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Avantgarde Horns

173.17.89.143
Posted on October 17, 2014 at 19:39:29
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 I am currently using DIY Nelson Pass Amplification (Aleph J clone) and AudioNoteKit EL34 PP amp in my small room.

I am considering the new Avantgarde Uno Fino speakers for my small (9.5x14) moderately treated listening room. I have been in contact with the nice folks in Germany. They hope to have a new distribitor/dealer by the end of October.

Anyways, I would like to listen to some Avantgarde speakers first however. I am sure it will be hard to find the Uno Fino speakers currently due to newness. But, I am open to shows, or any other display options to hear these speakers.

I live on the Gulf Coast of Alabama. 2 hours to New Orleans, 6 to Atlanta (son living in Decatur), 7 hours to Houston (parents and brothers live here, where I grew up).

Anyone have some ideas about where I could try to listen to some horns before biting the bullet?

 

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RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 17, 2014 at 21:31:26
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 You just missed RMAF by a week. It doesn't matter how much money you have, book everything through Priceline three months in advance and go. If no distributor, no Avantegardes at any show I'm sure.

Decatur? You are in so much luck. Marietta Ga is 30 miles from there, and that is where Les Hudson's Wavebox company is. Man you gotta go. They can go toe to toe with Avantgarde. Man you gotta go. You can thank me later.

Jamie


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 18, 2014 at 12:42:23
hottattoo
Audiophile

Posts: 141
Location: New York
Joined: July 30, 2011
 Bones 13:

I have listened to the Duo's and Trio's several times over the years at audio shows and each time I could not listen for more then 15 minutes-- they bothered my ears !!! It was several years ago so I can't speak for their present speaker designs.

Mr.Steady has an excellent point about Les Hudsons speaker designs. I would also check out John Inlow's web site as his products are excellent if you want to go high efficiency ( horns ). Another site to Check is KSC Loudspeakers-He makes custom speakers that will fit your room. If you are bent on hearing the Avantgarde speakers they have a show room in Manhattan (N.Y.C.) IMHO you will get better sound for your money from the names mentioned--plus they are made in America by fellow audio lovers. Good luck.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 18, 2014 at 19:19:00
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4129
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Truth to be told It's hard to listen to any horn system in the show condition for more than 15 minutes .They all suck more or less. You need the leap of faith to purchase horns and personally ,I would go with European speakers since they are more sophisticated and in general better designed.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 19, 2014 at 07:39:16
Kloss
 For that comment your used amp prices increased 25%

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 19, 2014 at 07:48:41
hvbias
Audiophile

Posts: 396
Location: New Hampshire
Joined: December 18, 2005
 Since you can DIY I would look into DIY horns. In my opinion it's possible to build something that far out performs them.

 

LOL! (nt, posted on October 19, 2014 at 08:04:30
genungo
 .

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 19, 2014 at 20:41:23
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4129
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Geez , Kalinowski I didn't mean KSC loudspeaker company which actually represents best in both worlds- the old a new one thanks to enlightened proprietor and an owner ....
Best Regards,
Klamecki
PS . Can I have my discount back now, please :?)

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 20, 2014 at 05:06:34
Kloss
 good one...

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 20, 2014 at 05:11:08
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1989
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
 I agree. Very easy to do better for much less.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 20, 2014 at 16:47:13
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Last week I got a price quote for the PPSLs from Les. $800 for the 12" and $1000 for the 15" per piece. That's pretty darn good for new in the horn world.

My guess from the OP's moniker is that he's a doctor, and has more money than time, and may be looking for horns that fit in with his decor. I just suggested a good one that's within arms reach.

Jamie


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 20, 2014 at 18:43:39
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 My tiny room, coupled with lower wattage amps limits my choices a good bit. I am an Ortho doctor, and have a penchant for nice looking, "solid" stuff.

I am doing some DIY amp and DAC building currently, we downsized a few years back, and I had to give up my wood shop. My one experience building Voight horns was marred by an improperly matched amp, and square, untreated, rug less room.

Speaker building looks to be an iterative process, with its own contruction, and aesthetic challenges. While I would love to try Nelson Pass's OB Lowther with slot loaded woofer, a B4 active crossover, and bi-amping. I just don't have enough space in my room for them to work well.

The Uno Fino was designed to fit the tiny spaces in the Asian world and seemed like they would work well in my space. I'm not settled on anything at this point. My Zu Essence are filling the space well ATM. The monitors, and planars all seem to need more wattage, and more distance to the wall than I have to give, to be the "magical" things they are reputed to be.

