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RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?

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Posted on July 27, 2014 at 02:51:41
ceriatone@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 170
Joined: August 19, 2008
 Hello,

I need your help, experienced people.

I got an offer to buy LC-1B. Someone found it lying in the basement for 30 years, took it out, check the prices on Ebay and voila, I can have them for about $2000 a pair.

Condition is as follows: cones are good, there's no discoloration, humps are fine except that 2-3 has a minor dent on top.

The tweeters were serviced, I think the coils were burned.

There is no butterflies and one central (axial) tweeter screw (to attach a butterfly) is missing.

One lied upside down so the main cone sagged 1mm (approx). Both cones are stiff, though surrounds (fabric, I think) is a bit dry.

Foam rings - one fine, one has a slight rot at one place.

We listened them boxless - they sound just fine. Maybe the highs are a bit unsophisticated, I don't know. Mids are glorious. I can't talk about bass, there was not box.

So, what are the questions.

I don't care about butterflies, that can be made (I think) and it can play without it.

A cone sag could be (I think) addressed with adding a weight for some time. Maybe, I dunno.

What is there to be done with surrounds? They are not too elastic but again, no damage except for drying. Should I seek for something to put on?

Anyone remember the highs quality, could it be that that the servicing (recoiling) made them sounding less subtle? Though someone had a comment that the highs were not the best strength of the original either.... Like cymbals sounding a bit thicker than they are, you know that.

More or less, that's it. For the same money I can buy a perfect Tannoy Arden with HPD 385, but obviously a curiosity of owning something as rare and unobtainable is working in my head.

I can also get the original RCA corner cabs for about $300, though they need work.

I lived with multi way horns last decade but kind got a little tired of too complicated crossovers etc. Would love something more realistic and more emotional - and my room is not very big so these would fit.

But the main concern is if I gonna spend next years trying to service something that can't be serviced and if they gonna ultimately fall apart... AFAIK no support for these, or am I wrong?

Also, is a ferrite magnet version in described condition worth $2000 today? The price is firm, no bargain. Take it or leave it.

Advices please.

 

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RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 02:46:21
ceriatone@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 170
Joined: August 19, 2008
 Anyone?

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on July 28, 2014 at 06:54:00
Kloss



I had multiple RCA LC 1A I searched for years to try to find a pair that matched in spec and were not in need of restoration. I gave up after 6 years sold the others kept my best and made one heck of a center channel out of it. They do sound wonderful but good luck finding ones in good condition.

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on July 29, 2014 at 20:43:06
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
 There are a few things to look for. I'll try to address your concerns in the order you present them.

Minor dents in the 'camel bumps' are nothing to concern yourself with. Almost all examples have this and it doesn't affect the sound enough to detect.

Very common for the tweeter coils to be burned, but if the tweeters were serviced using original RCA replacement parts, that's fine. If some other off-the-shelf replacement tweeters were used, that's probably bad, as it's unlikely they will integrate properly, even assuming they fit physically.

Yes, they will play without the butterfly HF diffusers, but the HF output and distribution will be off--less than optimal.

BTW, if by 'missing' you mean that the tweeter/butterfly screw is merely absent (i.e. that there's provision for it, it's just not there), that's no big deal--a suitable replacement can be sourced. (Note that this screw in the center of the tweeter also serves to fix the centering of the tweeter coil, so the speaker should not be operated without it.) But if by 'missing' you mean that there isn't even a hole in the center of the tweeter to mount the butterfly, then you definitely have aftermarket tweeters of some kind. This will seriously affect the sound of the speaker, and reduce their value considerably.

Not sure what you mean by 'cone sagged'. The cone shouldn't migrate, regardless of the position in which the speaker was stored. If the voice coil isn't rubbing, it should be OK. Cones should be stiff. Surrounds are drier than most Altec I've encountered, but should still be somewhat pliable.

Wasn't aware that the LC-1B version had the foam rings. Thought that was only the 'A' version. In any case, the treated cloth surround has nearly the same effect as the old foam rings. They were there to damp cone edge resonances.

Not sure I'd describe the highs an 'unsophisticated'. Subtle, nuanced maybe. Certainly not 'in your face', but quite nice and 'correct' sounding when the speakers are in proper working condition.

If the surrounds are really dried out, you could try re-applying surround doping. It's the same stuff that Altec used (only if you have LC-1B--the 'A' version used something different). There's a guy on eBay selling it. I might thin it a bit for the RCA's, rather than gooping in on.

