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High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech

85.19.92.6
Posted on April 7, 2014 at 01:10:11
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hello,
i was reading a post about an interview of the Spendor speakers designer.
He was mentioning how he uses human voice to test his prototypes, because to reproduce every aspect of it it is a very demanding task for any speaker.
I am interested very much in HE speakers and i wonder if there are any particularly great at human voice reproduction
Something like an ultimate monitor for speech.
Moreover i think that to have a crossover point placed inside the human voice range can complicate things greatly indeed.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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in a word yes, posted on April 7, 2014 at 06:07:27
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16007
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 The Altec Duplex - I'd assume that the current production GPA Duplexes do, too.


all the best,
mrh

 

Western Electric, posted on April 7, 2014 at 11:59:27
Salectric
Audiophile

Posts: 1358
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 23, 2003
 Vintage Western Electric speakers are masters at reproducing the human voice. Of course, they are very expensive in today's market and it is very difficult to find the model you want, much less a matched pair.

However, I have to say that my "WE inspired" speaker is also great at voices. It is based on the WE 753 which is a 2-way using a 15" paper cone woofer and compression driver in a 90 degree bent horn. My design uses the same woofer (actually a Jensen P15LL which was built later in time but is essentially the same) and the same horn (actually the Altec version known as the 32A) and an Altec 802-8G compression driver. The crossover is my own design and I use a 5 cu ft bass reflex cabinet instead of the smaller sealed cabinet in the WE 753.

My other primary speakers are Spendor SP-100s so I have great respect for the vocal performance of Spendors. That said, my homemade high-efficiency speakers reproduce voices more intelligibly and more realistically. If I ever heard a real WE speaker in my system, I might change my opinion of my own speakers, but since I haven't I can say that I have never heard more coherent or more "real" voices in my setup than with these speakers.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 12:40:41
Inmate51
 I can't disagree with using the human voice as a source when evaluating ANY audio component, whether microphone, compressor, tape recorder, amplifier, phono cartridge, ADC, speaker, etc.

We are quite familiar with the sound of the voice of people we know, and can hear subtle differences in their voice under various circumstances.

We are much less familiar with the sound of the voice of people we don't know. We are able to understand inflections and emotional characteristics, but as to the proper overall "tone" or "timbre" of a specific unfamiliar person's voice, we are, by definition, quite clueless.

This is not to say that we can't detect an "unnaturally" nasal, honky, bassy, present or sibilant quality when presented in an overt manner, but subtle differences from "real" to "not real" will elude us.

And so, the difficulty, as with ANY recorded source, is: What did the original source sound like, before it was picked up by whatever brand/model microphone in whatever acoustic environment, sent to whatever brand/model mic preamp to whatever ... ?

Frankly, and this is not news to professional audio engineers, to say that "this or that" component design sounds "better" or "more realistic" is to ignor the FACT that it simply sounds better or worse with the specific recording and reproduction component chain used to produce it. The best we can do is to say that it sounds "however" WITHIN the reproduction chain in our room, and to our individually hampered or gifted ears.

:)

 

This is the very reason I have a pair of Teresonic Magus for my video system. NT, posted on April 7, 2014 at 12:57:36
jnr
Reviewer

Posts: 2164
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 .
theaudiobeatnik.com

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 13:00:16
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 The best I've heard for speech intelligibility is the Danley Synergy (a DIY version, actually). Probably being point source, controlled directivity, and high efficiency all at the same time is the combo that does it, but that's just a guess.

It's not a hifi thing, either. My wife is hard of hearing and we usually have to watch Netflix with subtitles turned on, but some films don't have any. With my previous speakers doing HT, those films were a proble. But with the Synergies it's not a major deal, even on shows with British accents (we're in USA)
_

Make easy high performance diffusors:-->http://www.libinst.com/diffusers/Depot_Diffuser.html

Horn Design Spreadsheet:--> http://libinst.com/SynergyCalc/

SmallSyns:-->http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/292379-s

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 17:41:42
audioGuest
Audiophile

Posts: 140
Location: mass. usa
Joined: April 1, 2007
 for a vocal reference i would stay away from any crossover at all. lots of great full range 8 inchers out there like: altec 755, phillips ad series, jensen p8p, pioneer pim .

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 17:54:21
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I think you're over-concerned with this especially about the crossover. Don't let the ramblings on internet forums get in your head too much.

Every speaker design makes a compromise. The vocal range covers a wide spectrum and also a wide spectrum of dynamics. I have heard single drivers do a nice job of female vocals but male bass/baritone at higher levels a two way with a crossover can sound more rich and full and "real."

