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Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?

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Posted on January 29, 2015 at 16:34:37
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 Are single driver speakers limited to small groups/ensembles at moderate sound levels?

I've read glowing reports and reviews of single driver speakers for playing small combo jazz, chamber music, etc. Any comments on the suitability of single driver speakers that can handle gracefully and play musically Romantic classical symphonies at the sound level they require/demand? Opera? Choral works?

Many thanks as always...

 

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RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 18:27:43
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5574
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 Your system listing says you're running just such a speaker now?

If so the $950 upgrade looks very interesting.

Have fun

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:02:06
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 Yes, I have and mostly enjoy Ed's Horns, BUT there are times during crescendos, choruses, etc. that the Horns seem to be overwhelmed.

I try to visualize 100+ musicians making all that sound trying squeeze out of the 3"driver & smallish rear-firing horn...

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:10:26
Cpwill
Audiophile

Posts: 1096
Location: DC
Joined: December 22, 2003
Contributor
  Since: October 24, 2008
 My take: I have DIY Folded TQWT w/ Fertin 8" ceramic drivers powered by 1.5W VT-25 SET's. I love almost all musical genre. Favorites are jazz and alt/Americana whatever the critics call it, so yes small scale. however, as an architect who has been fortunate enough to work on several major concert hall projects, I have developed a love of classical as well, and I understand what live classical sounds like and how the halls acoustics contribute to that sound. Do my single drivers accurately reproduce the feeling of a live symphonic performance? HELL NO! But would a 200W SS amp playing through some 200 pound 8 driver behemoth do so? I doubt it. Certainly not in my relatively small listening/living room. What my humble single divers do with large scale symphonic works is to produce accurate instrument timbres with believable pace and wonderful coherence and a simple sense of musicality. Dynamic range is acceptable to me if played at the appropriate volumes. Detail, especially for higher frequency instruments seems natural as opposed to exaggerated or etched. Instrument separation, pure scale and impact or slam fall far short of a live performance. Pick your poison. What's important to you.
"Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra.

Cpwill

 

Really good answer!! nt, posted on January 29, 2015 at 19:38:18
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 nt

 

RE: Integrated Amp for bedroom System, posted on January 30, 2015 at 01:53:59
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 2996
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 exactly. Sold mine. Look at Wayne Parnhams' 4 Pi 2 way

 

Sort of a compromise, posted on January 30, 2015 at 11:35:02
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 Mahler, Bruckner and Sibelius are my favorites. I have a single drive speaker + cross-over to a ribbon tweeter, which smooths out and extends the ragged roll-off of the single driver treble. I hear what you hear. The speaker was made by Tonian Labs.

 

^^ What he said, posted on January 30, 2015 at 12:53:44
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 You can't have absolutely everything, no matter how much money you throw at things.

If you want high SPL and decent bass, you'll need a big cone, and you'll end up with treble issues. Frankly, this seems acceptable to me, as there are great tweeters for $500-1000/pair that can keep up with a FR driver.

 

Horn Shoppe Horns, posted on January 30, 2015 at 13:28:44
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 Since you already own them (thanks for raising the awareness level, Craiger56) you must have an idea of the answer to your question, at least in regards to The Horns.

If you wouldn't mind clarifying, is it image size, room filling ability, or sheer volume (in dB) you feel is lacking? I'm asking, because I also own The Horns, listen primarily to Blues and Rock, sometimes at volumes louder than would be considered safe. They don't distort or break up at these volumes, and they fill the room to my satisfaction. With their 4" (not 3" as you stated) driver, I never would have believed it if I hadn't heard it. Sure, I've heard speakers which will play louder (Altec 604, A5, etc.), and sound "bigger" but obviously they're not single driver, or in my price range.

I noticed that you have the second generation Horns. I upgraded my drivers to the Fostex FE126En, which was a nice improvement. Additionally, you also use the same preamp and amp I use. My Truth will not drive the First Watt F1J to full volume, (but it will get full output out of my tube amps). Sometimes on those late nights when I want to listen at "eleven", the Truth / F1J doesn't quite make it. Ed suggested hooking up my CD player directly to the F1J, and the test proved that The Truth is attenuating the signal slightly. I need to send it back for an update, and in the meantime I'm using a tube preamp which drives the 10 watt F1J to full output.

You asked, "Are single driver speakers limited to small groups/ensembles at moderate sound levels?". Not in my experience. I'd certainly say that about the Quad ESL 57s I owned, but not the Horn Shoppe Horns.

