I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?

Compact size, high efficiency, good bass response - you can only have two at a time, there's no way around this. The midrange peak sounds like cone breakup, again, This is one of the reasons why tweeters exist. Then add to the mix a SET amplifier, with its high output impedance, and the frequency reaponse will rise with the impedance of the speaker and make cone breakup sound all the more nasty unless there's some sort of zobel network or a copper shorting ring in the speaker driver.

I haven't heard a single driver I would rank with a good two or three way setup, and can't see how it is technically possible except maybe for an expensive 8" - 12" driver in a big cabinet or big open baffle.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 13:00:57

Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001

What are you doing wrong? Believing the hype is what you're doing wrong! :^)

OK, that was harsh. But single drivers have several characteristic faults, to balance their virtues. Many of them have a loud, ragged upper-midrange peak, which to some adds liveliness but to others is just painful. Many have limited and/or very beamy treble. And many have bass limitations, especially loud, deep bass.

All these faults can be and are addressed in various ways, of course. However, it's quite rare to find something that addresses all of them, successfully, at the same time.

Actually, IMHO all speakers have their own characteristic faults - I don't really mean to single out single drivers.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 14:00:15

DaveV
Audiophile

Posts: 513
Location: SC
Joined: December 26, 2009

45 to 20KHZ response huh? The missing part of that is how many db down at 10 and 20khz and good to 45 hz at how many db down in what type of enclosure.
I had a pair of Altec 755B's and couldn't figure out what the fuss was about unless they were used in a 3 way system as a midrange.
I've read all the faults of crossovers and this and that problem with a 3 way system but that's what sounds best to me.
There are those that say they are happy with a single driver but I'm not one of them and you may not be either.
I'm not that thrilled with 2 way systems either, not even my Altec Model 19's other than the bass that is clearly more solid at a lower frequency than my 3 way bookshelfs with a 12" woofer.

Using a single driver is what you're doing wrong :(, posted on December 15, 2014 at 14:25:28
Jay Buridan Audiophile Posts: 10283 Location: Michigan Joined: January 21, 2004	unfortunately "Horse sense is the thing a horse has which keeps it from betting on people. " ― W.C. Fields

Funny. I've heard a number of single driver systems and most, posted on December 15, 2014 at 14:43:02
Opus 33 1/3 Audiophile Posts: 4184 Location: D.C. Area Joined: February 19, 2014	provided first-rate sound. A few were even better than first-rate. What has been your experience that says otherwise? Opus 33 1/3

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 16:06:19
BTW Audiophile Posts: 512 Joined: August 20, 2000	Sounds like you got the polarity inverted....Single drivers are very sensitive to phase polarity... One of your equipment could be phase inverting.... try switching the + and - on the spks terminals and listen again...

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 16:25:53
ElWoodrow	Not a phase issue. The imaging is great.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 16:38:12
amioutaline?	I remember walking out of Terry Cain's room at mid-West Audio Fest, turning to my companion and getting an affirmative nod when I said it sounded like an AM radio. Every other single driver has just been a variation on that theme. Good to know the 2 of U.S. aren't alone.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 19:00:14
rjd Manufacturer Posts: 387 Location: So. Cal. Joined: June 16, 2002	I think what BTW is talking about is absolute polarity, try changing the polarity on both speakers, it can make a drastic difference on some systems.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 19:00:15
Coner Audiophile Posts: 3703 Location: S.W. Washington state, USA Joined: November 17, 2001	Is it a secret?. What exactly are these speakers?. Make/model.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 19:01:57

Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5574
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
Since: December 29, 2003

Looks like it can be done, for a price.

Voxativ Ampeggio

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 19:11:07
sonicboom Audiophile Posts: 81 Joined: June 10, 2003	Sounding like AM radio... That's a very good description! I am fairly certain that the culprit for this type of sound is the whizzer cone. I wonder if the driver in question here is of this type?

Yep...I'd look in that area for..., posted on December 15, 2014 at 19:20:17
Coner Audiophile Posts: 3703 Location: S.W. Washington state, USA Joined: November 17, 2001	Bad glue joints....whizzer, dustcap, bobbin to cone joint, could even be loose coils on the bobbin. All these can cause a raspy sound, buzzing, etc.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 20:23:58

gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004

Well, without knowing what speakers you have (though I understand your reasons for not divulging that info), it's hard to say for sure why you're getting sub-optimal results. Not all full-range speakers are created equal (by a long shot), and different remedies could apply to different manufacturer's products. What follows generally applies to most 'famous maker' full-rangers.

Bass reflex enclosures could be a big part of it. Many, if not most, full-rangers are optimized for some sort of horn loading, especially in the bass. You might check with the driver's manufacturer regarding recommended enclosures. Note that the manufacturer may be a different entity than the retailer (who may have their own recommendations). I'd start with the manufacturer's recommendations.

The screamin' midrange is a bit of a signature of some brands of full-rangers, though, with care, this can be tamed. It takes dedication and suffering, but it's not impossible as some would have you believe. Damping the enclosure to eliminate the back wave from bouncing back through the (usually very thin) cone is a good start. Tube operating points and amplifier component tweaking is another possibly rewarding approach. There are others.

Some full-rangers are unusually picky about amplifier matching and room set up. Even amplifiers that sound great with other speakers can sound dreadful with some full-range speakers. There's a synergy in getting it right that doesn't always come easy. Same goes for source components, BTW. This type of speaker rarely takes kindly to 'usual' room placement, also.

Break-in. Some full range speakers can take YEARS to break in properly. I have two pair of a famous brand of English-made full range speakers that are on the order of 50 years old. They're broken in, no doubt, but when left idle for too long (even a few days), they need some time to settle down.

Expectations. Full-range drivers are not the perfect speaker. Nothing is. There isn't one. Full-rangers, when properly implemented, can do some things that other speakers only wish they could do. But they can't do everything. Aligning one's expectations with the capabilities of the speaker is key. If you're looking for rock concert listening levels with room shaking bass, better look elsewhere. If you're looking for moderate volume, super high definition, breathy realistic, spooky 'you are there' listening, it can be had with SOME full rangers.

It would be unfair to lump all full range speakers in the same group, BTW. Many are awful, and you may have some of those. Most are severely limited and only tolerable. You may have those. But the best are magical.

BTW, I am not a single driver religion fanatic or anything. I have pairs of full rangers (full disclosure: mine are Western Electric 755A and Lowther PM6A and PM7A. All in factory-recommended cabinets, and all old production), but I also keep other speakers around, including QUAD ESL, RCA LC-1A, and Lansing Iconic 2-way. The full-rangers are one flavor. Not perfect for everything, but if they fall down on a particular night and recording, I move to something else.

I am totally sympathetic to those who have, upon hearing full range speakers, think them awful. The first pair I heard, I thought the owner must have been deaf or stupid--they were that bad. The next pair I hear weren't much better. Most of the implementations I've heard at audio shows (RMAF) were on a scale from intolerable to barely tolerable. Believe me, I get it. But lucky for me, I was treated to a good system (make that a great system) built around full range drivers. Once you hear what they can do, it's hard to let them go.

My wife has made me promise to never sell either the Lowthers or the QUADS. She loves them both.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 21:18:26
jad Audiophile Posts: 228 Location: OH Joined: August 23, 2002	Bass SPL comes from moving/displacing a lot of air. You get that with either a large piston (cone) with a minimal 'X'max (movement) or a smaller piston with a large 'X'max. Either way you won't wide frequency range and bass. To make use of your investment, bite the bullet and get a Subwoofer.