And the other problem is that in most all music - a singer doesn't stand alone - there is usually some sort of instrument/band playing and many single driver no crossover sound clean and tidy etc etc but lack dynamics/bass/treble extension - and no matter how great it may be with a singer's voice if the cymbal sounds utterly fake or the speaker compresses badly - your ear/brain will get bothered by the fact that something is patently not right.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 18:02:18
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001

Just as an aside - Line Magnetic (Korean company making gear from China) is reproducing the 755 driver. It's a terrific quality driver - I had the driver in my hands - pretty enticing.

I have a small apartment and it might work

If you follow the link you can see a bigger picture of the LM speakers - for some reason I can't copy image when the picture is enlarged.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 21:12:16
Inmate51
 "Don't let the ramblings on internet forums get in your head too much."

10-4 on that, RGA. I rarely give much credence to your posts, despite your apparent self-importance.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 7, 2014 at 21:39:18
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4305
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 I agree that being on the internet doesn't imply truth. You need to judge what is there. But in this case you should at least respect the opinions of a designer like Derek Hughes with decades of design experience of speakers that have the highest respect of many reviewers and listeners. He certainly does know something.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 8, 2014 at 02:06:09
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Nor should you. The worst thing anyone on these boards can do is rely on internet posts (mine included) or review magazines.

If you'll notice - every single kind of loudspeaker has a reviewer somewhere that touts the loudspeakers. I prefer HE/SET - a lot of people who do will perhaps enjoy what I have to say - people who like Wilson Maxx3 and some sort of giant arse solid State behemouth of an amp don't share a similar ear. Since they sell a lot of them and the amps that drive them it is clear that what turns their crank and mine differ immensely.

The OP was noting things he heard about designs based on what he was told - and myths get created. Myths like SET has no bass or treble which for decades was spouted off and regurgitated (without anyone of them actually auditioning the stuff).

Horns are bad - you find out later they based that view on hearing a $399 Klipsch connected to a $199 receiver at a drug store. No kidding The Drug store London Drugs in Canada sells such systems. "It was bright" so all horns suck. Four other people agree and suddenly forum memes are created about how awful horns sound.

People seem to have gotten defensive - I wasn't attacking Hughes or single drivers. The OP should simply listen - it's almost better to do all the listening first - take notes of the best stuff THEN and ONLY then see if he can correlate technology with the best sound. Most well experienced audiophiles have more trouble with that because we bring a whole set of expectation bias into the auditions.

 

Yes, posted on April 8, 2014 at 07:44:13
bouncy ball
Audiophile

Posts: 1221
Location: British Columbia
Joined: July 26, 2003
 A friend of mine, he is about 80, everyone morning, he turns on his WE300b single ended amp, listened to FM radio morning news and news discussion, etc via his altec 604c speaker which is mounted to a home made cabinet, just a mono set up. The sound or I should say the human voice via such set up is unbelievable.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 8, 2014 at 10:30:37
Inmate51
 :)

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 8, 2014 at 17:23:01
Paul Joppa
Industry Professional

Posts: 7295
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: April 23, 2001
 On the human voice as reference, I have over the years found that different speakers excel at different things. And conversely, different recorded sounds make different demands on speakers. If you only want the best reproduction of voice, then using voice as a test signal makes sense. But if you want to listen to Nine Inch Nails - use their albums to test speakers. If you have a wide range of music you like, then there is no substitute for trying a wide range before making a judgement.

That's a big problem with listening in stores and especially at shows - the music you hear is that which sounds good on the speakers being auditioned. If that does not cover what's in your own collection, you can pretty much count on disappointment once the speakers are in your house.

Totally agree about crossover in the vocal range making design difficult. Not impossible, it's just that you can get away with more imperfections the further you are above or below the vocal range - which IMO is 200-3000Hz. I've heard designs that cross seamlessly in the vocal range - but they are few and far between.

 

RE: Try a driver explicitly designed for voice ...., posted on April 8, 2014 at 19:07:16
hitsware
Audiophile

Posts: 2635
Location: N. Calif.
Joined: December 30, 2004
 ... Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !

amongst (perhaps @ the top) of the genre :

http://site.camelectronics.com/pdf/8C10FEPAX.pdf

 

" Intelligibility does not preclude musicality ! ", posted on April 8, 2014 at 22:44:45
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thank you very much indeed for your valuable advice
I completely agree with your statement that i quote
This is exactly my point and if i am not wrong also the point of the Spendor speakers designer.
Once you get the voice very right the rest comes together.
Ok ... maybe another woofer for the low end and a tweeter for the high to complete the bandwidth.
Thank you for the suggestion of a driver.
I am sure i will do some DIY soon.
As i said my intention is to make a speaker maybe limited in freq but HE and very good with voices.
And then add something down and something above it.
I think that this approach is sane.
Kind regards,
bg