Most LC-1B came in either the LS-11A Olson Floor Cabinet (MI-11415-A) or the LS-1A Wall Speaker Housing (MI-11406-B). Neither is specifically intended for room corner placement, so I'm not sure which you have access to. The LS-1A is intended for mounting at the junction of the wall and ceiling, usually in a control room at a recording studio, above the mixing console. The LS-11A is a large floor standing enclosure that could be placed in a corner, but was not designed specifically for that purpose. The LS-11A is a better sounding box in my experience. If the cabinets that are available are neither of these, please advise as to what they are (or post a photo).

Your concern re: servicing something unserviceable is a valid one. Spare parts for these speakers are virtually unobtainable. There are a few here and there, but I wouldn't count on getting hold of any of them. On the other hand, if the speakers are in relatively good operating condition when you get them, you should be able to get many years enjoyment out of them, barring abuse, and you can always sell them for what you'll have into them.

Lastly, all LC-1A and LC-1B had Alnico magnets.





 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 1, 2014 at 23:14:41
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Leave it -sonically, it's a hyped junk really. For $2k you can buy some nice drivers. My friend has a pair and I would not want them for free. Magnavox console speaker's set is a High-End compared to that crap..

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 7, 2014 at 06:57:43
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
 My experience with LC-1A's (and Magnavox consoles, BTW) differs from yours significantly.

Option 1: you are a very funny person. Joke appreciated.
Option 2: your friend's speakers are damaged or improperly driven.
Option 3: you are (sadly) deaf.
Option 4: you have an extraordinary Magnavox console.

lol ;-)

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 7, 2014 at 08:34:35
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Well
I could agree on all points regarding my abilities since nobody's perfect.
I can also suspect the same faults regarding your abilities.
Regarding my friends RCA drivers , one is in original condition , the other had refurbished tweeter. They were driven by -Eliano designed 300B PP with partial silver secondaries , Sophia Electric 300B with their better transformers , Art Audio PX25 and Art Audio Diavolo . Preamp was Emotive Poet or Sira and Metrum Dac. RCA's were in ~4-6 cu ft boxes. He also put them for fun in Altec A7 cab. They were in the company of PHY 12" , Lowther DX4 in Azura horns , and new Lowther PMA5 with silver vc.
Those RCA's are so bad that they must appeal to folks who enjoy small WE 755a in OB in cathedral sized room.
Seriously , Magnavox better set with 15" big alnico magnet and funny horn in OB is light years ahead as bad as it objectively is.
My friend was laughing at fools who buy those drivers for big money and than spread the mantra trough the net in order to preserve the value of this junk encouraging one another.
Now, If I hear a pair in a system, which will make me change my opinion
I will happily post here that I'm a deaf fool and was sorrily mistaken and will send six pack of best Polish beer to every offended RCA owner on this forum.
PS,. I'd keep quiet about it , but the forum is boring these days. And even Lynn Olson wrote after last RMAF that after all "hoopla" surrounding those drivers he could not believe how bad they sounded even though all grandpas (I.e the age group most active in the hobby) visiting that room were gobsmacked seeing the artifact from their long forgotten prime time.
Best Regards , W

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 7, 2014 at 22:09:23
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
 Glad to liven things up around here. All in good fun, of course.

I stand by the claim that my LC-1A's sound better than my mother's Magnavox console. Perhaps your mother bought a more extravagant console.

Unless refurbished with the correct RCA parts, you're not hearing what Olson intended, nor what the speaker is capable of.

LC-1A's have no place in an A-7 cabinet. Can't see how that would even be fun.

Your chosen amplification should be suitable, though I can't see why anyone would spend so much for hype.

Modern Lowthers don't hold a candle to well preserved vintage (1950's-1960's) units. I've sold off all my modern production Lowthers in favor of 'proper' older ones. Silver VC's only slow them down.

No one listens to 755A/OB in a cathedral. Totally unsuitable for large rooms/high volume.

I am not an offended RCA owner, BTW. Not so thin skinned. I have LC-1A's and enjoy them, but I have many speakers here, each with their virtues.

No speaker, and no listener, is perfect. Just trying to have some fun.

'best Polish beer'?