Whizzer cone?, posted on December 15, 2014 at 21:51:20

genungo

Some people swear by the single-drive/whizzer cone designs while many others swear at them, but the idea seems like an overly simplistic solution to me - especially when the size and design of the cabinet doesn't allow for much in the way of bass augmentation.

I own what I consider to be a variation on single-driver technology, referred to by some (including me) as "augmented single-driver" design because of the unusually wide frequency range the main driver covers, although others would simply refer to it as a two-way speaker. The tweeter (super-tweeter?) comes to the rescue only after 9000 hz or so, while the folded bass horn cabinet brings up the very bottom. No whizzer cone here, just an unusual looking phase plug.

One of the advantages of having a very high crossover point is coherence throughout the most critical part of the listening range, but I'm thankful that this manufacturer decided to forgo the use of a whizzer cone in his quest for coherence. Instead of sounding brash or overly lean, these speakers provide a smooth "back of the hall" listening perspective - almost the complete opposite of the sound you've just described.

I've only heard a couple of single-driver/whizzer cone speakers, though. For all I know, there might be some out there that sound absolutely wonderful. It is also likely that others simply hear things much differently than I do.

Just sayin'...

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 04:02:08

zobsky
Audiophile

Posts: 569
Location: dallas, tx
Joined: June 11, 2005

It's going to be really hard to offer any constructive advice without knowing what you have there but if we're gonna play 20 questions, maybe you could answer the following :
1. What is the nominal volume of the cabinet ( external dimensions are fine)
2. What is the length and internal diameter of the port .
3. Can you pull the driver and tell us what it is.
4. Is there any sort of BSC "compensation" inductor or some sort of crossover network in the cabinet

I've had similarly poor results with my tangband w8-1772 in a diy bass reflex a few years ago. It was a quick experiment and I didn't bother adding a BSC or notch filter to address the faults at the time

Overly small cabinets and cheap full ranges. pic, posted on December 16, 2014 at 05:35:57
Kloss	I think many expect too much from a huge compromise. Full ranges are at there best in proper cabinets these are mostly very large the transducers doing allot and should not be a place for budget cost cutting. I feel proper full range designs are simple in concept but complex and costly in implementation or they sound fairly harsh and weak. Pic is AER in 2 way and Fostex fe208e sigma in 160lb BLH.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 06:01:10

JoshK
Audiophile

Posts: 820
Location: NJ/NYC
Joined: August 3, 2001

That is the exact words we used at a listening session with a local club when listening to Terry Cain speakers. We literally said it sounds like a bad clock radio. And I am not trying to be combative or crap on someone's sweetheart, but I/we were at a loss how anyone could think that was good and realistic sounding.

I am not crapping on all single drivers mind you. I've heard Lowther's briefly at Dave Slagle's old studio in midtown, but that was very brief and it didn't sound bad, but didn't grab me either.

I heard some Fertin field coil drivers on an OB at Nate's place supported with two 15" woofers on the OB, so not single driver only, but those sounded glorious until very busy or complex music was played.

I have a pair of Planet Hifi's "Mar-Ken10.2 in stained medium stained Cherry over baltic birch with Alpair 10.2eN". I bought them for my dining room when entertaining guests and to have another pair of speakers to test amps and such on. I think they sound quite tonally balanced, which I am more sensitive to likely than most other audiophile virtues. They are missing the first octave and the shimmery highs, but that is the appropriate tradeoff of extremes to get the overall balance right while being coherent with no particular offenses. They aren't high efficiency and can't play super loud, but quite loud enough in my largish apartment.

I still think crossovers bring more to the table than then mess up but they need to be exacted well, not just some simple first order xo slapped on your driver using some online calculator. You actually have to measure and understand what you are doing.

----------------
"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 07:14:48

Inmate51

Who cares if they have a "stellar reputation"? YOU don't like them. Shouldn't that be thrown into their reputation mix? What are they?

Secondly, there is no such thing as a "large bookshelf speaker", unless you have very large bookshelves. ;)

Bottom line: What you're doing wrong is trying to use a single driver to cover the entire audio spectrum. It doesn't work very well (depending upon one's definition of "very well"). Inevitably, people who try it end up buying a "supertweeter" (which is actually a "tweeter") and a "subwoofer" (which is actually a "woofer"), and voila, they have a 3-way system.

:)

3 way with wideband mid, posted on December 16, 2014 at 08:48:53

Kloss

{Inevitably, people who try it end up buying a "supertweeter" (which is actually a "tweeter") and a "subwoofer" (which is actually a "woofer"), and voila, they have a 3-way system}. some truth to this only the f200a does not require sub bass assistance I also enjoy fe208e since it doesn't try for treble extension and thus is more a wide range for me many affordable fullranges treble response is beyond poor. Still a fe166en in proper nagaoka cabinets is a pretty good overall performer to me about as affordable as one can get and still expect good sound quality. I built loudspeaker pictured for a research group SARAH whose working with catatonics and elderly dementia patients have yielded results http://www.alzfdn.org/EducationandCare/musictherapy.html

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 09:57:20
BTW Audiophile Posts: 512 Joined: August 20, 2000	I would still recommend you switch both the spks + and - connections to double confirm.. or use a test disc with a polarity test to verify the correct phase

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 12:10:34
KanedaK Audiophile Posts: 2519 Location: Brussels Joined: April 27, 2010	I've read few times that full range drivers need front and back hornloading to achieve balanced sound...

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 13:28:25
zako Audiophile Posts: 935 Location: Mo. Joined: March 29, 2004	YOU SHOULD BE GETTING ALOT OF DOPPLER DISTORTION WITH A SINGLE SPEAKER,, NO WAY AROUND IT,,I REMEMBER PAUL KLIPSCH TAKING HARTLY (HARTLY FULLRANGE SPEAKER MFR) TO THE WOODSHED IN A DEBATE ABOUT THIS VERY SAME THING.. HARTLY NEVER RECOVERED..

RE:Frequency response claims, posted on December 16, 2014 at 13:56:48

mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16018
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
Since: October 23, 2016

There's been some interesting discussion on the topic on AK recently; I'd suggest perusing the link below if that topic is of interest.

pick up the discussion ca. post #75 (should be at the top of the thread page in the link below) -- and/or read the whole, rather aged, thread.

all the best,
mrh

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=507782&pag

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 14:07:46
Retsel Audiophile Posts: 1239 Joined: April 17, 2000	Of course they are going to sound bad if the bass is missing!!! People who don't know how to design speakers should not complain about the results they get when they slap a speaker system together. Retsel

Sorry, posted on December 16, 2014 at 14:31:13
Awe-d-o-file Dealer Posts: 21037 Location: 50 miles west of DC Joined: January 10, 2004	we need to know the driver and the exact size of the cabinet,port etc. Were they built or did you build them. Thanks in advance. E T ET "If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

The Poster was referring to absolute phase (both speakers), posted on December 16, 2014 at 14:35:03
mhardy6647 Audiophile Posts: 16018 Location: New England Joined: October 12, 1999 Contributor Since: October 23, 2016	Try reversing + and - on BOTH loudspeakers and see if it sounds any different to you. all the best, mrh

I Also Once Hated The Single "fullrange" Driver Sound, But Not Any Longer! , posted on December 16, 2014 at 16:29:43

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Hello ElWoodrow!

First I want to tell you there is no such thing as a single fullrange driver, period! That's right! Not even the much loved and very highly acclaimed Quad ESL can honestly be being called a true single fullrange driver! Presently the $27K/pr. Voxativ AC-4X drivers setup in their Voxativ Ampeggio Signature enclosures, are about the closest anyone's come to developing a commercially manufactured single "fullrange" driver in a properly setup enclosure and at $27K/pr. they're not what I'd call very cost effective.