 

" Totally agree about crossover in the vocal range making design difficult ", posted on April 8, 2014 at 22:50:19
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks for the reply
Yes that is indeed my thought.
I think that in the crossover point we can have bad effects like:
1) drivers overlap
2) dispersion variations
3) timbral difference between drivers
I understand it is not easy to find a driver able to cope with all the human voice bandwidth.
I have also another issue with the low freq cut.
If the driver is asked to reproduce also the very low freq below 150 Hz this could distort the midrange.
So i think that it should not go below let's say 150 Hz and send these freq to a woofer.
Thanks a lot.



Kind regards,
bg

 

" speaking of Altec ", posted on April 8, 2014 at 22:57:15
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks a lot for your kind and helpful advice.
I have found something about Vintage Altec ...
I was thinking more to something like the 755E Wide Range Speaker.
I am pretty sure is available like the snow in a desert ... it must be very rare indeed and i have no information on it.
But my goal would be to find a driver able to cope with all the voice range (almost) and with HE.
I am switching to very low power amp.
When i will get the voices right i will be done.
For lows and highs i have already solutions in mind.
For lows a nice pair of PA speakers.
For highs above 3kHz a nice pair of horn loaded tweeters.
And i will be done for ever.
Thanks again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

" about the crossover ", posted on April 8, 2014 at 23:03:35
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks for the kind advice
I am above all concerned with the crossover point
I am sure that a low crossover point is not a problem
And actually i think it is very important to take away the powerful bass from the midrange
The midrange is delicate and if the same driver must cope also with a 50-60 Hz strong signal i am sure i will get IMD.
But at first i would like to focus on the midrange.
Once got it right i will think about the rest.
The intelligibility of dialogues for me is of paramount importance.
For instance now i have distortions ... like the voice out of focus.
And the all effect is very fatiguing and annoying ... source of stress.
Let's say that i am looking for a voice monitor.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 8, 2014 at 23:32:15
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi thanks very interesting, but i do not understand if you have the original 755 or Line Magnetic copy.
I have seen pictures of the 755E and i like it extremely.
I am attaching a link also.
I guess is both extremely rare and expensive. The original of course.
I think i will go for something of this kind.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

Interesting concept indeed , posted on April 8, 2014 at 23:42:54
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi and thanks for the very interesting suggestion.
If they are similar to the one in the picture they are actually a very original concept.
By the way i am also an avid Netflix watcher myself.
And i need to get dialogues strong and clear to have any chance to understand something ... i am italian and trying to improve a little my understanding of spoken english.
Understand first then try to make myself understood ... this is my present main aim.
I have noticed that if the dialogues are clear the brain is less stressed.
There is no additional stress caused by distortion i guess.
I am more hard of brain and of hearing ...
But i am very interested in a driver usable in a DIY project.
Something like the 755E already mentioned.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: This is the very reason I have a pair of Teresonic Magus for my video system. NT, posted on April 8, 2014 at 23:51:22
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi thanks and very interesting indeed.
May i ask which version ?
I see " Drive unit One 5" Lowther DX55, A55 or DX65 driver"
Thanks a lot for the valuable suggestion.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 9, 2014 at 00:01:10
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very valuable advice.
There is another maybe psicological factor.
I think that human voices have the potential to trigger emotion much more than a musical instruments.
I was listening to a Pavarotti recording of "Nessun Dorma"
If i listen to it on a decent system i get slightly moved
If i listen to it on a very good system my eyes become wet.
Maybe i am just going nuts ... but this is the effect really.
Human voice is able to trigger emotions ... so it is up to the recording and the reply system to be able to transfer it adequately.
I am going to do this ... to record my own voice with a nice digital recorder and then reply it back on the system with eyes close.
I would like to get a sor of out of body experience.
The more scarying will be the better ... i hope will not be too scary.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

" my homemade high-efficiency speakers reproduce voices more intelligibly and more realistically ", posted on April 9, 2014 at 00:15:54
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004


Hi and thank you very much indeed for your very interesting advice
I trust your opinion completely but i am afraid I have to find a simpler solution ... at least for now.
I wonder if intelligibility can be a synonimous of low distortion.
Then the task would be simplified
I guess your creation is extremely low in IMD figures, maybe more than the Spendor SP-100 ?
I listened to them at an audio fair and i likes them very much indeed.
Now that i think i could replicate the same schema, with different drivers maybe.