I have asked about one speaker, and have expected all sorts of opinions that have nothing to do with my question. They do, however, add to my knowledge and options.

Thanks, and keep the suggestions and opinions coming.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 20, 2014 at 19:15:36
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Oh, you were out there! I was beginning to wonder.

Horns in small rooms is tough, but stick to you high efficiency low wattage guns. It really is the best. When you said Avantgarde I thought you of course meant big.

I hope you do go to Les Hudson's place the next time you visit your son. He's got smaller, and I'm sure very good speakers. You would just have to biamp, because of the inefficient bass.


Jamie


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

Zingalia, posted on October 21, 2014 at 07:58:06
RCA-fan
Manufacturer

Posts: 801
Location: Ontario
Joined: July 26, 2003
 These are quite nice. They measure well and are very nicely designed.


http://www.zingaliacoustics.com/categoria/twenty-evo
best one....
http://www.zingaliacoustics.com/categoria/home-monitorBullet-Tweeters-Speakers-GE-General-Electric-for-Tube-Amp-/201125000366?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2ed3fbf4ae
Prices from £3,250 per pair)
best, bill

 

If I my suggest..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 08:01:36
RCA-fan
Manufacturer

Posts: 801
Location: Ontario
Joined: July 26, 2003
 http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/mini


I hope I am not breaking the rules, but these are my favorite.

 

I second the motion !, posted on October 22, 2014 at 14:20:53
Scott L
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Location: Knoxville
Joined: February 2, 2001
 I also recommend to visit Les Hudson. I heard one of his installs while I was in the greater Atlanta area for Axpona 2011.
I was so impressed that I built a ppsl mid-bass for myself. Admittedly though, I was an "easy sell" because I had already been using reaction-force cancelling for my subwoofer system.
A ppsl, either for mid-bass, or the low frequency section of a well thought out multi-way system, simply has no peer.

Tell Les, Scott & Mark (from Knoxville) say hi

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 22, 2014 at 19:36:24
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Dr Bones,

Read up on the Uno Fino. Probably should have done that before my first post huh?

A couple of points and then I'll leave it alone. The crossover for the mid horn is forward thinking, and shows superb engineering. Letting the driver rolloff form the sole acoustical crossover is not something I see done with horns. PWK did something close to that.

A 300hz crossover is ambitious for the largest of horn systems. I have chased that 300hz wheel of fire, and spent plenty of time and money doing it. I finaly gave up, and settled on 350. It's why I'm taking the time to write this.

The mid horn is a awfully small for 300hz. It's 20" wide and 12" long. I understand that it's using a 5" exit compression driver. That explains how it can be short, but it doesn't account for the small mouth. I've gotten rusty on the finer points of horn theory, but I think it produces a wildly irregular impedence on the low end. BIll could explain the effects of a too small mouth better than me. Everybody on this forum has run a horn too low, had it unload, and go into gross distortion. This horn wouldn't do that, but I think it would do something else.

I could be wrong! Avantgarde goes all the way with horns, and I love that. The Uno Fino shows that. Putting a huge Community PA driver on a litte monkey coffin, Jeez Louise. I bet the Asians will sit up and notice. If that mid horn sounds good then I would say they earned every penny of the 18K, and they would get my vote for best horn speaker company in the universe.


Jamie




Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: I second the motion !, posted on October 22, 2014 at 20:55:13
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Hi Scott,

Thanks for the input on PPSLs. I am so sick of the drive to Atlanta that I may just buy a pair unheard, and go pick them up. I would love to listen to all of his systems.

Jamie


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: I second the motion !, posted on October 23, 2014 at 01:51:35
Scott L
Audiophile

Posts: 353
Location: Knoxville
Joined: February 2, 2001
 Jamie,
The PPSL is only is one part of an entire system. I heard it with a horn used for the upper range section, but that takes a larger type room. I don't know how far of a drive it is for you, but still best to tie in a listening session with one of your
trips for a family visit.
OR... Contact Les ahead of time, discuss your needs and see if maybe he would have something already up and running for you to audition with no commitments to purchase.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 23, 2014 at 07:07:46
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 I have looked into upgrading speakers a few times over the past many years. I keep backing up, as I keep getting either confused, or dis-heartened, and have not pulled the trigger on either DIY something, or buying something.

As you know, most the speakers out there don't fit the low wattage concept, so they are discarded currently. High efficiency speakers are out there, most of the best are large, too large for my room. My current speakers are Zu Essence, which are really pretty good, but I know there are better speakers.

