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Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades

173.48.144.137
Posted on December 22, 2014 at 11:49:04
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 I bought ALK engineerings extreme slope crossovers for my Klipsch Cornwal III's. They sound wonderful at low levels, but I like to play rock music loud, the stock plastic squawker horns ring/resonate at volume with such hardness as to be unlistenable. The quality aftermarket replacement horns made for the Generation 1 & 2 Cornwal's won't fit because the Gen 3's moved the woofer about an inch away from the Squawker to improve the bass response. I tried coating the horn with automotive undercoat, and it helped a little, so I know I'm on the right track. Has anyone tried "Dynamat"? I'm sure I'm not the only person who has tried to tame the harshness of cheap plastic horns. Please help.

Thank you in advance, Steven M.

 

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RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 13:16:30
Coytee
Audiophile

Posts: 95
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: May 19, 2010
 You may not like what I'm going to say....then again, you may.

(I have no idea of your budget nor how extreme you want to take your speakers)

Having heard what I've heard, here's what I'd do (and in fact, AM doing with my LaScalas)

Buy a Klipsch K510/K69 ensemble (2" throat horn lens and driver)

Get an active crossover and go active with the speakers, taking them to a 2-way format.

If you like the sound, you could sell the ALK's to recoup some costs. If you became committed to the sound, you could sell the other drivers & horns as well (and plug the holes)

The K510 would sit on top of the speaker, I do not know if it would physically fit inside. I know you'd have to cut the front of the speaker and I personally would not want to do that.

(I am however, going to surgically alter one of my three LaScalas and do just that.... put a new motorboard on the speaker, make a cutout and insert the 510 inside the tophat.)

This is a Klipsch product, the 510 has been engineered but for, the specific crossover point. I (and others) could provide the PEQ's of going active with a LaScala but I couldn't give you the profile for the Cornwall (though Klipsch has told me it should work)

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 13:41:26
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 Yeah, Fastlane Audio has some beautiful horn designs for the Gen 1 & 2 Cornwals and Stack-on units for the Gen 3, La Scala, LaBelle and K-Horns. I think I'm going to experiment more with the horn treatments and settings (ALK provided for 6 mid-range and tweeter attenuation points and jumpers for two-way operation) I will exhaust all these options before I start in on irreversible changes to the cabinetry, as these speakers are less than 5 years old. I am intrigued by the B & C horn driver options, but I think getting the horn right is the first order of business.

Thank you for your advice.
May you have a Merry Christmas,
Best Regards,
Steven Manseau

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 14:36:58
amioutaline?



Try covering, completely covering the horns with the grey putty rope caulk sold at hardware stores with all the window and door insulation and known in these parts as Mortite.

It made a noticeable improvement on my high quality plastic horns, both the original Eminence H290 and now the new Pi H290C.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 16:34:42
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 I have dynamat on all my horns including the resin K701 in two sets of Heresy 3, it works very well. I also stuff the horn to about the half way point with 30 PPI open cell foam. You can install a 38mm dis non official ping pong ball using a narrow wrap around the seam with PVC electrical tape to make a good friction fit wedge the ball into the horn along the centre line til it is snug. with this in place you can fire the horn directly at your head. easy to do costs next to nothing. Let me know how you like it. Best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 16:37:38
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 I agree with Richards recommendation for a set of K510 horns. The K701 is a small tired old horn which distorts too much and is not large enough for the task at hand. Best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 16:56:23
Iain42
Reviewer

Posts: 895
Location: Arcansaw
Joined: February 10, 2004
 Really!!! PWK would put a horn on a speaker that distorts? HOGWASH

When they redid the Heritage line in 2006 they almost went with a much larger horn. I wish they had. Lots of options out there.






High sensitivity, wide dynamic range, low distortion, and smooth frequency response. Pwk

http://www.itishifi.com

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 18:00:58
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 With a crossover point of 600hz the world is your oyster.

Two little questions;

Are you willing to set bigger horns on top of the cabinet?