Kind regards,
bg

 

" The Altec Duplex ", posted on April 9, 2014 at 00:30:22
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004


Hi and thanks for the kind suggestion
I forgot to mention that i am looking for a not very expensive solution like the Altec Duplex are.
I am sure they quality is beyond any doubt. I read already some very impressive reviews of them.
I cannot imagine their price.
Maybe i am obsessed by crossing different drivers just in the voice range.
Now that i think better this could very well be the right solution, at least for dispersion.
Because i think that the tweeter and the woofer could have a very similar dispersion around the crossover point ?
And the fame of the driver also speaks for itself.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 9, 2014 at 00:37:53
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for your kind advice
This was indeed my thinking.
Maybe i am obsessed by this thing i do not know.
But it seems very reasonable to me.
I am only afraid that this kind of drivers are both rare and very expensive indeed, especially if tested and matched, a must i think.
As i live in Europe maybe Philips drivers are more available here.
Could you name me some specific model ?
Thanks a lot

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 9, 2014 at 02:55:41
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 There is an official and quite complex measurement of speech intelligibilty called STI (see link).

Tannoy DCs always were pretty good at that and to the best of my knowledge so are Tom Danleys products. I would assume that Altecs are good as well as it seems to favour point sources.

That said the people I know who have experience with both Altec co-axials and Tannoy DCs do give Tannoy the edge overall. Tannoy even produced the FSM-U which fitted into the soffit designed for Urei 813 (Altec co-ax + 15" woofer) upon request from US studios.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 9, 2014 at 05:57:23
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thank you very much indeed for the very interesting advice
I would be extremely interested to get some STI figures relevant to commercial speakers
I am completely convinced about the speech intellegibility test, at least for voice bandwidth, so important to me now.
I still am very intrigued about the possibility to reproduce most of the voice with a same driver.
And then maybe complete down and above with other drivers.
I know it is a very demanding task.
Tannoy DC usually have a crossover point at around 1kHz i guess.
Right in the upper middle of the voice range.
I read often that if the midrange is right than the rest can come easily.
And on the basis of my humble experience is quite easy to find very good quality tweeters and woofers.
Also i think that a mid cone could be a better option than a mid dome.
A driver able to cope very well with 150-3000 Hz range.
Possibly high eff that is always a very welcome thing.
Thanks a lot for your very valuable advice.
Kind regards,
bg

 

there are 'lesser known' Altecs, too, posted on April 9, 2014 at 06:23:42
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16007
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016

some are profoundly unassuming, with no audiophile cachet at all... but still competent -- and cheap!


all the best,
mrh

 

yeah, you've gotta specify price! ;-), posted on April 9, 2014 at 06:25:14
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16007
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 ... although, that said, chance favors the prepared mind. The cost of the 604Es and Mastering Labs crossovers I am using was quite reasonable relative to "eBAY prices".

I have less than $2k invested in my Duplexes including the bespoke boxes I had built for them. I consider them a tremendous value in terms of price/performance.

Heck, I'd opine that the current production GPA drivers are very reasonably priced for what they are - considering them as a lifetime investment.

DSC_5735


all the best,
mrh

 

RE: there are 'lesser known' Altecs, too, posted on April 9, 2014 at 06:47:52
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks for the suggestion
still is a two ways solution.
I am in some way intrigued by idea of absence of crossover in the voice bandwidth.
There are some wideband around
I have to study seriously the issue before go hunting for a specific driver
Thanks a lot

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: yeah, you've gotta specify price! ;-), posted on April 9, 2014 at 07:09:19
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Very very beautiful
I agree with the approach of the lifetime investment
I have bought many cheap speakers and all failed to satisfy me really
I have also found the site of Great Plains Audio company
I will study seriously the information available there
Thanks again
Kind regards,
bg

 

go full range, then, posted on April 9, 2014 at 07:49:13
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16007
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016

zillions of choices at all price points - ever try any of the Fostex drivers?

Besides some other Fostexes, I have a pair of these little guys (sans the little Fostex amp - no need for it) with the FE103En (offwhite cone) drivers and they sound good - haven't critically evaluated speech on 'em, though - yet. I can if you wish, and report back :-)



all the best,
mrh

 

RE: there are 'lesser known' Altecs, too, posted on April 9, 2014 at 08:05:10
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2529
Joined: March 8, 2002
 There are also these, with 95db sensitivity. Use them for 200-5k, like a wide range mid. Add a good woofer and tweeter for a nice full range 3 way.

 

RE: Try a driver explicitly designed for voice ...., posted on April 9, 2014 at 08:07:02
Hornlover
Manufacturer

Posts: 2529
Joined: March 8, 2002
 I have used drivers like this in the past. They can give surprisingly good midrange performance.