Don't have room either in depth or width for OB designs, which would be the easy thing to play with DIY wise.

Also looking at DeVore Orangutans, but feel they may be too similar to the sound I have now. The Vaughn Audio Triode speaker looks good, I like the idea of the built in Sub, with tunable sub amplifier.

I like the slam and presence of my currently speakers, and feel I would lose that with a 6-8 inch full range single speaker speaker. Another option for me would be to upgrade in the Zu Audio line to either the Soul Supreme, or the Druid V. I am loathe to use any more floor space for subwoofer(s).

I posted picture of my cleaned up room a few months back at AK. Room is 9.5x14 feet. The speakers in the room are 12 inch square, for reference.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 23, 2014 at 13:34:12
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Hi Bones!

I would suggest not buying the Vaughn Triode speakers. Why? Well because I used the Fostex FE208ES-R drivers which are even better than the Fostex FE208E used in those Vaughn's and I removed them immediately upon hearing a pair of Rispoli modified Dayton PS220-8 drivers! There's just so much better, for much less money. Heck have someone build Dick Olsher's Bazzillas for you!

FYI my system ---{you can see all components and the room they're in at the link below}--- uses double-back-loaded horns, with Fostex T900a super tweeters and a 40W/ch SET amp. Bones from what I've read I agree with others here about you either contacting John Kalinowski of KCS Speakers ---{John Kalinowski I believe will custom build a speaker for you}--- or Les Hudsen of Waveboxes. The Avantgardes are colored with that "horn sound" that I'm sure within 3 months will drive you crazy.

Personally if I were you, I'd be looking at the Odeon La Traviata in the Audio Trader section of Audio Asylum. They're $14K new, only $4.9K now, don't sound like horns, yet are! So you get the sensitivity and dynamics of horns without the horn coloration heard in the Avantgardes and these aren't huge! So they should easily fit in your room. I'd buy them over the Vaughn Triodes any day!

I'm listening to: Much Afraid by Jars of Clay




Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

the ah horns..........., posted on October 23, 2014 at 16:19:02
Norman Bates
Audiophile

Posts: 563
Joined: August 9, 2002
 I can't find much on them (the ah! horns).

I assume some of the OMA speakers (monarch, mini) are using one of your horns, I'm sure it sounds excellent.


Norman

 

RE: I second the motion !, posted on October 23, 2014 at 17:40:11
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Hey Scott,

Thankfully my trips to Atlanta are over. Long distance relationships are tough. Heck, I had to drive 250 miles to pick up my LaScalas, and the seller was meeting me half way.

The sad fact is I never sell anything. I could build three different horn systems for these bins, and I have the active crossovers to split the signal any way I want. I just received after a two year wait the Red Spade PSE-144 "Synergy" style horns. It's one reason the ppsl will have to wait. I only make one change at a time, and then I have to listen a good long while to grok it. They will be over LaScala bass bins to start, but I have hopes about a matchup with the ppsl, and that it might be a very advanced three way horn system. So advanced in fact, that I could finish with horns for a long while. I love my horn system the way it is right now. I could live with it forever as it stands without the pse-144. It sounds "spooky real" at times. I wonder why I'm messing with it. Oh yeah, I got hooked into a two year wait. I'm not complaining.

The room is big enough. They are right in the living room. No TV in the living room! 24' x 18' with 18' ceilings, and the room opens up to the dining room and kitchen, so maybe even bigger. Dr Bones'es room treatments shame me. Hey, it's on the to-do list.

The ppsls would probably be a special order, in that I would want them in the highest impedence I could get, 8ohm or 16 if possible.

An earlier poster said you have to buy horns on faith, even if your hear them first. I think he's right.

Jamie





Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 23, 2014 at 19:34:26
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Bones,

The way you feel about upgrading your speakers is the same exact way I feel about hi-rez digital audio. I come back from a show all pumped up, look on HDTracks and find -- Hotel California. DVD-As are 25-30 bucks on ebay. I'll wait a little longer thank you. Maybe Ole Neil will put 'er down with PONGO.

I'm sorry I couldn't see any picture on your link with two computers and an iphone, so I'm not going to talk out of my butt.

I heard your Zu speakers at RMAF. They sounded good, but they sound like all direct radiators.