Now as far as these wide-range driver nay-sayers posting down below go, I'd wager most of those going on & on about how poorly wide-range drivers sound have NOT ---{and I don't care how much they whine differently}--- heard a quality wide-range driver setup properly in the correct enclosure for the driver chosen! For some reason the majority ---{not all}--- of wide-range driver nay-sayers I've spoken with purchased a cheaper wide-range driver and used it in the wrong cabinet! Then when the sound was terrible they have the audacity to blame that on the "wide-range" drivers and come to the mistaken conclusion that all wide-range drivers suck! I honestly think most of these DIYers enter the world of single, "wide-range" drivers with this mentality. "I want to hear why these idiots believe one driver can sound better than my 2 or 3-ways, but I'm not spending any real money on the drivers because I already know wide-range drivers suck before I start."

The truth is 8 years ago I was one of these guys myself. The ONLY thing that set me apart from these guys is when I decided to see what all the "wide-range" driver fuss was all about, I didn't go cheap! I did go somewhat inexpensive, just not cheap. I started with a pair of Fostex's inexpensive, 8 inch, FE206E "wide-range" drivers. Then I hired Cardersound to build me a set of Sachiko double-back-loaded horns in Rosewood veneer. What I heard sounded so good I switched from using my $5,000 Italian, 2-way, Aliante Pininfarina One speakers to these Sachikos permanently and I've never looked back once! The photo just below shows you how my system looked then ---{the plans for these Sachikos, which are now called the Kirishimas, can be downloaded at http://www.frugal-horn.com/ for free}--- when the Fostex FE206E drivers were still in use.

As time went by and I learned more about wide-range drivers, I later replaced the Fostex FE206E drivers with Fostex's better & more costly FE206ES-R and later on again with Fostex's even more expensive $1.8K FE208ES-R drivers! My final change was done about 1 year ago when I replaced those Fostex FE208ES-R drivers with inexpensive, $256/pr, Dayton PS220-8 drivers that had Rispoli's $400/pr., 7-step, proprietary cone treatment applied. These inexpensive PS220-8 drivers are absolutely amazing. They're ok sounding stock, but with the cone treatment applied they're something special. They have the best frequency extension in the bass & treble ---{I'd say from 40Hz (maybe lower) to at least 13Khz}--- of all the drivers I've tried in my cabinets, which also includes a Lowther DX4! These drivers in the Sachiko cabinets allow me to play a small 4 piece ensemble with the PS220-8 drivers and I hear all the delicacy, inner-detail, correct harmonic tone, color and timbre that one would expect to hear when using a Reference level SET amp like the Mastersound Reference 845 amp and high-quality full-range drivers. Yet on the very next song I can switch from chamber music to playing Prog-rock like "Miracles From Nowhere" by Kansas at SPLs of 100dB+ with amazing dynamics, lightning fast transient response with all the delicacy, inner-detail, correct harmonic tone, color and timbre I heard with the chamber music but, absolutely no "Lowther shout" and not the slightest hint of strain! The best way to describe the Sachiko/Dayton PS220-8 combo's sound is to have you imagine listening to the very best set of ESLs, ribbon or planar speakers you've ever heard that now have a 95dB sensitivity rating and much, much better bass & treble extension! That will give you just a hint of an idea of what I'm talking about. This sound really needs to be heard to be believed. The best part is these speakers are easily duplicated. So anyone who hears them and likes what they hear can build the exact same speakers for themselves.

Anyone who doesn't believe me and would like to hear this for themselves is welcome to send me an email. Let me know when you're planning to be in the Orlando, FL area and I'll send you my phone number. We can setup a time for you to stop in for a listening session. Just one word of warning. Most people who stop by and plan on staying maybe an hour or two, but once they come over that usually turns into anything from a 3 to 5+ hours stay and that's ok with me. I love making new audio friends! Oh yeah since the photo up above was taken the silver-faced, Goldenote Stibbert CDP was upgraded to the newer, version 5, tubed unit with a black face. The CDP is now used solely as a transport with an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC. The tubes, with the exception of the Bendix 6900s have all changed. I now have Psvane WE845 and Psvane 12AU7-TIII installed. You can see my entire system at the link called Thetubeguy's Audio Room & System

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

Thetubeguy's Audio Room & System

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 18:19:38

Jim D.
Audiophile

Posts: 854
Location: FL
Joined: October 26, 2000

I've been down this road a few times. If you using a Lowther or AER driver, you are wasting your time IMHO if using anything other than a properly designed rear loaded horn, e.g. Medallion or similar. If Fostex, then I'm no help because I tried one popular Fostex driver and it was way too colored for my taste. Fast forward 10 years and I now use an all horn system. I sold my AER drivers after I listened side by side with horns for a couple months......but I kept my Lowther/Medallion combo because I love what they do on specific types of music and because I built them. But it is anemic on the mid to low end.

Jim D.

single driver sound.?, posted on December 16, 2014 at 18:49:37

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8207
Joined: July 4, 2002

To be clear, a single driver doesn't have "a sound" but instead can infer that by radiating from a single point in space and time, might potentially radiate something more faithful to the input signal than separate sources, separated in space and time.

On the other hand, none of that frees one from the limitations of what ever driver is used and for a small full range driver, bass and SPL is limited by the physics of the driver. Unless your sitting very close to the speakers, you may be over driving them.

Single drivers are not the norm because a driver that performs well up high is unsuitable for low frequencies. Keep in mind that the range of wavelengths we are dealing with is 1000 to 1, a VERY wide span.

So wide that often the range is divides into 2, 3 and sometimes 4 different frequency ranges with drivers suitable for each range.

What might be just the ticket is to add a sub-woofer driver that is happy running up to say 300 Hz and high pass your full range driver in the same area.
Even better would be to use a powered sub-woofer with an adjustable crossover.
Since the bass is what can most easily cause the little driver to distort, don't ask it to do something it isn't suited to do.

Lastly, a couple reality checks are in order, temporarily reverse the polarity of the connection to one speaker and see if the bass is better or worse (leave in best condition). Also connect some other speakers to your system to confirm that there isn't a signal chain issue.

RE: single driver sound.?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 07:25:00
kyle Audiophile Posts: 1839 Location: London Ontario Joined: September 29, 1999	The OP is apparently a manufacturer of speakers (Definitive Technology) and has a variety of subwoofers in their line up. It should be a simple matter to throw one or two into the mix and hear the results. As a manufacturer, he should be able to answer most of the questions himself.

I wonder why he would he pose the question here?..., posted on December 17, 2014 at 09:12:57
Steve O Audiophile Posts: 12378 Location: SE MI Joined: September 6, 2001	... As you note, as a mfgr he ought to have the resources nec to determine this readily at hand.

RE: single driver sound.?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 11:24:14
Inmate51	"To be clear, a single driver doesn't have "a sound" but instead can infer that by radiating from a single point in space and time, ..." WTF kind of a convoluted sentence is that?! Every driver has a "sound", and it doesn't infer anything.

RE: Whizzer cone?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 12:17:13

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Genungo I now use a somewhat similar approach as you do. I use Dayton PS220-8 extremely broadband drivers to running fullrange in Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. Then even though although almost all my audio friends told me I didn't really need to do so, I chose to replace a pair of Pioneer HW-7 super-tweeters at John K.s recommendation with a pair of the absolutely wonderful sounding Fostex T900a super-tweeters! I crossed the T900a's in at 10Khz and run them from 10Khz to their 38Khz max upper limit! Maybe I'm just a bit of a fanatic but, adding the T900a's adds that last little bit of air around the instruments & singers and that last little bit of shimmer on cymbals etc., that just isn't there without those T900a super-tweeters crossed in!

