filters you wanted - or even have a model with multiple choices built in.

The Zero 1 is such a good idea, built well and nearly pressing all the right audiophile buttons...
Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 20, 2015 at 10:26:58
mdg Audiophile Posts: 51 Location: Gilze-Rijen (Holland) Joined: November 27, 2004	HI, If the multiple loudspeaker drivers aren`t measured/tuned with Time Delay Spectometry (TEF) the change is great that the system isn`t optimally aligned. gr. Marcel

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 21, 2015 at 09:25:06

Serge_S
Audiophile

Posts: 112
Location: NYS
Joined: March 13, 2012

Presonus Sceptre:

https://www.presonus.com/products/Sceptre

Those look interesting (nt, posted on October 21, 2015 at 12:16:45
genungo	.

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 21, 2015 at 22:41:20
bwaslo Manufacturer Posts: 245 Location: Portland, OR USA Joined: September 10, 2006	No mention in their literature about it being linear phase, just coaxial, not the same... did their marketing dept just get modest and not mention it? _ Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/ SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 22, 2015 at 09:31:38
Serge_S Audiophile Posts: 112 Location: NYS Joined: March 13, 2012	Didn't they say the design is by Dave Gunness and uses similar tech as Fulcrum Acoustic's speakers. No affiliation.

And, does it matter?, posted on October 22, 2015 at 11:43:12
Inmate51	Read relevant papers at AES.org and acousticalsociety.org. HTH :)

RE: And, does it matter?, posted on October 22, 2015 at 13:32:01

genungo

"It" does seem to matter to some people (or, they say they can hear the difference). I know that Floyd Toole decided that time/phase coherence was not a major issue, but right now I'm sort of on the fence regarding the subject.

Having noticed sonic similarities shared by a couple of different coherent speaker designs I've heard, I'm sorta curious. The ones I've heard so far had a pleasant sounding but slightly peculiar "laid back" presentation. The reason for this, according to some, is that in a time/phase coherent design the high frequencies do not arrive at the ear ahead of the midrange frequencies and therefore, the highs do not seem to stand "forward" or apart from the rest of the wave launch - as they might do with non-coherent speakers.

All I know is that the sound seemed slightly disconcerting at first. Maybe my ears needed a bit more time to get used to the sound of time/phase coherence? Dunno...

If possible, I'd like to learn about and listen to a few more of these speakers before making up my own mind about the importance of "time/phase coherence".

RE: And, does it matter?, posted on October 23, 2015 at 07:10:36

Inmate51

I'm not saying it matters or doesn't matter, or to what "degree" an offset must be in order to be clearly heard, or in what frequency ranges. All I'm saying is that there is some good science which suggests that we're not as sensitive to time alignment as some people think.

When a person goes into a listening session with the already-implanted mental suggestion that it does matter, then potentially any deficiency in the sound can/will be ascribed to lack of time alignment. This "pre-supposing" a cause is a common problem with subjective analysis in many fields, not just audio. It's the way we are, and only by being conscious of this trait and making an effort to evaluate other parameters can we hope to achieve some degree of objective analysis. That is what well-designed studies are designed to do.

:)

RE: "Well-designed studies", posted on October 23, 2015 at 10:11:25

genungo

Problem is, people will often disagree on whatever it is that a "well-designed study" actually is.

For example, Floyd Toole conducted his listening tests and decided that most people could not reliably discern "time-coherent" speaker designs from those that were not time-coherent and that there were other, more important, performance parameters that the speaker designer should focus upon.

OK, so far?

Well, certain proponents of time/phase-coherency would then make the claim that Toole's listening tests were probably flawed, in that Toole only employed college-aged pedestrians in his listening tests (no "experienced listeners" and/or professional musicians) who were probably not very good at discerning musically realistic sound from musically unrealistic sound.

Huh? Ha!

Thanks, but I think I'll try to do my own listening from now on, as much as possible. I don't think I want the published results of "scientific tests" and/or other people's opinions to skew my objectivity.

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 25, 2015 at 16:31:25

claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007

My SH-50's are painted white a look pretty darn good. They are the best of the best for stereo and HT. I have 3 for RCL in 7.1, but use them in 2.1 for music with Onkyo 818. Ear bleed is the limit with 80 watts of power at 100 db/watt.

Electrostatic micro detail with none of the problems and full horn dynamics. What could be better?

The only other speaker I would even consider owning, besides another Danley synergy horn might be a 2-way Klipsch Jubilee/K402 with TAD drivers or my own Quarter Pie bass horn with that top end.

But I would never give up the SH-50's. They are that good!

I'm rediscovering all my music with the SH-50's. Still amazed after 4 months of ownership.

RE: "Well-designed studies", posted on October 26, 2015 at 09:27:13

Inmate51

It depends upon the purpose and goal of the study. A person can argue that it didn't cover this-or-that, but if their objection wasn't part of the point of the study, it usually doesn't matter. What matters is: Did the abstract of the paper or study coincide with what the researchers did in the study?

Side issues always abound, but they may not be relevant to the point of the study, or they may suggest another study to legitimately explore other point(s).

The mere fact that someone says a study is flawed, and therefore not legitimate, doesn't mean it's so. This sort of thing often happens among competing "schools of thought". And then, of course, there's the qualifications and experience of the objector.

This is just one reason why "audiophiles" need to open a book or join the Audio Engineering Society (aes.org), and not just read magazines. A student membership is relatively cheap - something like $80 a year.

RE: How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"? , posted on October 27, 2015 at 10:27:36

JoshK
Audiophile

Posts: 820
Location: NJ/NYC
Joined: August 3, 2001

I haven't heard the SH-50s, but I own 3 of the SM-60Fs in my home theater. You really owe it to yourself to hear some of them. I have heard Gedde's Summas and Avantgarde Duos. I'd take the Danleys or the Summas anyday even though the Duos are like 3x as much as the prior two. I really want to hear the SH-50s.

----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster

RE: Are you sure?, posted on November 3, 2015 at 09:14:46
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9181 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	Yes, the La Boheme. The xover freq is around 2Khz, maybe 1800 but not lower I don't think. However, I don't know the distance from the center of the woofer to the waveguide. Probably too far though to have a smooth blend at all angles as I do hear some change with pink noise between elevations at the listening position.

High Efficiency Speaker Asylum

How many horn speakers are truly "time/phase-coherent"?

184.167.107.205