IMHO a 10x14 room is doable for a real horn system. Not pretty, and not ideal, but better than direct radiators, or at least worth a try. It sounds like most of your speakers, even the Voight pipe, are of a type. Do you have any experience with a true high efficiency design like the LaScala? I'm of the opinion that if you can't run you speaker with a 2A3 SET amp, or at worst a 300b, or at worst just the sub component like the bass bin, then you need other speakers. I practice what I preach too. If those PPSLs won't run on a 2a3 or 300b they won't stay, but of course they have the same efficiency as the LS bassbin, 104db. That's the minimum my friend for lifelike and low distortion sound.

Contemplate whether 24"x24" really is too big for the room, or if you just think it's too big for the room. Would you have more room if you took all the subs out?

If it turns out that indeed it is too big, then Les has a compact TL bassbin with an appropriately sized horn, front loaded onto a direct radiator. I like compression drivers. I'm sure it's a small fraction of the cost of the Avantgarde. Just get one and play with it. Don't sweat it if you take a $500 bath if you resell it. Plus it's close to where your son lives.

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

ah horns..........., posted on October 24, 2014 at 07:18:57
RCA-fan
Manufacturer

Posts: 801
Location: Ontario
Joined: July 26, 2003
 Thank you for your kind words.
The Acoustic Horn Co. is no longer in operation.
I am doing mainly consulting work.


Best, bill

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 24, 2014 at 09:37:03
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 I couldn't agree with you more. I heard the Avantgardes in Las Vegas and I wasn't at all impressed. Plus they rang like crazy. For a fraction of $$ one could have a far superior DIY horn system, like Edgarhorn, for example.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 24, 2014 at 09:54:36
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002



I built this near field system a few years ago. It's perfect for small rooms. And it wasn't really that hard to built. The 470Hz was turned for me by a local craftsman. The tweeter is Fostex 925A. I'm sure Les or somebody else with more woodworking skill could make it even prettier.

 

RE: Avantgardes "... rang like crazy."?, posted on October 24, 2014 at 12:48:03
genungo
 I've never heard that one before.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 24, 2014 at 19:30:42
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Edward out of curiosity just what was the total cost ---{by total I mean the drivers, the wood, the cost to build the cabinets and the crossover parts cost}--- of assembling these speakers? Oh yeah by the way, are those Edgar Horn cabinets for the woofers?

I'm listening to: Spirit of The Wood by Glen Helgeson





Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 07:10:17
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Eduard G Robinson,

THAT IS A GREAT FREAKING IDEA! Turning a straight mid/bass horn on it's mouth with a waveguide at the bottom. It's like a get-set-go J horn! Who was your inspiration, Moth Audio or Bruce Edgar? Did you measure it?

I would love to hear the horn masters at this site give their opinion of this arrangement. It's too many names to write. Steve Schell checks in from time to time. Your horn deserves it's own thread.

Give it a name, and I will start a thread. If that's cool with you.

Thanks,

Jamie

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 13:58:11
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 Used Fostex 925A - about $400, used EVM 12B - about $300, used TAD 2001 - about $600 (baught'm a long time ago) round 470 Hz horns - local craftsman turned them for me for about $600. The rest was done by me. Plywood/wiggle board - about $250.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 14:07:09
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 Almost everything I know about horns came from rubbing elbows with Dr. Bruce Edgar whom I've been helping on many projects over the last, uh, quarter of a century vor so. The best part of the floor firing horn (besides of the sheer simplicity of constraction) is the fact that the entire space on all three open sides is the mouth area. This allows for a relatively small overall size. I know Steve very well and he's a great guy who follows his own passion with Cogent horns. A name? Well, never thought of one...uh...call it a straight horn if you must. Any gay folks have any objections?

 

RE: Avantgardes "... rang like crazy."?, posted on October 25, 2014 at 14:10:53
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 I heard the Avantgardes in Las Vegas a few years ago. And they rang like crazy. And no, I wasn't drunk and I don't suffer from high blood presure. I thought to myself that at that price point folks at Avantagarde could've afforded making the horns a little thicker or dumping them with some compund, or something.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 16:14:42
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 I second your impressions re the Avantgardes. I don't know what it is, but after a few minutes I wanted to leave. They are fatiguing.

 

JBL Synthesis Array series , posted on October 25, 2014 at 19:25:10
genungo
 The JBL Synthesis Array with it's verticalized horn might work well in a room like yours. Stereophile favorably reviewed the 1400 a while ago, but the 800 or 1000 might work better in a room your size. I think there is a dealer in the Atlanta area, if you are going through Georgia why not have a listen?