Do you want ultimate sound quality with a narrow sweet spot, or do you want to fill the house with music?

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 19:23:23
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 perhaps distort was the wrong term.
Harsh, fatiguing, ringing….
remember I have replaced the stock crossover with an extreme slope cross over from ALK. there are many tuning options to the crossover I have yet to explore. The bottom line is more energy is being pushed through that horn then it was originally designed for. If it were an aluminum horn, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Dampening undercoat has helped, so I know I'm varying up the right tree. when the volume levels are low, it sounds as sweet as can be. problem is, I like concert level volume.

The design as-is was ok, but there is room for improvement it's just going to take so effort on my part to workout the bugs. no one ever said speaker design or modification is easy



 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 22, 2014 at 19:54:40
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 Mass is your most reliable friend when dealing with vibrations. Damping is nice, and can on occasion do things that can't be done any other way, but more often than not either it does not work, or it solves inaudible problems without touching the audible ones.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 04:02:17
PeterZ
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: texas
Joined: November 8, 2003
 Did Al build an extreme slope particularly for the Cornwall III?
Those crossovers were used for the K55 mid driver. If I am not wrong, the Cornwall III does not use that driver so the component values in the crossover are possibly not a good match for the mid driver in the new Cornwall III. There are likely tweaks needed for the k-53-Ti driver. Crossovers aren't usually interchangeable for optimum performance.
PeterZ

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 04:12:58
PeterZ
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: texas
Joined: November 8, 2003
 BTW, previous comment may no not be totally correct.
Which extreme slope crossover are you using? ES600 or ES700? The Cornwall III is rated for 800hz cross to the mid with the Ti diaphragm. It may be pushing the mids a little too hard and low with the ES crossovers along with the Ti. I venture to guess the slope on the Cornwall is more gentle and pushed up in frequency to not make the Ti misbehave.
PeterZ

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:06:23
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 Peter,

I conversed with Al for close on a year on this design, it was his first Gen 3 Cornwal. Knowing Al, I'm quite certain he did his homework.

In the end he picked 600hz and 8000khz for the cross over points. In our email exchanges he went into extensive detail as to why he chose these points.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:18:02
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 Paul,

Al provided for 14 levels of attenuation for the mid range and five levels the the high end. I still have lots of dialing in to do before I jump into major changes.

Looking at alternative horns is all part of the research. So far I don't see even on one alternative to the stock horn without glomping one on top. I really don't want to do that.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:22:11
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 Al was well informed as to which drivers were used in the Gen 3, and yes this was his first design for the 3's

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:32:21
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 I tried low density cotton balls which helped, it points me in the direction of dialing in more squawker attenuation. Which involves removing the woofer. Al used jumpers to dial-in the attenuation, which I can't do for a while. I'm recovering for surgery. This sitting around not be able to tinker is killing me.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:34:54
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 Oooo. Great idea. Is it tacky enough? Do you think it will stay-put?

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 07:54:20
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 My wife is was an art director at an Ad Agency and now teaches art at the collegiate level. She is already unhappy as to how much real estate my equipment occupies (Open reel deck,turntable, mono-block amps, preamp, tuner, cassette, vhs, blu-ray, cd, separate AV receiver...). One entire room is dedicated to house all the media. I'm pushing my luck as it is..

True story, a friend owns a pair of Altec-Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers.(model 19) One day his wife piped-up said "those speakers are going, or I do!" My friend still owns his VoT's

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 08:21:23
PeterZ
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: texas
Joined: November 8, 2003
 High levels, pushing a driver designed for 800hz with a 600hz crossover, even if a high slope, might be pushing it. It would harden up and sound like you describe.
When you say more energy is coming from the midrange, that all makes sense. Maybe pushing too hard for the Ti.
PeterZ

 

RE: It has stuck for years nt, posted on December 23, 2014 at 09:00:28
amioutaline?