Every speaker is a compromise. I hope you find what you're looking for, and continue to enjoy your music. Good luck!




 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns, posted on January 30, 2015 at 14:07:47
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 1973shovel,

Many thanks for the informative reply.

Our "problem" is seeming breakup at crescendos or loud passages involving violins, trumpets, most woodwinds, female voices (both solos and chorus) and male chorus. The strings, brass and 'winds are piercing as in having a wire inserted in one ear and pulled out the other. Female voices and male choruses have a "gargle" quality.

Mid-range to ~50Hz are superb, about the best we've heard at this price level. Bass drums have both whack and boom. Tympani likewise. Organ notes can be felt. Celli & basses have a rich bloom about them & I can hear the basses dig really deep. Soundstage, making allowances for my room, is impressive and stable, as is imaging.

The Horns have the Fostex FE126En upgrade. We have no problem driving the Horns to really loud levels. The Truth replaced an Eastern Electric Mini Max preamp. We have the same issues, pluses and minuses using it. We did find that the rectifier tube made a hug difference in soundstage and imaging. We use a Tung Sol 6x4 very happily...

I think our next step will probably be the Heils, when we get the $$$...

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on January 30, 2015 at 15:34:43
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 I know enough physics and have been to enough really good venues (the best of which were built before modern acoustic science and share the general design of a shoe box...) to know/realize that I'll not reproduce that sound, timbre, volume, etc. of a live performance.

I've also heard really good (mostly really expensive...) systems that came close enough. That's what I'm hoping for.

Whole milk (4%) is too rich; no-fat (1%) is unacceptable; low-fat (2%) will do nicely...

 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns (long), posted on January 31, 2015 at 04:19:01
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 "The strings, brass and 'winds are piercing as in having a wire inserted in one ear and pulled out the other. Female voices and male choruses have a "gargle" quality."

Wire through the ear. Ouch! I don't perceive any of those displeasures, even at reasonably high volume. Of course, as a Classical music aficionado, you could argue that all Rock music sounds like wire inserted in the ears, but that's another topic for another time.

You don't mention if you've tried other amps. Have you eliminated a clipping F1 (was yours updated to the J?) as the cause of the piercing and gargling? If not, I'd try a more powerful amp, to see if the breaking up continues at high volumes.

I'm not trying to sound like a Horn Shoppe fan-boy, who believes that it couldn't possibly be the Horns causing your issues. They aren't perfect. But, as you said, at their price level (and often above) they don't often disappoint me.

Back to the First Watt F1 for a moment. Do you use any type of damping material in the Horn's throat? When I first visited the Schilling compound to demo the Horns, Ed hooked up about five different amps to let me hear how they sounded with each one. One of them was his F1. He had two rolled up towels, and stuffed one up each little bottom of the Horns, but only when the F1 was used.

I fell in love with the Horns and and ordered a pair during that visit. I also went on a quest to find a used F1 for sale, and eventually bought #26 of 101 F1 models Pass built. When the First Watt is in the system I have to stuff the Horn throat too, mostly to control the bottom. I use Acousta-Stuf polyfill from Parts Express. I've forgotten to remove it when I switch to one of my tube amps, and think there's something wrong with the amp, until I remember the Horn stuffing. I know it's not the bottom you're concerned with, but mention all that just as an FYI if you haven't tried it.

The Heils have been a temptation for me as well, but I've hesitated for a couple of reasons. One is the cost, as you mentioned. Second is that it turns the Horns into a two-way, which creates a problem using my F1J. I'm told there's a work-around that Nelson Pass developed in crossover design, but it's another complication. The third reason was Ed. Have you read about the DIY subwoofer he came up with? If not, see the link below. I already have one of Ed's "Cube" subs, but don't use it when running the F1J amp. Ed cuts his own financial throat by telling everyone not to buy his Cube, because the DIY sub is better. I mentioned to Ed that I was considering a pair of Heils, which he would make a profit on, and he told me to build the Bucket sub instead. More bang for the buck, was his assessment. That's why I like the guy. He's too honest for his own good.

I've done some rambling here, but hopefully it will give you a few things to try, or at least think about. Again, good luck, and if you do make some changes, even if it's dumping The Horns for a speaker you like better, please post your results.






 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns (long), posted on January 31, 2015 at 08:26:12
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 1973shovel,

>Amps tried: ACA, Will Vincent Dynaco ST-70 (triode), "vintage" B&K ST140. At 70 watts/side the B&K is the most "powerful". All had the same effect.