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 20:25:52
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 Very nice Eduard! I have a pair of Fostex T900a's. My friend Paul B. is reconditioning a pair of TAD 2001's back to "better-than-new" status as a trade for two pairs of drivers I have that he really wants. And I have a sweet pair of 18" JBL 2241-H drivers just waiting for a project. So hopefully on day soon...

I'm listening to: Rising Current by Glen Helgeson






Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 20:34:42
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 I'll gladly share the plans with anybody interested or sell/trade this system without the drivers.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 20:57:43
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Mr G,

If you check in on Dr. Edgar regular, then I'm sure everyone on this forum would thank you, and I thank you.

Mr Steady


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 25, 2014 at 22:00:58
EduardG
Audiophile

Posts: 284
Location: So. Cal
Joined: May 30, 2002
 Bruce's been mostly in and out of the hospital lately. What's so amazing is that while clearly sick and frail he maintains a remarkable esprit de corps and laughs and jokes all the time.

 

RE: Zero1, posted on October 25, 2014 at 23:48:50
smart845
Audiophile

Posts: 668
Location: East london
Joined: May 24, 2000
 Forget the negative comments as in my experience the AGs don't ring when set up properly as it is normally the amp that causes the ringing.
Plus, they do disappear like a mini monitor again when setup properly.

For a small room I'd choose the new Zero1. It has fantastic reviews, has DSP built in and keeps the drama of the bigger horns. Not sure why AG need the fino/uno in their range anymore.

So you have your work cut out but it's going to be fun. We would all be interested in the outcome whichever way.

Cheers

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 26, 2014 at 00:49:40
hollowboy
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Location: Melbourne
Joined: June 26, 2007
 A 5" exit compression driver would be crazy expensive, I think. I'd also expect a high end compression driver to be a little more sensitive than 104dB. By comparison, the TAD 4001 is small (voice coil "only" 100mm), gives 110 dB/watt and cost is $6000 a pair.

"The M1 is a 130 mm (5 in) midrange driver with a 75 mm (3 inch)
dome especially developed for the Uno and optimized for a large,
linear excursion"

This sounds like a well chosen / built conventional driver rather than a compression driver. The pic on the brochure looks like a regular driver.

Not that this is a bad thing - I'm thinking of making something similar myself*. When I punch the data for a normal pro 4.5" driver on a Uno Fino sized horn into Hornresp, I get something that models well - no ripple. It needs 3.5 watts to hit 104dB and -3dB point is 340Hz. 1mm displacement gives 113dB.

The Uno Fino claims better efficiency and a lower rolloff, but these claims seem within reason, given that their driver is specialised for horn loading, whereas I was modelling a standard driver.

*have ordered but not yet received the drivers, so still at the modelling / theory stage.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 26, 2014 at 07:40:42
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014



I think you may be right about the driver. The "large linear excursion" phrase is the tip-off. The efficiency comparison is also correct.

AG is well known for using the Community M4 driver, which is a 4" exit CD that uses a carbon fiber diaphragm. I saw 5" and CF and figured it was a modified M4. I priced the M4 years ago, and it was not prohibatively expensive. Half or less the price of your cited TADs. Problem is nobody but community makes a horn for a four inch comp driver. Hope you like their horn. That's where AG comes in. The M4 has a FR of 200hz to 4000hz. There is a lot I could do with that if I was a horn designer/manufacturer, which I'm not, and never will be. I guess I assembled my own system.

Many times I wish I had learned HornResp. McBean must be a bloody genius. The Spherical horn profile happens to be my favorite. It's in my system now, because it sounded the best. It is a very capable profile. It does a lot of things right like loads well, but isn't too long. I will take your word about your sims. It does surprise me. 300hz is low. It's 45"/1.15m wide. That's big. On the wavebox site you see horns that are at least 36" wide with 10" drivers.

I'm being serious. If the AG 5" 300hz horn sounds good and meets it's advertising, then brother we all need one. You just couldn't copy the horn. Your right, it's the custom driver too. Having said that, your sim resulted in 340hz. I can tell you from persoanl experience, that the difference in the mid horn world between 300 and 340hz is all the difference in the world.

Check out the picture. It was just released. Autotech is real good at cutting down their horns. 2,4,4.5,5,bigger. It's all possible. If you were Johnny on the spot you could sim it, and tell us how short the horn would become, or we could just ask Jacek. I would love to see that green and red soundwave plot Hornresp generates. The one that shows the SW leaving the mouth. I just noticed. This horn is only 31" wide. That seems small. Hmmm.