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 10:06:45
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 where did you get the idea that the K52 series of drivers is only good to 800 Hz.? You were misinformed. Best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 23, 2014 at 15:53:04
tutor turtle
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Location: Taxachusetts
Joined: November 8, 2006
 In the preliminary design stage, Al informed me since the Gen3 set the x-over points at 800 & 5000, he suggested (and I agreed) employing the gentle slope AP12-700 for the low end and the steeper sloop ES5800 for the mid to high point. It would be a very expensive mistake if what you are saying turns out to be true.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 24, 2014 at 05:14:02
PeterZ
Audiophile

Posts: 180
Location: texas
Joined: November 8, 2003
 I am just pointing out that Klipsch documents an 800hz crossover on the Cornwall III. Klipsch's crossovers don't typically push the lower registers as hard where the horn crosses (and shouldn't because that is where the distortion is).

My assumption and I maybe wrong is that the reason the 800hz crossover and horn combo with the Ti driver didn't get moved back down to the 600hz - 700hz (as in older speaker lines) is that it does not perform as well down there. Now hit the driver with high power and what will you have, probably not good sound?

Similar to reasons the pro horns typically bumped up in frequency range, they play better louder and are less likely to self destruct.

I could be totally wrong and for the investment, I hope so and there is an easy fix. I just don't think I would push this driver that low very loud plus being on then edge of the horn Fc doesn't help.

Easiest way to see if it is the horn ringing is to pack it in rope caulk. Removable and a good test. If the problem is not solved, a larger horn and possibly driver will be in order.

PeterZ

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 24, 2014 at 05:39:30
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 The same size driver is used in a CW2 and in Chorus 2 crosses at 600Hz I believe. The story was that Klipsch lost the mould for the K600 I suppose they also lost the mould for the K601 as well ad they had to use the K701 in the H3 as a result. The K700/701 is the device with the problem playing low because it is too small. Klipsch would get a big yellow BS button from me if I had one to send to them. Those who have switched out to the ti diaphragm in the CW2 and Chorus ll with its larger horn are as far as I know very pleased with the results. The K55 for those with a taste for phenolic diaphragms can play very low indeed very low. Best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on December 25, 2014 at 14:30:18
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 816
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 The K-55 will work down to 100 Hz. (although not very loud) it's the horn that's the limit.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on January 4, 2015 at 18:25:48
escape2cfc
Audiophile

Posts: 183
Location: Gulf Coast
Joined: August 27, 2007
 Hi, Consider using silicon caulk applied in beads or spread on. I did this on Altec 811 and 511 metal horns when I was prepping them for repainting. Inexpensive and can be scraped off. Just keep it away from wiring and internals.

 

RE: Cornwal iii Squawker horn upgrades, posted on January 5, 2015 at 13:53:21
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 Based on to Geddes (who generally does his research), what you are probably hearing are high order modes inside the horn (these get more objectionable as level gets higher). I think aluminum is likely to be more resonant, less well damped, than plastic. If all that is true, maybe your best move would be to get a block of 30ppi (approx) reticulated foam and carve wedges with an electric carving knife to fill your horns' volume. Attenuates the high order modes, doesn't cost much, needs no cabinet work, and doesn't change the outside shape of the speaker. No negatives, and it's reversible should you not like it.
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

No negatives ?, posted on January 6, 2015 at 15:19:58
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 "No negatives"

Other than attenuating the HF a whole bunch.

 

RE: No negatives ?, posted on January 6, 2015 at 23:21:47
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 "A whole bunch"

About 2dB. Less if fewer ppi foam is used.
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: No negatives ?, posted on January 7, 2015 at 17:33:43
JoshK
Audiophile

Posts: 820
Location: NJ/NYC
Joined: August 3, 2001
 I'm with you Bill. I don't see the return/risk tradeoff to be all that big of a deal. 2db attenuation in the xo is inconsequential if you know how to deal with it.
----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster

 

RE: No negatives ?, posted on January 7, 2015 at 18:07:33
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 So, how do you deal with it?

The stock autoformer doesn't have a 2dB adjustment.

 

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