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Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala

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Posted on August 19, 2014 at 10:26:36
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Hello fellow members,

my system is based on modded Klipsch LaScala loudspeakers.

They make use of ALK Engineering "universal" replacement crossover for the Klipsch Heritage series.
It's a three way, constant impedance network, 6dB/oct at 400Hz and 6000Hz.

I was wondering what kind of improvement - or possible issues or decrease in sound quality- I could expect by bi-amping using the following scheme:

output (1) of the SAE Mk 1B preamp >> directly to the Sony TA-N86B class A amp driving the mid-high section, trough the speaker's passive crossover (I would put a resistor across the network's woofer taps to simulate the presence of the woofer and keep the constant impedance network OK.)

output (2) of the preamp driving an SAE Mk XXXIB amp trough an active crossover, low pass at 400Hz/ 6db (or steeper...)

The reason why I'd like to try this is because I like both amps for different reasons, and would like to be able to combine them in my system instead of always having to choose wich one is gonna stay in the system... the Sony being liguid and transparent and clean, and the SAE having drive and bass slam way above its modest power rating would suggest. But I wonder if, trying to use both amps, I would lose the coherency I have now...

also, what kind of active crossover, on a small budget, could be recommanded for this application?

thanks!

 

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RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 11:48:42
zobsky
Audiophile

Posts: 569
Location: dallas, tx
Joined: June 11, 2005
 MiniDsp

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 12:04:34
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 you will find more people with direct experience with this over at the Klipsch dot com forum in the tech and mod section. the other5 thing that you might want to investigate is turning your LaScala into two ways with a much better horn and driver. best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 12:54:35
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Thanks for your advice.

Actually I used to visit the Klipsch forums very often in the past, that's where I learned about the mods I have done to my LaScalas.

I replaced the K400 horn with a much better sounding EV SM120A horn, and the T35 (K77) tweeter with a Beyma CP25.

Improvements were huge.

Going for a two-way would require a much more expensive driver and I don't have the cash for that... very few drivers can be crossed as low as 400Hz/6dB... those that can cost an arm and a leg. The K55V driver, with the "bug grill" removed and loaded by the EV horn, sounds very good to me :)

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 13:20:28
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7296
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 A line-level crossover will reduce the bass going through the mid/high amp, which will probably make the biggest difference. It does not have to be active; a 6dB/octave line-level crossover is easily implemented with just a few resistors and capacitors. It should be equally easy to modify the existing crossover to function only between the mid and high frequency transducers, by disconnecting and/or shorting a couple components.

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 15:13:28
moray james
Manufacturer

Posts: 1599
Location: Calgary on the Bow
Joined: May 19, 2002
 I am using a pair of EV DH1A which I bought used but in excellent condition for only $260.00 shipping included. I cannot imagine a better driver. I think that a roll off of 6db per octave at 400Hz is on the slow side even for the mighty DH1A. I would double the rate. Level of playback and your tolerance for distortion will be the determining factor. There are some good deals on used large format JBL drivers. I have seen very good condition JBL 435 with 3" Be diaphragms for $700.00 the pair and JBL large format drivers with 4" diaphragms for $500.00 up to $900.00 depending upon model and diaphragm (used). So you don't have to spend a lot, there are options. Size of horn is more often the limiting factor for many folks. The EV White Whale could be used to below 400 Hz with a DH1A or a Klipsch K402. Claude J has his set of K402 up for sale right now why not ask him what he wants for them? Very nice horn, Good luck and best regards Moray James.
moray james

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 19, 2014 at 18:21:42
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Greetings Asylees!

My name is Jamie, and they just did let me through the gates.

Hi KanedaK. You ended ten years of lurking, well you, and the outside world. I've been using LaScala bass bins as the basis of a horn system all of those ten years.

You got some great responses from the asylees. I'd like to expand on one from Paul, and give you a budget recommendation. Paul wrote about using your ALK Universal crossover to split the mids to highs. It's even easier than he describes, because the Univ was designed to do that. IIRC it's changing a couple of jumper strips, and soldering one joint, or using a spade connector, not sure, but not too hard. The manual is on his website.

That leaves the active crossover. MinDSP is affordible and capable, but I haven't used it, so I can't say more. You didn't mention your source, but if it's CD and you use the vintage SS, then it might work well for you. A 2 way MDSP is so cheap you should order one today just to play with it.

My budget recommendation is a Marchand XM-9. It uses FET op amps, and of course it's analog. To get it cheap you just have to haunt the sites till one comes up. I bought an eight year old one on the gon for 160US and it's still working, and it sounds excellent. This is coming from one of those Vinyl SET Horn audio-maniacs. I would swap it in right now.

Disclaimer; Let the buyer beware when it comes to used Marchand, and or, amateur assembled units. Don't ask me how I know.

Going 2 way active on the bass bins really accomplishes a lot for sound quality. You should try it. It's a perfectly acceptable way to spend your next couple hundred in audio funds.


Further upgrades may however lead to madness.

Jamie

Jamie








Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 20, 2014 at 03:54:59
KanedaK
Audiophile

Posts: 2519
Location: Brussels
Joined: April 27, 2010
 Hi Jamie, and welcome to the forum!

Your first contribution was greatly appreciated, thank you!
I will investigate about that MiniDSP, it seems like a lot of fun!

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 20, 2014 at 20:46:07
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Hi KanedaK,

Thank you for the kind words.

I tell you this because it could save you a good deal of money in the future. Biamping get's you 80% of triamping. You can have a pretty top notch crossover system that you could live with for years. You already have half of it. Then you you are free to make the next upgrade you want.

Here is some short and sweet advice since you like your LaScalas.

Keep it three way. You can save two way for later, much later. It's an irritating, maddening fact that the folded W bass bin doesn't go that high, and two way compression drivers don't go that low. Two way horns are a subject unto themselves.

When you do decide to upgrade your mid horn and driver the big choice is whether you want a wider dispersion with a loss in detail, or a round horn that has a narrow dispersion and, well, damn near perfect sound. Then you find a horn and driver that goes down to 350-400hz. That is a subject unto itself also.

One more thing. These folded W bass bins are Mr. Klipsch's bass bins. The harder I tried to improve the crossover points for various reasons, the more I see that Mr. K made superb choices given the physics and economics of it all. Don't fight Mr. Klipsch. You may have to drop the high pass a smidge given your horn/driver combo, but nothing else. IMHO if and when a horn/driver can pull off 400 to 6000hz well, then the LS is like a full range point source speaker, with maybe a sub underneath.

Hope you have fun on your journey. Fully front loaded horn three way speakers are worth all the trouble.

I'm waiting on my Red Spade PSE-144 multiple reentrant, Danley style, horn to come in. I'll check in once I've given it a good long listen. We'll see if the future is here now.

I've enjoyed our stroll on the grounds.
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Bi-amping Klipsch LaScala, posted on August 31, 2014 at 08:16:41
claudej1@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 817
Location: Detroit
Joined: August 17, 2007
 Waste of time and money, UNLESS you are doing active on the woofer and can knock down the 140 Hz. peak by about 7 db. Roy Delgado, Chief Engineer at Klipsch Cinema division, does this when using a LaScala bass bin with a large format top end in a 2-way active setup.

 

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