Without the T900a super-tweeters crossed in just the Dayton PS220-8 drivers in the Sachikos covers approx. 40Hz to 13Khz and with the T900a's added it's 40Hz to 38Khz! One day ---{the good Lord willing}--- I'll have my speakers covering from 20Hz to 38Khz!

20Hz to 100Hz = subs

100Hz to 10Khz = Sachiko/Dayton PS220-8 (presently 40Hz to 13Khz)

10Khz to 38Khz = Fostex T900a

Granted room is needed for overlapping the different slopes, but this is a decent representation of what drivers will cover which spectrums.

I'm listening to: Dust & Dreams by Camel

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

The upper midrange is just too forward and sharp. , posted on December 17, 2014 at 13:40:33

Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004

Take measurements, use an RC trap to deal with the shriek, remeasure, tweak parts.

You can use the second calculator linked below. Use 0uF for the cap, then play with the R and L until you get the desired correction.

You may as well post the driver you're using too. There will be a ton of people who also use that driver, and will flame you for bashing it, but it's still your best bet of getting actual help for this.

http://mh-audio.nl/parallelnotchfilter.asp

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 14:51:33
Scott L Audiophile Posts: 353 Location: Knoxville Joined: February 2, 2001	Very nice to see these real truths being spoken. It's about time.

As a speaker mfgr................................................(nt), posted on December 17, 2014 at 15:18:18
Steve O Audiophile Posts: 12378 Location: SE MI Joined: September 6, 2001

RE: single driver sound.?, posted on December 17, 2014 at 19:24:24

tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8207
Joined: July 4, 2002

To a degree we also hear “how” a loudspeaker radiates and it has nothing to do with the timber or response of the system.
For instance, playing a soft voice through a single loudspeaker with one’s eyes closed, it will be easy to hear what direction the sound is coming from BUT depending how th speaker radiates, it may be easy to localize the physical source as say 8 feet away, or it may not be easy to localize it’s depth location.
Things like response and distortion held near equal, one set of speakers may like most speakers play a mono signal that creates a phantom image BUT also clearly has a right and left source. The speakers which tend to be hard to localize in depth, may present a more solid mono phantom and the Right and left speakers are undetectable as “the source”. I have heard a number of small full range drivers on large baffles which do this very well.
On top of this is how the driver sounds, it’s departure from being faithful transducer and those flaws are easily heard using generation loss recordings.

He fought the Lore, and the Lore won., posted on December 18, 2014 at 00:22:42
jusbe Audiophile Posts: 5950 Location: North Island Joined: April 4, 2000	Seems this is a basic tenet of single-driver implementation. Above all, in my experience, they take a great deal of commitment. They will often reward that same commitment, done right, with moments of sonic ecstasy. Big J "... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal* salvation is a contradiction in terms."*

THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 18, 2014 at 02:17:47

morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005

Were speakers based on the Fertin Field coil drivers (Black Forrest audio Helix to Heaven) but even then they had huge 15inch Onken subs to fill in the bottom.

The only truly full range single driver speaker I have heard are the Acoustats. My Spectra 4400 were good from a true 20hz in-room to 20Khz. My Spectra 2200s were good from around 30Hz to 20Khz as were my 1+1s. Multiple panels but all working in parallel and over the full frequency range.

I haven't heard a lowther single driver system that I would call truly high fidelity. Only Horning has figured out how to use the lowther as a proper midrange but then he adds bass and a tweeter so it is a three-way system.

I use two-way horns...this sounds much better than any single driver system I have heard...even the new darling Voxactiv!

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 18, 2014 at 04:22:16
Chef Henry Audiophile Posts: 367 Joined: July 27, 2001	Hartley 220MS/220MSG

thanks, & question, posted on December 18, 2014 at 05:00:19
Chuck Audiophile Posts: 817 Joined: August 22, 2000	Your speakers look a bit different than the plans on the frugal horn site. Did you use a newer set of plans that haven't been posted yet, or did you tweak the design? Thank you.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 08:36:36

Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014

In my opinion "full rangers" do have a sound.

Specifically coloration of the mid to high frequency tones from the large direct radiator.

Once the width of the driver exceeds the wavelength of the frequency played it becomes more apparent.

Rather then working as a silent pump, the sharper leading edge of the high frequency waveforms are audible and heard as coloration.

Similar to striking a drum, a sharp attack leads to a response determined by the diameter, materials and tension, both internal and affixed around the circumference of the cone/drum skin.

This drum effect may be what Tomservo is referring to when they say they hear a localized sound.

Take that same drum or speaker and instead of striking the skin, push the skin with the stick. It is now silent. This push would be representative of a 1-3Hz half cycle burst. Despite being lower then most cabinets or drums are tuned to, you get the point.

This also explains the range of different tweeter sounds heard.
Despite being similar and fairly ideal in size, radically different compositions make some tweeters more acoustically inert then others.
This explains the the preference some have for silk dome tweeters vs a Piezo for example.

Cheers.

△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

Likely......Trying to do too much with too little, posted on December 18, 2014 at 09:19:19

Rafaro
Audiophile

Posts: 158
Joined: July 30, 2005

If you followed the advice already given and all checks OK (speakers wired in phase etc) likely you asking too much of a single driver to reproduce LF, MF,HF and dynamics in a bass reflex design. The amount of cone excursion required to produce bass will interfere with the clarity of the upper freq (intermodulation distortion). A sub will help as mentioned already. You may try a single driver in a full range front and rear horn loaded design. Check out the Dinsdale articles and single driver horn sites in the internet That should be an improvement.
Rafaro

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 18, 2014 at 11:30:13

E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37649
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
Since: April 5, 2002

My Spectra 2200s were good from around 30Hz to 20Khz as were my 1+1s. Multiple panels but all working in parallel and over the full frequency range.

While the 1+1s are truly full range, the SPECTRA series is not. They attempted to address the beaming by electrically isolating the HF content to a narrow strip of one of the panels. No longer were all frequencies delivered by all of the panel area. They became effective two-way speakers.

Here is a description of the "half panel" approach by Acoustat engineer Andy Szabo :

"The resistors feeding the mids/lows and lows-only sectors create a time delay (as do all R-C filters), which effectively creates the curved dispersion: electrically curved instead of mechanically curved. Therefore, it makes sense that the full range sector is close to the the inner edge of each speaker, so that adjacent sectors are time-delayed (or curved away from the listener) for a smooth dispersion pattern.

If you didn't know, Spectra is an acronym for Symmetric Pair Electrically Curved TRansducer."

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 18, 2014 at 16:25:21
johnsonad Audiophile Posts: 759 Location: Central California Joined: June 9, 2008	I for one am loving the pseudo single driver sound. It took a long time to get it right but recently, I was able to tune it in and it's the best my system has ever sounded. Altec 755A's from 80Hz up and Rythmik subs from 80Hz down. HPF in the subs to the power amps then to the speakers. It took a lot of fine tuning and we were not happy for 6 months. Don't give up too quickly!

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong? , posted on December 19, 2014 at 17:17:50

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Hi Johnsonad!

That's an excellent point that I failed to mention in my post to ElWoodrow! It can take a good bit of time to fine-tune the speaker's sound until you get it to the point where it sound's significantly better than any other speakers you've in your system. For me it took over a year to get it just right! But I never hated the sound. I always heard the potential and it always was worth keeping in my system instead of the Aliante Pininfarina Ones they replaced. But as I kept tweaking the sound got better and better. Until now I haven't heard a speaker under $10K that I'd rather have and maybe even a good bit higher than $10K!