>I bought the F1 used (Terry Cain, RIP) after Mr. Pass offered upgrades. It's stock MOSFET...

>Polyfill up the rear of the Horns.

Two other suspects I've not yet addressed:
> Very few of our CDs are new. Many are from the '90s and new ones are usually reissues of highly reviewed, highly regarded, familiar works.
> The average age of our ears is 74...

Ed, not being a classical fan but, indeed, a class guy said to send him a few examples of my problem. We'll see...

Listened last night to various piano trios. Some wine. Some weed. Low lights. Gorgeous sounds...

 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns, posted on January 31, 2015 at 08:46:37
bean
 While I listen to a lot of different genres, one of my top priorities in a speaker is that it is able to handle "large" works (orchestra, big band, opera, etc) without "breaking up". Lots of otherwise fine sounding speakers turn ever-so-briefly into mush on transients. In the earlyish days of digital, I used a Telarc recording of Mahler 1 (St Louis/Slatkin) to audition speakers; quick dynamics that a lot of speakers didn't do well.

But, everybody listens differently; what makes me grind my teeth doesn't bother (most?) others.

I have heard single drivers that can do it, but they're typically too expensive for me or too difficult for my DIY woodworking non-skills. I ended up with 2-way, then 3-way DIY JBL based with Edgar tractrix salad bowl horns. The xovers are my compromise. No individual genre sounds "stunning", but every genre sounds very good or better. And instrument tonality is right (my #1 priority).

The best sounding full rangers I have heard were bigger and had a "helper" tweeter on top. Often just crossed over with a simple cap in the region where the full range rolls off. To me, an xover way up there isn't nearly as noticed.

Good luck!

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on January 31, 2015 at 12:22:10
nl
Audiophile

Posts: 730
Joined: March 18, 2002
 First, there are "single driver" speakers and "wideband" speakers, where there may be two or three drivers but one driver covers the whole midrange.

I would say there are no single-driver speakers that would give you what you want. A few Lowther designs like the giant Pnoe horns or other big backload designs might get close, but even so I bet the upper midrange and treble would start to break up pretty badly at high levels.

A "wideband" cone speaker might get closer, but I think it would still be struggling badly.

I say this having fooled around with various single-driver and wideband approaches for many years.

What you want is horns. Big, big horns, using large-format compression drivers in the 500hz-up range. You could pair with 15" cones below, but some kind of horn in the 100hz-500hz range such as the classic Altec A5 or A2 designs is really what you want for big orchestral with "lifelike" scale and majesty. Other similar options are Avantgarde Trio, Danley SH50, WE 15A, RCA theater systems, Tannoy Westminster, etc.

Also, you want plenty of power. I would say that you should aim for 114db/1 meter peak output at a minimum. That means 10 watts at 104db or 40 watts at 98db.

Even in my small room, I measured 76db at the listening position at -30db pink noise level, with 0db being both the signal max and also the amplifier max power (1.5W in this case). These were on 110db horns. It implies a peak power of 106db, which is not really so high at all, and subjectively was not that loud (for example, 85 db average level with +20db peaks, common in large-scale classical).

You will always run into people who swear up and down that their 5" single-driver speaker like a Jordan JX92 creates huge scale in a large room. They are deluding themselves.

 

RE: +10, posted on January 31, 2015 at 13:17:51
amioutaline?

JBL 2446/4370A and 2241 with a pair of 6s and JBL Slot Tweeter. Now that's full range.

I hate Bruckner!

 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns (long), posted on January 31, 2015 at 15:12:19
Ed Schilling
Manufacturer

Posts: 145
Location: South Carolina
Joined: September 18, 2002
 Thanks guys, for the comments! Two things..... the series xover used with the Horn/Heils will work with any amp including the F1 or F1J.

The FFRS Mark 4:20i (The Bucket Sub)is a gift to the DIY crowd. Bruce Rozenblit measured it and included it on his DIY speaker page. You can find the page and read it if you wish, it's not hard to find. It is not a joke any more than a massive heart attack is. That said, if you do not build it EXACTLY as described and use it without a proper amp please do not whine like a school girl that you wasted a hundred bucks and a couple hours.

