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15" Woofer for 2-way project

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Posted on November 4, 2014 at 08:26:08
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014






I'm looking for a great woofer to play from 40Hz - 800 Hz. This is to be used for domestic use, sound quality is of utmost importance. Cabinet will be onken style 150 liters. Right now I'm looking at the B&C 15CL76 at $176 each Canadian. Can anybody recommend something else?

This will be a 2-way system using 12 dB passive crossover.


 

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RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 4, 2014 at 18:10:08
kyle
Audiophile

Posts: 1839
Location: London Ontario
Joined: September 29, 1999
 The GPA version of the Altec 416 would be a good bet from 40 to 800.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 5, 2014 at 08:47:46
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014
 Thanks for the suggestion. Is this readily available?

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 5, 2014 at 09:05:50
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 If you want new, this is an excellent choice.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 5, 2014 at 10:34:54
ronnishim
Audiophile

Posts: 7
Location: Hawaii
Joined: October 28, 2014
 Agree with the 416 rec as I've had these in my cabinets for 4 years. If buying used, make sure they're tested and 16 ohm and purchase from a reliable Ebayer. I've looked at these for an upgrade but don't exactly know how much better these are. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?20088-Explain-Tad-woofers-Help

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 5, 2014 at 17:48:54
tweakydee
Audiophile

Posts: 432
Location: VA
Joined: February 27, 2004
 How about the Faital Pro 15PR400?

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 6, 2014 at 08:19:33
Inmate51
 That's a purdee-looking speaker.

I don't want to rain on your parade, 'cause you're obviously passionate about doing this and you want great sound quality, but...

The girl you want might not be the girl you should marry.

If you want great sound quality (the definition of which varies from person to person), you really gotta go to a 3-way, or maybe even a 4-way.

All these "full-range" people are in denial. Inevitably, they add a woofer and a tweeter - which makes it a three or four way speaker!

I've not seen a 15" woofer which does 800 Hz well, in a domestic environment. They can 'work' in studio control rooms, where there's a limited and specific horizontal listening area, the room is fairly 'dead', and early reflections are properly controlled. I've also not seen a compression driver which does both 800 Hz and 18,000 Hz well.

If you are hell-bent on a 2-way, go to a 10" or 12" woofer, to gain greater dispersion and a better match to the "HF" horn's dispersion.

That's all I've got for now.

:)

P.S.: Yes, yes, the old Altec 19 and such sounded great in their day and within a certain listening area and especially in a room with the curtains, carpeting, and over-stuffed furniture of the day.


A 15" has very limited dispersion at 800 Hz.


On the other hand, some people here call me a troll. THW them. LOL

:)

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 6, 2014 at 08:47:23
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014
 Well, that's specifically what I'm worried about and thanks for bringing it up. I have the Altec 416-8C with new GPA cones (they are my brother's). They don't sound good at all playing in the range where I want them, hence the question. The only driver I've heard play well into this range is the B&C 15cx40 coaxial on an open baffle. Now it has a 3" voice coil with edge wound aluminum wire, and so this is why I'm looking at something similar from B&C (15CL76). What's your thoughts on a High BL 12" in a small sealed enclosure complimented by a 15" Dayton Audio Subwoofer with huge xmax and low FS?

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 6, 2014 at 13:16:05
Zedguy
Audiophile

Posts: 142
Joined: September 14, 2007
 The TD15M is the finest 15" I have used to date (especially with the Apollo upgrade). The downside is the wait time as they are built by hand when ordered.

aespeakers.com

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 7, 2014 at 10:05:54
Inmate51
 I would go with a good 15" on the bottom, but would put a 6-8" or so in between it and the compression driver. Cross the 15 at a couple hundred Hz or so, run the 6" up to maybe 2K, and let the compression take over from there on up. Obviously, this is a general idea, not a specific design, but it will result in better sound and more uniform dispersion than a 2-way 15" with a compression driver.

:)

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 7, 2014 at 11:13:07
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1988
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 "I've not seen a 15" woofer which does 800 Hz well, in a domestic environment."

I don't agree.

I live with a 15" driver that goes up to 1200hz that sounds sublime. (Jensen P15ll)... w a very simple crossover.

And what do you think ALL 15" DC Tannoys are doing? Most of the ones I know about are crossing over at 1000hz. Not many people are complaining about their Tannoys not having appropriate dispersion in their homes...including Jim Smith.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 7, 2014 at 12:39:02
Frank Mena
Audiophile

Posts: 279
Location: S Western Ontario
Joined: May 28, 2006
 A suggestion perhaps from Beyond the Ariel Thread ( see link below)... might want to read what others did with the 416 within that very same thread.

Cheers
FM

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 8, 2014 at 07:12:30
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 If you cross a 15" at 900Hz to a compression driver you get uniform, controlled dispersion from over an octave lower than in your 3way example.

The price you pay for this improved dispersion is increased IMD below 900Hz.

 

agreed, sounds 'good' but runs out of PUNCH... in a two way with a 15... JBL 2360 comes to mind~nT, posted on November 8, 2014 at 13:42:45
Cleantimestream
Audiophile

Posts: 7550
Location: Kentucky
Joined: June 30, 2005
 ~!
The Mind has No Firewall~ U.S. Army War College.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 12, 2014 at 08:55:59
Rpower
Audiophile

Posts: 280
Location: Northeast Georgia
Joined: October 27, 2000
 I completed my 15" two-way project recently with the JBL 2226. Sound is excellent, built like a tank and 97 db efficient. It's what Pi speakers uses in their 15" two way. They can really thunder on rock and blues. Crossed over the 2226 at 1200 hz, the Selenium D220ti horn at 3000 hz.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 12, 2014 at 13:50:55
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2518
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Beyma SM115N maybe?