I'm listening to: Beneath the Veil of Winter's Face by Mystery

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

RE: thanks, & question, posted on December 19, 2014 at 17:33:39

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Hello Chuck! Just below is a picture of my speakers in the center. To the left is part of the Sachikos original plans and to the right are a pair of Sachikos with the side of. With the exception that mine uses better wood and a Rosewood veneer, how do you feel they're different than the plans on Frugal-horn? I honestly don't see the differences...

I'm listening to: Beneath the Veil of Winter's Face by Mystery

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

RE: He fought the Lore, and the Lore won., posted on December 19, 2014 at 18:14:41

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Jusbe you couldn't be more mistaken. The proper broadband driver installed in the proper, BLH and I prefer double-BLH, will reward the owner with hours and hours, not moments of sonic ecstasy!

How many speakers do you know of can play Guinnevere by Crosby, Stills & Nash at lower SPLs with all the inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre and yet also be able to play Perpetual Change by Yes at 100dB+ SPLs with that same inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre plus with huge dynamics and lightning fast transients, without any "Lowther Shout" or sense of driver strain?

Best part is these type speakers are often 95dB+ sensitive, so they can play with the finest SET designs which makes for an even greater connection with the music. My Sachikos loaded with Dayton PS220-8 drivers that have a $400 cone treatment applied, easily play from 40Hz to 13Khz by themselves. I allow the PS220-8's to play "fullrange." I then add ---{in parallel}--- a pair of Fostex T900a super-tweeters that are crossed in at 10Khz and play to their fullest extension of 38Khz. Which provides a total of 40Hz to 38Khz frequency coverage!

I also allow anyone who wants to hear this for themselves to come over for a listening session. All anyone needs to do is give a day's notice ---{if possible}--- so I can send them my phone # and address. The people who come to hear these speakers in my system are usually taken quite a bit aback by what they hear! They always end up wanting to play another CD they've brought and what's supposed to be a 1-2 hr. listening session often turns to a 3-5+ hr. listening session. These are hardly speakers that provide only moments of sonic ecstasy, I'm sure they'll provide years of it!

I'm listening to: Beneath the Veil of Winter's Face by Mystery

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

I'm sorry if I sound like an ass but.... , posted on December 19, 2014 at 18:56:36

kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999

The OP is a manufacturer of speakers that are available everywhere. If he doesn't understand how to identify problems or how to design a speaker, are we here to alleviate that situation? He undoubtedly has more resources at his command than the average DIY guy does. Look at Definitive Technology (his company)and tell me if I'm just an off base wacko as usual.
If he doesn't like the sound, try a sub. If he doesn't like the highs, try a tweeter. If he doesn't like every thing, he can redesign it. What he can't do, in my eyes, is talk about a particular format sounding bad and act like a newby.
If you want to help a manufacturer make a better product that's a great idea and something we should all stand behind. If you're a manufacturer looking for a design staff, pay them.
His company site is listed here:

http://www.definitivetech.com/

Well. Yea. You do sort of., posted on December 19, 2014 at 19:46:21

ElWoodrow

the speakers I bought were for my personal use to try the single driver sound out of my own curiosity. We have a design team at Definitive of about 8 engineers who design our stuff and I am not in the engineering department. Also, A single driver speaker would never work in the consumer market, so I am not trying to get information to develop a product. I had read about single driver speakers and wanted to know what the fuss was about. This is in no way related to a potential speaker design for sale.

I am looking for help on making a single driver speaker sound good because the highly regarded ones I tried sounded terrible everywhere and in every room on every amp. I figured I just be doing something wrong in my set up. I was seeking advice on something I am not very knowledgeable about. I tried most of the suggestions and found none of them to help. So, I'm giving up of the single driver stuff. Maybe my room just doesn't work for these types of speakers.

The single-driver speaker Intried I did not like. But, at the next high end show I attend I will try to find a good demo.

I was simply seeking information on a subject I don't know much about from the more experienced people on this forum. I do work at Definitive, by I am also an audio hobbyist as well.

Bit far from you.and, posted on December 20, 2014 at 03:53:26

jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000

But am always happy to learn! My comments were aimed at those who would use wide-band drivers in small enclosures, which I think was alluded to in the OP.

I've had wide-band drivers before (AER, Fostex 208ES, Fertin field coil) so I'm not without experience in this space. Have also owned Hedlund BLHs too (used with the AER drivers) and have 5 volumes of BLH designs for Fostex drivers. I know what they can sound like, even if I don't use any currently (but have a pair of Isophon Orchesters waiting patiently on a shelf).

I maintain it still takes dedication to get it right - and more often than not, wide-band drivers will inevitably need augmenting at either end of the normal listening range - and need cabinets/mounting with particular care to adequately demonstrate their inherent strengths.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."

So, keep going with full disclosure, posted on December 20, 2014 at 05:49:35
Scott L Audiophile Posts: 353 Location: Knoxville Joined: February 2, 2001	I have an idea on what brand driver you tried. The truth is, they do indeed sound like crap. A lot of hype on their website. Even if I am right, I am not going to post the guess. If you really truly want help, then post ALL the details.

"If you really truly want help, then post ALL the details"..., posted on December 20, 2014 at 08:45:18

Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12378
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001

...By now it should be clear the original post was less a request for help and much more a "statement" and a provocative one at that. A this point there are 54 responses to the OP, only two of which are the OPer responding to the responses and one of them contains the declaration that he's done with single drivers. Bottom line: don't expect disclosure of anything because getting single drivers to work well probably wasn't the primary intention of the post in the first place.

Later!

8 Engineers, posted on December 20, 2014 at 09:15:38

Brian Levy
Audiophile

Posts: 2438
Location: Toronto
Joined: June 5, 2000

You have 8 engineers in a company and you post this here. I can come up with 2 conclusions: 1) you are concerned that full range speakers are turning a corner and may cut into your products materially or, 2) you have no faith in your engineers to solve your problems with the concept.

If I were 1 of your engineers and read your post I would be in your office asking a lot of questions and making a proposal and likely venting and being insulted.

What you have done with no disclosure that you are a competing manufacturer does not sit well. I find it so very odd that as a manufacturer you would personally buy something of such a nature for personal use. I suspect it came company funds as company expense, likely against the r&d budget. As a personal speaker system, it would be an embarrassment to tell others when asked that you do not use your own product in your own system.

When I owned my stores no product I did not sell was in my home non-vintage system. If we dropped a brand, if I had a model in my system, it came out and was replaced by a current model from a manufacturer we were a dealer of. For certain customers, they were invited home for auditions and I would be embarrassed if so.e competitor's product was in the system.

When I was with Genesis their totl speaker was not as good as the lowlyest speaker I owned but I did have a pair in a 2nd system to placate the boss.
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

RE: Well. Yea. You do sort of., posted on December 20, 2014 at 11:45:03

ElWoodrow

You certainly have a paranoid view of the world. How about this? Why don't you see if definitive ever makes a single driver speaker? It ain't happening. It's not in development. Our new products are all wireless network based audio. We will sell a lot more of that than an expensive, quirky niche product ever would.

I'm sorry you view everything as a conspiracy to defraud others. It was just an individual asking for suggestions. Not everyone is bad bad person with nefarious intentions.

RE: "If you really truly want help, then post ALL the details"..., posted on December 20, 2014 at 11:46:37
ElWoodrow	Another paranoid audio conspiracist, I thought there might be one forum where people were civil. I guess not.

RE: Well. Yea. You do sort of., posted on December 20, 2014 at 11:52:30
Garg0yle Audiophile Posts: 859 Joined: December 1, 2014	Ya I didn't really see the harm in the question. Happy Holidays. △This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

RE: 8 Engineers, posted on December 20, 2014 at 11:58:35
ElWoodrow	I Might also point out that I would likely hide where I work in my profile if I really was trying to steal trade secrets to create a single driver product. Currently I am using the Definitive STS with my 300B amp and having fantastic results. It is 92 db and has a powered woofer section.