Built properly it is mind bending. Why anyone would not follow the insanely simple directions EXACTLY is a mystery to me but alas (sigh) it has been done. Use a Crown XLS series amp. Other big plate amps will work but the Crowns are perfect and not really expensive, all things considered.
Ed

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on February 2, 2015 at 10:07:36
Topper
Audiophile

Posts: 957
Location: New England
Joined: April 19, 2001
 There can be a confusion or blurring of merely "loud" with "proper scale". A single driver might get loud enough to let you think you're sort of listening to an orchestra if you squint. A 15 and a horn might get you even closer. However, as soon as you add "at the sound level they require/demand" you're in different territory. Much as the concept of umami is understood to be an essential part of taste, proper convincing scale, though an elusive thing to properly describe, is what makes Mahler work and you won't ever get there without being able to move some air. For that matter you won't come close to a blues band or a jazz trio either. It may sound pleasant and recall what they sound like, but realistic scale? Nope. And yes, I own single driver speaks. And a rig that will come close to doing Mahler.

W

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on February 2, 2015 at 11:08:41
hapinoregon
Audiophile

Posts: 118
Location: SW Oregon
Joined: June 21, 2007
 I know NOT to expect a recreation of a live performance (from a world class venue...) of a 100+ player symphony orchestra from my system.

Neither do I expect the harshness I am getting.

With smaller groups the system is punching way above its weight. On live performances of some string trios/quartets I can actually hear player sounds like a chair or a player moving.

But, yes, it all does come down to the ability to move large volumes of air accurately and musically...

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on February 3, 2015 at 12:44:30
green heron
Audiophile

Posts: 98
Location: Chicago
Joined: February 19, 2010
 In my view, it all depends on your depth of listening experience on different systems. A lot of people move from a mass-market speaker system to a single-driver and are happy with the results for a while. Over time, these people find the downside of the single-driver...especially in the lower frequencies (especially mid-bass). I have four systems at the moment including back-loaded horns, vintage horns, large front-loaded horns, and co-axial horns. Each has pros and cons, some more than others. But, if you're trying to re-create Bruckner or Mahler (or any dynamic symphonic music) on single-driver (so-called "full range"), don't listen to the same music on a very large system or you'll be disappointed with just how "full range" and dynamic the single driver *really* is.

 

RE: +10, posted on February 4, 2015 at 12:59:56
Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 890
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
  Since: April 1, 2010
 Georgeous speakers, amioutaline? (A). I bet they really thrill playing Mahler. I agree with you about Bruckner.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on February 7, 2015 at 14:03:24
nl
Audiophile

Posts: 730
Joined: March 18, 2002
 The joke is, for every hundred people yammering here at Audioasylum's high-efficiency forum, there is maybe one person why buys a pair of JBL 2440s for perhaps $700, and a pair of JBL 2360A horns, which often can be found for about $120 each, a pair of JBL D130 15" woofers for about $500, and a pair of horn supertweeters for perhaps $300, and actually builds themselves a really great horn system for less than what a lot of dingdongs spend on speaker wire.

I dare anyone here to actually build themselves a big fat horn system. It's a lot of fun actually.

 

Well said and spot on... I have done just that... but some people must make compromises...and there are many-n, posted on February 7, 2015 at 17:05:26
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

JBL 2445/2360... and KHorn bass bins...next...2 way active crossover-nT, posted on February 7, 2015 at 17:08:54
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7551
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 !
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: Single Driver Speakers for Mahler, Bruckner, et al.?, posted on February 8, 2015 at 07:53:07
used-hifi
Audiophile

Posts: 1100
Location: Surprise AZ
Joined: March 18, 2003
 umm my fultons are 250 lbs LOL...and yes they can at times create full live orchestral sounds....and these are 9 way speakers sir...LOL...

I am afraid that the single driver will be well into IM distortions before it can come close to the larger multi way systems ...so many tradeoffs


I would really like to build and put together a really good hi system efficiency music maker..I want to build Mr Medwin's little 2a3 amp


Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward

 

RE: Horn Shoppe Horns, posted on February 13, 2015 at 17:42:14
desperado915
Audiophile

Posts: 44
Location: USA
Joined: August 25, 2009
 I have the Hornshoppe Great Heiled Horns. I really liked the Hornshoppe Horns when I got them, but when I added the Heils I realized that they were a game changer. I recently took the Heils off my Hornshoppe Horns and tried them on my Tekton M-Lore's (which I thought were OK as a second speaker set)and they totally transformed them. That is the combo I am listening to now. I love the Heil's!! One thing I noticed with both combinations is that the efficiency increased.

 

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