The one thing I don't get about AG, and the one thing I have against them is; Why did they keep the stock carbon fiber diaphragm on the M4? Community makes mylar diaphragms for their other drivers. AG has the money to make a mylar diaphragm happen. I would bet my system it would make it sound better. Also, if AG did sell this horn and driver standalone, I wouldn't pay their price.

Jamie



Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Zero1, posted on October 26, 2014 at 19:55:00
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 zero 1 speakers have included DAC and amp, not really what I'm looking for. The JBL Synthesis speakers are all 89-90db, and not really compatible with my gear. They do look cool.

I made another pass at Altec 604s, more likely the GPA 604s. Beautiful speakers, but the boxes needed are too large.

Perhaps I can get a chance in the winter/spring to go listen to some stuff.

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts.

 

RE: JBL Synthesis Array series, posted on October 27, 2014 at 13:20:07
genungo
 Your amp must be stable to 4 ohms but they don't require a lot of power.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 28, 2014 at 03:29:39
hollowboy
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Location: Melbourne
Joined: June 26, 2007

I didn't consider the Community M4. It's an interesting driver.

"I'm being serious. If the AG 5" 300hz horn sounds good and meets it's advertising, then brother we all need one. You just couldn't copy the horn. Your right, it's the custom driver too"

Playing in hornresp, I can't seem to get any regular driver to model to 104dB/watt in free space. If I model half space, then I can sim 104dB to 300Hz in a AG sized horn - AG is possibly including some room gain in their specification. That would be reasonable for a speaker intended for small rooms / near wall placement.

The image is one simulation of the B&C 8PE21 8" Midrange Speaker, in free space, 10watts input, crossover as shown. That looks like acceptable ripple, ~107dB output, -3dB at 300Hz, from 0.25mm of cone movement. It shows HF rolloff early, but that's a limitation of hornresp, as discussed in the link

I'm sure some horn genius could tweak it to perform better than that.

My point: 300hz from a modest horn doesn't seem like an impossible goal, or one that requires a magic driver. If it were me, I'd still build it a bit bigger though :)

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 28, 2014 at 18:16:44
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Ah, it's always the input parameters that stop me dead in my tracks. LOL

Hollowboy, you the man. Do you have a rule of thumb for how much bandwith to add on the high end? It must have been buried deep in that article.

Damn right it's an interesting driver. There is nothing else like it. Instead of simming 110db at 10 watts, it would be milliwatts.

It's a good thing HR models the low end, because that is where action is. People always worry about the highs in horns, but the bottom is critical.

Can't make the numbers match? Everybody always tries to fudge the low end with horns. You and me too. It's universal. All speaker manufacturers fudge their efficiency numbers. It's universal. It's only the hobbyist who will put up with the huge weight/size gain from not fudging, but that's why our systems sound better too. Sometimes.

"My point: 300hz from a modest horn doesn't seem like an impossible goal, or one that requires a magic driver. "

Modest is in the eye of the beholder isn't it? More seriously, I accept your point. It's that you just don't see any. In fact I would have to say the AG may be the first. That's why I'm sceptical. Doesn't mean it's not true.

I hope you create the horn you want.

Jamie




Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 28, 2014 at 18:33:11
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 For the benefit of the reader;

300hz being important, because Bell Labs said it was.


Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on October 29, 2014 at 23:00:10
hollowboy
Audiophile

Posts: 263
Location: Melbourne
Joined: June 26, 2007
 A driver that could possibly be used to clone the AG horn: RCF MR8N301

Their spec sheet shows 107dB / watt* on a horn, bandwidth of ~500Hz to 3kHz.

Their horn is tiny (very short, 35*40cm mouth) for close spacing in arrays. An bigger horn (an AG sized mouth, but shorter) should extend the LF down to the driver's Fs (with -3dB just under 300Hz).

The RCF phase plug seems to be built for efficiency over bandwidth (like type 2 in the link). Type 1 or 3 from the link might extend the HF a little, but possibly not worth the effort as 3.5kHz looks like the most you'd ever get.

*when I model the raw driver (half space, as they measure in a "hemispherical" environment), I get the same 102dB efficiency at max, but I get less gain for the horn. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

 

RE: Avantgarde Horns, posted on November 3, 2014 at 15:36:42
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Hey HB,

I wrote you a nice reply Friday, and hit the wrong button and lost it all. Let me get over being sick with myself, and I reconstruct it.

J

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

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