RE: Well. Yea. You do sort of., posted on December 20, 2014 at 13:06:02
Don Reid Audiophile Posts: 890 Location: Rural NW Georgia Joined: February 2, 2001 Contributor Since: April 1, 2010	E1Woodrow wrote, "Aren't transistors alien technology?" No they were invented right here on Earth. If memory serves me correctly they were a Bell Labs invention. I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

Bell Labs obtained the technology from an otherworldly source....., posted on December 20, 2014 at 13:56:22
Steve O Audiophile Posts: 12378 Location: SE MI Joined: September 6, 2001	...and presented the result to the public as if it was their development. This fact was actively concealed at the time but with the advent of the Internet we now know the truth ;-)

RE: Bit far from you.and, posted on December 20, 2014 at 14:08:13

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Hello again Jusbe!

Well obviously if the OP was attempting to get a broadband driver or wide-range driver ---{which is a much more correct description than fullrange driver}--- to sound good in a small enclosure that was his first mistake and I told him that when I posted: people who complain about how poorly wide-range drivers sound have NOT heard a quality wide-range driver setup properly in the correct enclosure for the driver chosen!

My friend uses two pairs of Hedlund horns. One pair runs a pair of Lowther DX4 fullrange and the other pair runs a pair of Fostex SLE20W, alnico, edgeless woofers that were also used as woofers in Fostex's own GZ1001 ribbon speakers, as pseudo-subwoofers or helper woofers if you prefer! These Hedlunds sound very good indeed and were the actual catalyst that prompted me to try my hand with broadband drivers. But as good as those Hedlund/Lowthers sound they don't hold a candle to the Sachiko/Dayton combo.

I envy your owning a pair of Fertin field coils drivers. I've heard a lot of great things about them. I had never heard those Isophon Orchesters, that you own, but they look very interesting. If you have them in the original cabinets they came in you're way ahead of the game because you won't have to research locating the correct type of cabinet and then the correct size of that type of cabinet for the Isophon Orchesters drivers! I'm amazed you can let them sit around and not use them. I wouldn't have that level of restraint!

I agree with your assessment that using broadband drivers requires dedication to get it just right. I think a lot of what passes as being wide-range drivers are IMHO actually just midrange drivers with a larger than average frequency range. As much as I enjoyed the sound of my original Sachiko/Fostex FE206e combination had I not continued tweaking with types of stuffing materials, amount of those stuffing materials behind the driver, different broadband drivers and cone treatments, I would never have ended up with the type of stuffing, the amount of stuffing, the Dayton PS220-8 drivers and the cone treatment I use today. Although many of the correct tweaks for the Sachiko cabinets were discovered within the first 18 months of my present 8 year journey down the broadband driver path of audio. Discovering the best sounding driver & cone treatment for the Sachikos took traveling almost 6.5 to 7 years down that same path. Had I not had the dedication and determination to get it right as you said, I would have never taken the sound quality up to the level it's at now!

I'm genuinely sorry I'm so far from you, but if you ever visit Orlando for a vacation, send me an email and I'll have you over! I think you are one of the ones who'd really enjoy what you'd hear...

I'm listening to: Polosur by Marcelo Aedo

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

My Response To The OP

RE: "If you really truly want help, then post ALL the details"..., posted on December 20, 2014 at 14:31:20
Don Reid Audiophile Posts: 890 Location: Rural NW Georgia Joined: February 2, 2001 Contributor Since: April 1, 2010	Aren't transistors alien technology? I already answered this question for him in my post above. I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 20, 2014 at 14:32:18

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

If you believe JoshK is posting the truth than your hearing must be as poor as his appears to be! As I've stated numerous times here:

I'm using fairly inexpensive, $256/pr, Dayton PS220-8 drivers that had Rispoli's $400/pr., 7-step, proprietary cone treatment applied. So that's $656/pr for drivers in Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. These relatively inexpensive Dayton PS220-8 drivers with the cone treatment applied are absolutely amazing. Loaded in the Sachiko cabinets they have the best frequency extension in the bass & treble ---{I'd say from 40Hz (maybe lower) to at least 13Khz}--- of all the drivers I've tried in my cabinets, which also includes Fostex FE206e, FE206es-r, FE208es-r and Lowther DX4!

These PS220-8 drivers in the Sachiko cabinets allows me to play a song by a small acoustic group such as Guinnevere by Crosby, Stills & Nash at low SPLs with all the inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre. Yet on the very next cut I'm able to play Perpetual Change by Yes at 100dB+ SPLs with that same inner-detail, delicacy, correct harmonic tone, color & timbre plus with huge, wide dynamics and lightning fast transients, but, without any "Lowther Shout" or sense of driver strain. How many speakers do you know that can do that with only a 40W/ch tube amp and sound great playing both songs? This Sachiko/PS220-8 combo sounds like the best ribbon/planar/ESL speakers, but with a 95dB sensitivity rating & much, much better bass & treble extension! That will give you just a hint of an idea of what I'm talking about. This sound really needs to be heard to be believed. The best part is these speakers are easily duplicated. So anyone who hears them and likes what they hear can build the exact same speakers for themselves.

I'll extend to you the same invitation I've extended to others. If you don't believe me come hear this for yourself! I live in the Orlando, FL area. Just let me know when you're planning to be in the Orlando, FL area and I'll send you my phone number. We can setup a time for you to stop in for a listening session. Just one word of warning. Most people who stop by and plan on staying maybe an hour or two, but once they come over that usually turns into anything from a 3 to 5+ hours stay and that's ok with me. I love making new audio friends! Oh yeah since the photo up above was taken the silver-faced, Goldenote Stibbert CDP was upgraded to the newer, version 5, tubed unit with a black face. The CDP is now used solely as a transport with an Audio-gd Reference 7.1 DAC. The tubes, with the exception of the Bendix 6900s have all changed. I now have Psvane WE845 and Psvane 12AU7-TIII installed. You can see my entire system at the link below called Thetubeguy's Audio Room & System

I'm listening to: Polosur by Marcelo Aedo

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

Thetubeguy's Audio Room & System

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 20, 2014 at 14:50:26

Scott L
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Location: Knoxville
Joined: February 2, 2001

Tom,

No offense at your system was meant by any stretch. Matter of fact, I have recognized your enthusiasm for your system for quite a while now.

I was just telling Mark, who stopped by to listen to my latest, that I would probably visit you sometime in the future as I often visit my former home land aka Florida. There is no direct flight from Knoxville to west palm, so one time before I flew to Orlando and then drove down. Saves me about 10 hours of windshield time.

I suppose his last line rang home for me the most:

"I still think crossovers bring more to the table than then mess up but they need to be exacted well, not just some simple first order xo slapped on your driver using some online calculator. You actually have to measure and understand what you are doing."

p.s. My system is also based on an eight inch wide band, but I don't push it to the frequency extremes. I use it as a mid-range in a cat's meow ultimate 4 way system.
kindly regards, and Merry Christmas :)

He appears to be..., posted on December 20, 2014 at 14:58:34
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	...one of the morons who use a signature line in the same size and font as their regular posts. Very annoying that...

RE: "If you really truly want help, then post ALL the details"..., posted on December 20, 2014 at 15:54:17

ElWoodrow

I will end this conversation. I refuse to disparage the other speaker company that I didn't have success with their product as they are highly respected by others. I know many people at other companies and prefer to remain on good terms with all of them. I will give these speakers another home with a friend who might have better luck with setting them up.