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 7, 2014 at 23:50:38
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Well , I hope to hear well sorted out pair in good dedicated cabs.Maybe I will change my mind. Also, next time I visit my buddy with RCA's I will see how optimized the cabs really are to those drivers. Last couple of times they sounded so bad that I didn't even want to bother. Midrange hump and splashy top end with flat two dimensional sound it was all the speakers could muster.
I can easily believe that vintage Lowthers sound better than modern units.
The quality of fibers they made the cones from was likely better and listening panel had generally better taste in music and was actually familiar with the sound of acoustic instruments.It's almost universally true if it comes to most vintage drivers although most of them can't be used as intended in modern system -they are just too restricted.
I hope that you use your Lowthers correctly meaning no BLH and no full-range paranoia just an extended wide band driver with matched midbass and bass driver and well sorted tweeter and preferably bi-tri amped. This is how my friend is using his Lowthers although with big Azura horn it's still a rotten compromise and a dead end of a sort. Thats why I gave up mine.
I didn't mean Magnavox Console as such but the drivers from better Magnavox consoles. The ones with Jensen 15" and big (relatively) alnico magnet -a direct WE descendent and small alnico Jensen horn crossed in at 1.2-1.5K Hz in rigid , solid OB with correct amp and a sub can be very pleasant sounding really for almost nothing.
I'm occupied recently by Tannoy 10" Red mounted in approx 2cuft closed box. Well , it doesn't work with regular 2-8W SET unfortunately , also with modern PP is so so. I hooked up "restored" LEAK TL 50 (meaning NOS vitQ caps , AB resistors and related vintage "junk" parts to preserve original voicing and value since I intend to sell it -it's not that good)and together they sound kinda wonderful on simple music .Now , I don't believe in synergy - It's all bollocks and junk compensating shortcomings of another junk but it works to extent.
Regards, W

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 8, 2014 at 19:52:14
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
 Hearing a good, properly sorted pair might change your mind. Or maybe not. Mostly depends on your expectations. Like all speakers, the LC-1A's aren't perfect, but what they do well, they do very well.

Best to optimize your listening around a speaker's strengths, instead of 'forcing' a speaker to meet your expectations if it wasn't designed to do whatever it is you value sonically. Playing vintage speakers too loudly is a common modern audiophile habit, and often leads to disappointment. If a particular speaker doesn't suit your listening habits, source material, room, or electronics, get a different speaker, but don't damn the speaker just because it doesn't suit your application for it.

As regards Lowthers, I use mine what I'd consider to be 'correctly', which means exactly as intended by their designer--in vintage original, Lowther-built cabinets, running full range. (What you describe as 'correctly, I'd say is better described as 'experimentally', and I'm not surprised it has led to failure.) I can appreciate what Lowthers do well in their original configuration, without expecting that they should do 'everything'. With some recordings, on certain evenings, they are perfect for me. At other times, with other music, I switch to something else.

Yes, there were Jensen-sourced drivers in some older Magnavox units, and some are quite good. Not exactly sure it's correct to call them a Western Electric descendant, though, since WECo sourced their woofers from Jensen in the early days (just as Magnavox did).

The Tannoy 10's have always interested me. I had some Red 12's for a while, and they had virtues, but they have moved on. A 2 cu. ft. sealed box seems a poor match for a Tannoy, however.

Synergy is real. It's a bit harsh to call it 'all bollocks and junk compensating shortcomings of another junk'. You begin to sound like Romy. I prefer to think of it another way: No amplifier is perfect; no speaker is perfect; no recording; no preamp; no cartridge. If you are trying to build your audio system around finding perfect components, then assembling them into a perfect system, you are doomed to failure.

A useful analogy might be cars. There is no perfect car. Some do certain things very well, but are useless for other things. Your new Ferrari may be very fast, but it's useless for transporting lumber. A Smart car may get great gas mileage, but you can't fit the whole family in there. If you try to get a car that does everything well, you end up with something soulless and boring, like a Subaru Outback--decent mileage, decent space inside, reasonably reliable, has moderate gumption--but excels at nothing. Better to have a stable of cars, each suited to its purpose, and utilize them accordingly. I tend to do the same with speakers, amps, etc.

Best,

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 8, 2014 at 21:40:04
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 Actually , I'm quite easy to please. If the product is half good and doesn't cost $40k I hardly ever have a problem with it. Not that I don't post some nasty things from time to time but really, if those RCA's I heard just made some music , had proper tonal balance and resemblance of high quality units it would be alright
It exactly mirrors what Lynn Olson wrote about his experience with the speakers. I hope he will forgive me that I'll bring it up here.

