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Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?

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Posted on February 19, 2015 at 06:28:39
Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005
 Being raised in the world of Audiophile stuff, you know electrostats ribbons speakers, quality tube amps for me it was an eye and ear opening experience to first hear higher efficiency quality drivers in the form of an Altec VOT system. My first thought was "Wow electrostat quality with Balls". Although the mechanical ringing of the large stock metal 511/811 horns was obvious and the Altec compression drivers also introduced some overload distortions I liked the overall powerful hi transient effect. Since then for me it has been a long Journey into efficient horn designs And since the main criticism of horns is size with time I learned to compact the designs. The other main criticisms a somewhat peaky freq response and limited pinpoint imaging I never really found objectionable although for many it is. I guess its just a matter of taste and one´s own perception of accuracy.

Rafaro

 

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There are good and bad examples of every approach, posted on February 19, 2015 at 06:36:19
eso
Manufacturer

Posts: 7843
Location: Long Beach, CA, USA
Joined: March 15, 2001
 I've been a fan of horns for a long time, but there are plenty of godawful horn systems out there. The best are transcendent, while the worst are unlistenable.

Not unlike any other niche in audio.

eso
They were a carnival of American decay on parade, and they had no idea of the atrocity they had inflicted upon themselves." Henry Chinaski

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:00:17
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8211
Joined: July 4, 2002
 No, it only means it takes less power to make X SPL.

Horns are potentially the most efficient but also the most difficult to make into a system. The larger the sources of sound are relative to the wavelength where they combine (like at crossover), the greater the interference pattern they create.
Also, since the horns raw response reflects the efficiency and directivty of the driver / horn, it is rarely flat and so the crossovers job is also to make "flat response" out of a mounded raw response.

On the other hand, the directivty of horns and large panel speakers makes the "near field" zone larger than shoebox speakers and in that near field, the direct sound from the speaker is significantly louder than the reflected sounds which preserves the stereo image etc.

One can enjoy the nearfield with little speakers as well but they have to be positioned more like the monitors on recording consoles, about arms length and then any wall reflection is not only far behind in time but low in level.

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on February 19, 2015 at 08:26:33
George S. Roland
Audiophile

Posts: 1470
Location: N W Pennsylvania
Joined: March 20, 2004
 It's all in 1.) The implementation and 2.) Your listening preferences.

No type of speaker known is "always the best".

I have owned several panel speakers (Magnepans and Quads), several horn-loaded speakers (K-Horns, Klipsch Cornwalls and Altec Model 19s), and any number of direct radiators (the most recent of which were PSB Stratus Golds, Thiel CS 3.6s and B&W Matrix 801 Series II). They all sounded different and had various strengths and weaknesses. In my experience, horns have colorations. In reviewing Avantgarde's very expensive horn systems you find statements to the effect that they have fewer horn colorations than older implementations, which leads me to suspect they still have some of that characteristic horn sound.

Find something that sounds good to you and enjoy your music!

George

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on February 24, 2015 at 13:39:36
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 I love horns, I use horns, but for me they have a "magnifying glass" effect wich can be very pleasing, but not always realistic. That said, I don't believe in "realistic", I'd rather have a reproduction of music that excites my senses and is pleasurable.

The other advantage of horns is to allow the use of magical amplifiers that couldn't be used with any other speakers.

 

Realism and Horses for Courses, posted on February 25, 2015 at 10:30:29
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 I was recently blown away by a system that was clearly not 100% tonally accurate, but the dynamics were fast, and being able to tell the difference between tones were really good. The instruments seemed more realistic than I have ever heard, even if the tonality wasn't perfect.

It wasn't a horn based system, but it did teach me a lesson about what makes a realistic presentation. (Used Crimson Electronics)
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on March 3, 2015 at 06:49:41
horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014
 Dogmatic, black and white statements are rarely true. You need your own personal experience, listening to a wide range of high efficiency systems, to come to your own conclusion. My travels have led me to high efficiency, but I have heard far more high efficiency systems that I strongly dislike than I like. But I have also heard far more non-high-efficiency systems that that I dislike than like. Neither type of system has an edge on lousy sound, it seems.

You can have high efficiency without good dynamics. But the most dynamic systems I have heard do happen to have high efficiency speakers.

There are just no rules. I personally like low distortion, wideband, musically dynamic, high efficiency speakers. But none of those characteristics guarantee any of the other characteristics.

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on March 4, 2015 at 14:20:47
James Romeyn
Dealer

Posts: 150
Location: Cache Valley, UT
Joined: November 24, 2000
 The amp and speaker must be considered together as a package. The tighter is one's budget the more critical is it to insure the speaker is compatible with tube amp making only 10-15W. Such amp has the lowest cost for state of the art quality. IOW, ever step up in required amp power causes exponential cost increase for similar performance.

More data is required to judge minimum amplifier power than just input sensitivity, which does not tell the whole story. Also required is impedance graph and phase angle graph. Ideal is a speaker with flat impedance above the bass range, minimum impedance >6 Ohm, and minimum phase angle (a rare combination of qualities).

Suppose you divide speakers into two groups: Group A is happy with 10-15W tube input power (or less) and Group B requires >10-15W tube input power. It seems that Group A more commonly possess a certain dynamic quality associated with live music than does Group B.

There are exceptions to the above rule. But IMO there is no exception to the following rule: If we consider amp + speaker cost together, to maintain similar pleasure and overall performance, amp + speaker Group B has higher minimum cost vs. amp + speaker Group A.

Low and mid sensitivity speakers became popular with the advent of SS amplifiers, which cost less to buy and maintain vs. tube amps with similar power. It's critical to note that because tube amp clipping is more pleasurable and tolerable vs. SS, 1 tube watt is similar to 2 SS watts. Also, depending on the amp and speaker, tube amps can sound "bigger" in the bass and sometimes (OTL) actually cut off deeper than SS due to power increasing with increasing load impedance.

 

RE: Does Hi Efficiency really always mean a more accurate listening experience?, posted on March 6, 2015 at 19:01:45
coli
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