I might have a tricky room. I can't change the room. These speakers could be amazing with the right room and equipment. I have a very high ceiling and have to set them in from of a Stine mantle surrounding a fireplace. My Definitive STS work very well here, but I assume this is because I can dial in the bass as they are self amplified.

Oh, and another thing. Many people who work for companies in the AV business don't own the products they sell. You might. Be surprised. People in the AV business change companies a lot and they don't dump their old system every time they change jobs. They also own other products to benchmark against them. Quite a few people own Quad ESLs for just that purpose. They are the reference standard for transparency and speed. Quite a few employees of other speaker companies have bought speakers from Definitive. We don't assume that they feel their products suck, just that they prefer our speaker in a particular situation. A number of people have bought our outdoor speakers and in ceiling speakers because their company doesn't offer that type of product. We don't name names as that would be considered impolite.

RE: Bell Labs obtained the technology from an otherworldly source....., posted on December 20, 2014 at 18:04:53
Bill Fitzmaurice Industry Professional Posts: 5371 Location: New England Joined: October 20, 2002	The Roswell crash was in July 1947. Bell Labs began experimenting with semi-conductors in November of that year. Coincidence?

Indeed. A Lt. Woodrow mysteriously dissapeared in '47, posted on December 20, 2014 at 18:29:13
uncle mag Audiophile Posts: 852 Location: sf bay area Joined: June 29, 2004	Some say this Mr. Woodrow is an alien and trying to steal our single driver secrets for nefarious otherworldly purposes. What if.. he has lived here for eons and made single driver speakers to eventually drive human kind to madness and take over our world?

C'mon man, you need to own every, posted on December 20, 2014 at 18:52:38
uncle mag Audiophile Posts: 852 Location: sf bay area Joined: June 29, 2004	product in your companies line to be a good worker bee. Toe the line, you may not think for yourself. Why, in my living room I have a dead fish from every catch my fishing boat has ever hauled to market. Ah! the wonderful sweetness of it! My owner just loves me. Personally I'm appalled at the nastiness posted in this thread.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 20, 2014 at 20:12:52

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Scott I never took your comments as a personal disparage of my system. I just get upset when some of the clowns here (not you) and elsewhere talk in absolutes i.e., "single broadband drivers sound terrible" when most of these people have heard only a couple broadband drivers and often times it's a cheap broadband driver used in an enclosure that isn't even correct for the driver selected! I'll readily grant that using a speaker with a broadband driver isn't like purchasing your typical 2-way or 3-way commercial speaker! It takes time and dedication to get the very best sound from them, but almost all the great sounding speakers require that same dedication to elicit the very best sound from them as well. I've been 100% truthful here from the beginning. A pair of Sachiko DBLHs with the Dayton PS220-8, with the cone treatment applied and installed properly, will easily provide a frequency response of 40Hz to 13Khz.

Now as I stated before although many if not most of my audio friends felt it wasn't needed. I added a pair of Fostex T900a super-tweeters to extend the response to 38Khz. I also have a pair of 15", OB, Hawthorne Audio, Augie speakers that I might play with in the future. But I honestly believe I'll either used tapped horns ---{this is to keep the same quickness in the low-end of 25Hz to 100Hz that the Sachikos provide}--- or else I'll use the DIY Bucket Sub by Ed Schilling of The Horn Shoppe that's on Transcendent Sound's website at the link below! I could use the Sachiko/PS220-8 combo "as-is" 99% of the time, but every so often I want the bite of a super-tweeter and even less often I'd like to feel some really deep bass! To my way of thinking if you can disconnect the tweeter and woofer and the speaker still provides a performance you can enjoy and live with, then that's about as broadband a speaker as one could ever hope for. I'll end with this; I've never heard a person with a 3-way speaker and a super-tweeter and subwoofer refer to their speakers as 5-ways. So why do they insist when a person who uses a broadband driver adds a super-tweeter and subwoofer their speakers, those are now 3-ways?

I hope you visit sometime Scott we'll have a great time and you can tell people here what you honestly thought about the sound quality you heard here!

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

Transcendent Sound's website

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 20, 2014 at 20:44:14

Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014

There seems to be so much contradiction in this post.

Tweeters, woofers, special cone treatments, esoteric bass whistles, efforts over long periods of time....

This does not bode well for the "when most of these people have heard only a couple broadband drivers and often times it's a cheap broadba...."

While the limited bandwidth may be acceptable to your personal tastes after a bunch of tweaking, I don't think this is typical or representative of typical "full range" speakers.

They sound best IMO in open baffle, but then that exacerbates the bandwidth situation.

The river of denial is a torrent.

Happy Holidays
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RE: Free lunch ?, posted on December 21, 2014 at 05:33:23
belman.belman@yahoo.com Manufacturer Posts: 12 Joined: December 19, 2010	All High efficiency drivers get some weakness point, They coudnt produce not only good high not only good base comparable with good tweeter and good woofers , they got unwanted resonansce in 3000-8000 Hz and also get bad performance in midbass region 150-400 HZ, To resolve this problem it is not enough just add Supertweeter and sub

dang aliens -- they only gots one ear (nt), posted on December 21, 2014 at 05:58:47
mhardy6647 Audiophile Posts: 16018 Location: New England Joined: October 12, 1999 Contributor Since: October 23, 2016	nt all the best, mrh

And a bad one at that...early SS audio wasn't so good (nt), posted on December 21, 2014 at 07:55:51
Steve O Audiophile Posts: 12378 Location: SE MI Joined: September 6, 2001

witch hunt , posted on December 21, 2014 at 09:21:17
Kloss	I highly doubt that a company like Def Tech would build a full range driver loudspeaker and if they wanted to the information exists in legion with just a brief google search. Its the usual AA response that manufacturers are somehow disingenuous shills.

RE: thanks, & question, posted on December 21, 2014 at 09:27:43

Kloss

Easy to see why fe208esr did not load this cabinet properly. Tom you need to think of a loudspeaker as a whole fullranges are not a universal design that can be used in any cabinet. Its not the drivers fault that it was used in improper cabinet design. Thus your opinion on different transducers only related to them being used in this cabinet not a general this is better than the other but more like this is better in this cabinet.

RE: witch hunt , posted on December 21, 2014 at 13:44:17

Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5371
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002

>Its the usual AA response that manufacturers are somehow disingenuous shills.

That's perhaps a bit of a harsh judgement, though I agree some of the responses were also a bit harsh. However, while it's understandable that an executive wouldn't have the technical chops to identify technical issues, it's also curious that his engineers wouldn't.
I know that I don't care for single driver full range systems. If the cone is large enough to deliver the lows it's also going to be too large to deliver the highs, if not on-axis then certainly off-axis.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 22, 2014 at 08:18:22

horn kid
Audiophile

Posts: 128
Joined: November 2, 2014

What are you doing wrong? 1. Listening and deciding for yourself. 2. Admitting the high distortion to yourself instead of succumbing to peer pressure to join the club of the denizens in denial.

The desire for utter simplicity causes some to fall into the trap that the sound is great. If one builds them oneself the urge engage in denial is stronger. The truth is, the best of them run full range just don't sound great.

RE: thanks, & question, posted on December 22, 2014 at 12:13:57
genungo	Any suggestions on what might be a better set of drivers to use in his cabinets?

RE: witch hunt , posted on December 22, 2014 at 20:01:13

Don Reid
Audiophile

Posts: 890
Location: Rural NW Georgia
Joined: February 2, 2001
Contributor
Since: April 1, 2010

Kloss, before I accept your blanket condemnation of High Efficiency Speaker Asylum members as always being mean to manufacturers I would like to know if we have made you feel rejected or mistreated.