"...I heard the elusive RCA LC-1A's, which I've wanted to hear for more than thirty years. The pair at the 2013 RMAF were in the appropriate prism-edged H.F. Olson (no relation) cabinets, and were powered with custom-made 50 DHT amplifiers. Quite beautiful, really, with the distinctive LC-1A cone with the famous little cones on them, as well as the "twiddler" tweeter. The front end was a suitably exotic turntable with the Frank Schroeder arm, and a Peter Ledermann cartridge. All quite impressive; no CD source or music server on this system, thank you very much. High expectations (I took the center seat in front, looking forward to the legendary RCA "Living Stereo" sound that I knew from many of my favorite recordings).

After all this buildup, what did the RCA LC-1A's sound like?

Ah well. Very tipped-up and out of balance. The bass in the 100~200 Hz range was at least 5 dB down from the 2~5 kHz range, and the treble, although not awful, was fairly ragged and somewhat distorted. The overall impression was very thin and threadbare sound, and high dynamics were not in evidence, despite the 15" driver. The imaging was non-existent, just a blur between the two drivers, with almost no directionality.

Gary Pimm, who visited many of the rooms on that day with me, was appalled. I was surprised, having read about the LC-1A for so many years, and having the utmost respect for H.F. Olson's work on microphones, loudspeakers, and acoustics.

After leaving the room, another show-goer mentioned that a pair of LC-1A's he knew of sounded considerably better than the pair at the show, and speculated that amplifiers might have been defective. Maybe, but I am a little dubious. It's really hard to give that particular spectral tilt to an amplifier; when things go wrong with SET's, they usually sound dull and murky, not thin and tinkly. Unless the output transformers were manufactured with a 200 Hz cutoff (almost no core at all), I can't imagine how any amplifier could sound like that.

Maybe the LC-1A's were not original and some wiseguy built their own cones, getting it completely wrong. I don't know. They certainly didn't sound anything like the FR curves seen in HF Olson's book, which are impressively flat for such an early loudspeaker.

So the RCA LC-1A's were both a surprise and a mystery; was that really the sound of the speaker, or were the amplifiers or phonostage defective? No way of telling. It was the last hours of the show on Sunday, so there was plenty of time to get the demo righ..."

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on August 9, 2014 at 13:52:14
gilmorneau
Audiophile

Posts: 288
Location: Colorado
Joined: August 10, 2004
 Now I kind of wish I'd made the short drive down to RMAF last year. I decided not to go because I had become bored with RMAF and audio shows in general. All I ever hear is the sameness of the acoustics of the rooms (which are universally bad and so unlike any of my listening spaces that it makes useful auditions of equipment nearly impossible).

The LC-1A's that Lynn describes must have been broken or misused somehow. When properly implemented, they are better than that. A lot.

I have had probably, I don't know, 20-30 LC-1A's of various incarnations through my hands and have seen and heard a bunch more. What's useful to keep in mind is that these speakers are more frequently than not damaged in some way as they were fragile from the beginning and did not age well. Their tweeters go bad (replacements are virtually unobtanium, though I know of a few). The surrounds on the woofers were treated with something when new that degrades over time (taking the paper surround with it). The cloth surrounds on the later versions were treated with something that becomes brittle over time, and skews the speakers' FR badly. There are VC alignment issues. And more. If you find one in ten that's in good nick, you're doing great.

All the above makes finding a good pair very difficult, and it's getting harder every day. I was just looking at a pair that were supposed to be in 'great' shape--owned by an ex RCA engineer who worked with Olson--but when I pulled them from the cabinets, there were the usual pushed in 'camel bumps' and fatigued surrounds. Mind you, they still played, but they weren't in the kind of condition that would interest me. If anyone wants them, they're still available (for pickup only in NJ).

We may have to agree to disagree on this, but I have LC-1A's here, and I know what I'm hearing.

Best,

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on September 27, 2014 at 20:56:04
mosin
Manufacturer

Posts: 10719
Joined: July 24, 2003
 A differently spelled Lyn, jazz singer Lyn Stanley, said her record sounded just like the day that she made it. She sat and listened to the entire album on those old speakers. Three different online magazines listed the room as their favorite, too. So, it's different strokes for different folks, I suppose. Hey, that's what the hobby is all about, right? Otherwise, we would all have the exact same system.

 

RE: RCA LC-1B - What possibly could go wrong?, posted on October 18, 2014 at 19:52:03
Wojciech
Audiophile

Posts: 4124
Joined: June 23, 2009
 I guess reference quality source i.e "exotic turntable" shone trough the somewhat imperfect rest of the chain :0)

 

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