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 12, 2014 at 16:36:55
amioutaline?
 JBL 2226 with B&C DE-250 compression driver. The Pi Speakers 4 Pi.

Ask the Engineer/Designer

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 12, 2014 at 16:56:41
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 I think your comment of: "All these "full-range" people are in denial. Inevitably, they add a woofer and a tweeter - which makes it a three or four way speaker!" is way off base! I'm one of these "full-range" people as you refer to me, but I'm not in denial at all.

First I know there's no such thing as a "full-range" driver. IMHO not even the Quad or any other ESL speaker is "full-range" these are all extremely "wide-range" drivers, not "full-range" drivers.

Second I suppose in the strictest sense of the word adding any additional drivers makes a speaker a 2, 3 or even 4-way speaker. But I've never seen anyone with a set of 2-way monitors add a subwoofer to their system and then refer to their speakers as 3-ways, have you? So if that's case why would or should someone who's using extremely "wide-range" drivers have to call their speakers 2-ways for adding a subwoofer to cover all frequencies 100Hz and below? What's the difference?

Third I use Dayton PS220-8 extremely "wide-range" drivers with Rispoli-treated cones in Sachiko double-back-loaded horns. These easily cover from 40Hz to 10Khz+ "as-is". I added a pair of Fostex T900a super-tweeters at 10Khz and up to add that last little bit of sparkle & shimmer to cymbals etc. and I'll be adding a subwoofer to cover from either 100Hz or 80Hz and below sometime next year. If you want to refer to them as 3-way speakers I have absolutely no problem with that, just as long as you keep it real & honest with yourself and refer to anyone using 2-way monitors with subs as 3-ways etc. You see I'm not in denial or de-Mississippi or any other river. I and everyone I know that uses extremely "wide-range" drivers knows what they are. You cannot blame those of us who use these drivers because the manufactures and dealers who sell them refer to them as "full-range" drivers. We all know they're actually only extremely "wide-range" drivers. That's precisely why many of as super-tweeters above 10Khz and subs below 100Hz!

I'm listening to: Seven Bridges by Tim Timmermans





Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

Yes, limited to 90° or so., posted on November 13, 2014 at 22:59:48
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 "A 15" has very limited dispersion at 800 Hz."

Yes, limited to 90° or so.

A two-way crossed at 800hz to a 90° horn will work well, but have a touch of FMD (gargle) if you play program material with deep bass (and anything with midrange at the same time).

The link goes to a 12" two-way with a sub, this would be what I would do(but with a PPSL for the sub).

*******************************************************************

Note: I did the network design and provided the drivers for the tops in the auction. They measure about ±1dB from 100hz to 1.2Khz, and ±2dB out to 16Khz. John was locked in for the 2245 for the sub, otherwise he may have gone PPSL for the sub.

 

RE: Yes, limited to 90° or so., posted on November 14, 2014 at 12:05:54
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014
 Thanks to all that provided feedback. The JBL looks interesting. Here is a comment from the literature on the pi speaker's website. "The JBL 2226 can be used for such an implementation. One look at the response curve of a JBL 2226 shows that it generates very little output above 1.6kHz, and the speaker sounds clean up through the midrange. So a tweeter circuit that is designed to bring it online between 1kHz and 2.0kHz blends very well with these woofers – even with no woofer crossover at all. However, it is also evident that there is a slight increase in output just below upper cutoff, and this is reduced by adding inductance to the system."

 

RE: Yes, limited to 90° or so., posted on November 14, 2014 at 15:29:42
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000

The increase in output is on axis only.

Putting an aperature plate in front of the driver (like the newer Eon series) makes it sound much better for a higher crossover point. Years ago I did this with a simple piece of cardboard in front of the driver with a rougn opening of about 80 square inches with the long axis in the vertical (to maximize horizontal dispersion).

 

JBL 2226 response, posted on November 14, 2014 at 23:20:38
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
 photo page07.jpg

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 19, 2014 at 23:31:15
Brian Levy
Audiophile

Posts: 2438
Location: Toronto
Joined: June 5, 2000
 I am ignorant when it comes to speaker design. Always said it was almost more art than engineering or science. So, please understand I am not challenging you.

Why would you go to all the trouble and expense to design a speaker with a 15" woofer with a design goal of only going down to 40hz. That is not much better than the Klipsch Heresy II that is continiously diced for not having any bass. I disagree with that position, btw. Classical designs such as Bozak, Jensen, AR, KLH and many others easily reached into the 30s. Why not design to that range?
Don Brian Levy, J.D.
Toronto ON Canada

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 20, 2014 at 11:42:48
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014



It's the type of alignment that I'm after. I personally value better transient response in the bass. The trade-off is low frequency extension.

I still get good low frequency extension however, don't get me wrong. A tuning frequency of 40Hz will still provide output down to around 27Hz in certain designs. For example my brothers Altec 416 Onkens provide the following response even though they are tuned to 40Hz.

The measurement was taken with the speaker placed in the middle of a large room, so there wasn't much corner gain happening. But you can see it does extend down to 27 Hz.

 

RE: 15" Woofer for 2-way project, posted on November 20, 2014 at 11:45:31
Joseph Crowe
Audiophile

Posts: 53
Location: Ontario
Joined: February 19, 2014



Here is a picture of my brother's Altecs in question.

 

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