I can't imagine that I have made you feel that way since I have always been shamefully approving of both your designs and craftsmanship.
I dream of an America where a chicken can cross the road without having it's motives questioned.

Blanket, posted on December 23, 2014 at 06:55:59
Kloss	Lots of wonderful people on AA I refer to the treatment the Def tech manufacturer recieved I have also noted others being chased away . Do understand AA rules and the manufacturer restrictions I feel are fair. Dont think I lumped all forum members into my post but the attitude I eluded to exists.

sorry--went to the Frugelhorn site, and this is what I saw:, posted on December 23, 2014 at 08:07:24

Chuck
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Joined: August 22, 2000

I hadn't realized there were other versions than the pictures on their main page. Thanks for following up.

FrugelHorn images

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 23, 2014 at 15:36:44

morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9180
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005

While the 1+1s are truly full range, the SPECTRA series is not. They attempted to address the beaming by electrically isolating the HF content to a narrow strip of one of the panels. No longer were all frequencies delivered by all of the panel area. They became effective two-way speakers.

I know this but it is STILL a single panel...not separate drivers...therefore it is still a single full range driver.

The driver that has the highs isolated also does the full range...the second panel does mids and bass only.

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 23, 2014 at 15:40:39
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9180 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	Come to think of it the Quad 63 is also a single driver speaker that is electrically segmented and so is the STAX ELS-F81 and F83 (two panels of the F81 per side).

RE: Bell Labs obtained the technology from an otherworldly source....., posted on December 24, 2014 at 07:11:07
genungo	Secret sources attribute the Roswell UFO crash to vacuum tube failure. The aliens were tired of using cheap Chinese made tubes, they wanted to steal the military's stash of Mullards.

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on December 24, 2014 at 09:12:39
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 37649 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	...therefore it is still a single full range driver. Except of course when you listen to it nearfield.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on December 25, 2014 at 14:13:48

nl
Audiophile

Posts: 730
Joined: March 18, 2002

Hi Josh,

It's too bad we didn't have the OB bass turned on at that time. We were just listening to the Fertin on the OB, not much going on below 80hz or so with that and rather lean below 120hz or so.

After five years of headphones, I finally got the vintage 110hz wideband horns running with proper implementation. Twin 15" sealed subs below, tweeters at 6khz, subs and tweets digitally time-aligned (big improvement).

Most of the advantages of the Fertins plus 110db efficiency and huge headroom. A lot of fun, and like a lot of vintage/wideband things, also very quirky.

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2014/020214.html

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on January 4, 2015 at 22:13:40

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Hi Brad!

I made a somewhat similar comment about Quad's being a single, but not "full-range" driver almost a week ago on 12/16 as seen below! IMHO more proper name for these types of drivers would be a single "wide-range" or "broadband" driver! In any event it's really nice to see that others, besides myself, realized these types of drivers weren't limited to just dynamic cone-type drivers! Those who really thought about this understood some ESLs, ribbons and planars were possible contenders in this category of drivers too!

I'm listening to: Suspended Night by Tomasz Stanko Quartet

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

Single Wide-range Drivers

RE: thanks, & question, posted on January 7, 2015 at 18:03:27

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

Jon of course you're 100% correct and I'm sorry if I unintentionally mislead anyone. All my comments about any of these broadband drivers are all based on them being installed in my Sachiko cabinets. The Fostex FE206E's sounded very good, the FE206ES-R's sounded even better, I really liked the FE208ES-R's in the Sachikos from about 40Hz to 10KHz, but it would be difficult to compare them fairly vs the other two Fostex drivers because they had a special, proprietary, 7-step cone treatment applied, that the FE208ES-R's didn't have applied in order that I might keep their resale value high! Same goes for the Lowther DX4. The Dayton PS220-8 has that special, proprietary, 7-step cone treatment applied and with it applied, and installed in the Sachikos it smokes every other broadband driver I've ever heard in the Sachikos and elsewhere! I hope that clarifies my position better. Thanks for keeping things straight Jon.

I'm listening to: The Outsiders by Altered Laws

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

RE: thanks, & question, posted on January 7, 2015 at 18:17:05

thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001

In the Sachikos the Dayton PS220-8 drivers with the special, 7-step, proprietary, cone treatment applied are the best sounding drivers in the Sachikos that I've ever heard. I'd be amazed if anyone can come up with a better sounding driver than the PS220-8 drivers because the Sachikos were actually designed for usage with the Fostex FE206E drivers. And having personally compared the FE206E vs the PS220-8. I can tell you it's no contest, the PS220-8 literally smokes the FE206E drivers ---{with the cone treatment applied to both drivers}--- in the Sachikos!

If anyone claims they know of a driver that sounds better in the Sachikos than the PS220-8 ---{with the cone treatment applied}--- would have to prove it to me that it sounds better! But anyone can come here to my home, listen and hear for themselves what these PS220-8 drivers do in the Sachikos! Finally if both the FE206E and PS220-8 are both run stocks, sans any cone treatments, their performance is closer, but I still prefer the PS220-8 by a smaller margin.

I'm listening to: The Outsiders by Altered Laws

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on January 7, 2015 at 18:19:18
thetubeguy1954 Audiophile Posts: 6112 Location: Orlando, Fla Joined: January 7, 2001	If you are happy listening to your system, that's all that matters... I'm listening to: The Outsiders by Altered Laws Thetubeguy1954 (Tom) Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on January 15, 2015 at 12:27:22
EduardG Audiophile Posts: 284 Location: So. Cal Joined: May 30, 2002	Some 20 plus years ago I had the pleasure of visiting Frank Reps at his home in Claremont, CA and listening to his Lowther (TP-1 if my memory serves me well) speaker driven by a SE 2A3 amp. Probably the best sound for jazz and light chamber music I'd ever heard.

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on January 19, 2015 at 12:32:54
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9180 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	No, this is not correct. The part of the speaker doing high frequencies is ALSO doing everything else...it is the rest of the panel that is not doing highs or mids.

RE: THe only single driver systems I have heard that sounded really good, posted on January 19, 2015 at 12:35:29
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9180 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	Yeah, I don't know why people forget that there were (are) full range electrostats that are not based on multiple drivers. THat said, they are not high sensitivity.

Exactly my point!, posted on January 19, 2015 at 13:30:22
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 37649 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	it is the rest of the panel that is not doing highs or mids. Not all of the panel area is running full range. There are no highs coming out of 75-80% of the panel area depending upon configuration. Unlike designs that run truly full range across 100% of panel area, that requires some distance for optimum blending.

RE: thanks, & question, posted on January 20, 2015 at 07:30:52
genungo	Did Kloss ever explain why he thought those Sachiko cabinets of yours were not optimal enclosures for the drivers you've been using? I would be interested in knowing how an engineer could guess about something like that without measuring and listening.

RE: I am hating the single driver sound. What am I doing wrong?, posted on January 21, 2015 at 07:48:57

JoshK
Audiophile

Posts: 820
Location: NJ/NYC
Joined: August 3, 2001

Hey Nate,

Actually we listened to it both ways, with and without the OB subs. I am not sure if you were HP'ing the Fertins, but you did turn the bass on for part of the session IIRC.

When I said it got a little overwhelmed, it was when you left to run an errand I through Tool on at a moderately loud level. Nothing terrible, just got a little congested sounding. I bet if you bandpassed the Fertins as you have in your system now, it would be quite different.
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"When Khruschev said "we will bury you" I don't think he meant with surplus parts." zacster

RE: Exactly my point!, posted on January 28, 2015 at 04:08:57
morricab Distributor or Rep Posts: 9180 Location: switzerland Joined: April 1, 2005	No, but the area where there are highs is running full range.