 

RE: go full range, then, posted on April 9, 2014 at 08:50:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi again
Interesting speakers.
Yes if you can i would be interested to know especially about the speech intelligibility, my new obsession i would say
The idea is to add then a woofer, or two maybe
Thanks a lot for the kind help
Kind regards,
bg

 

Beautiful ! very very nice ... , posted on April 9, 2014 at 08:53:53
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks !
Great reviews i see. It looks really serious
I am a little lost now with all these options.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Try a driver explicitly designed for voice ...., posted on April 9, 2014 at 09:26:28
hitsware
Audiophile

Posts: 2635
Location: N. Calif.
Joined: December 30, 2004
 It should not be a surprise :)
Just that they are not marketed towards the hi-fi
crowd and are too inexpensive to ' merit ' .
They are a way of life for me .

 

RE: Try a driver explicitly designed for voice ...., posted on April 9, 2014 at 09:36:28
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 I vaguely recall back in the '80s a (german?) speaker manufacturer used a TV driver as a mid.
It was quite cheap but very good.

 

Intelligibility, posted on April 9, 2014 at 12:16:01
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8184
Joined: July 4, 2002
 Intelligibility has a specific meaning and can be measured, unlike fidelity is not a subjective thing. Originally measured by reciting a hundred or thousands of random words and then listeners record what words they heard. It was found MANY things were involved or govern intelligibility.

In commercial sound where all the acoustic problems are worse and the required sound level higher, there was an early formula called the Hopkins Stryker equation which had some predictive ability.

That can be seen here in the original H.S. equation, note that all things being equal, the more sources you have the worse intelligibility is, the less directivity the worse it is, the less absorption, the worse it is and if the speakers are not aimed at the listeners, the worse it is.

http://acousticworx.com/sound%20system%20design%20hopkins%20stryker%20formula.html

This was superseded by the modified equation and then the ALCON and STI measurements.
Now the current ‘best” language independent predictor of intelligibility which has legal standing is the STIpa measurement.

This measurement is based on the modulation transfer functions at a number of different frequencies weighted to a voice spectrum.
The MTF measurement in acoustics is one which quantifies how much of the information in the signal reaches the microphone. Here is an example of an MTF as used in optics.

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF.html

To be clear while intelligibility can go hand in hand with pinpoint stereo imaging, preserving information as indicated in MTF’s is not a requirement to enjoy the sound.
For example, a choir is a large room may sound dreamy and a recording of a choir played in the same room may also sound dreamy even though there is zero intelligibility and no sense of stereo image.

While STIpa can be easily measured;

http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/sti-pa/

I am not sure it is useful in a living room, on the other hand, if one were comparing different loudspeakers in the exact same locations or listening position in a room or anechoically, then the MTF measurements at the heart of the STIpa are I think useful as a way to compare “how much of the recording gets to the listening position” with one speaker vs another. Arta has a MTF routine.

What shows up too is that the more it preserves the signal here, the more generations one can record and play back music using the loudspeaker and measurement mic in the loop, before subjectively falling apart.

Here, most loudspeakers sound surprisingly bad by generation one or two,few reach three, by far they are the weakest link if being faithful to the signal is the yardstick.
Best,
Tom Danley

 

Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on April 9, 2014 at 14:31:18
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 That's true. My speakers are high sensitivity, and my system is absolutely flat from 20Hz-20kHz. They sound perfect with music, and as far as voices are concerned you literally cannot tell a person speaking on the TV from a person speaking in the room. IME if a speaker doesn't faithfully reproduce the spoken word it's not faithfully reproducing music either.

 

I use the A55s as little smoother, the DX65 is lightening fast, but both are great! NT, posted on April 9, 2014 at 17:19:02
jnr
Reviewer

Posts: 2164
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Joined: April 5, 2000
 .
theaudiobeatnik.com

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 9, 2014 at 22:12:35
RC Daniel
Audiophile

Posts: 1922
Location: Brisbane
Joined: November 3, 2002
 >>> I know who have experience with both Altec co-axials and Tannoy DCs do give Tannoy the edge overall. <<<

Performance of the Altecs - and their more modern/ resolved GPA descendants - is rather (very!) crossover and cabinet dependant. The commonly used classical alignments and crossovers are easily bettered.

Personally, there are few Tannoy DC I would consider using over a well-implemented GPA-604, and those are very, very expensive.

As an aside, speaker alignments are not my bag, but it seems that low Q drivers are less forgiving of imperfect alignments than mid - high Q drivers (but I could be way off on that point). The GPA-604 is a low Q speaker; Tannoys are generally mid Q speakers.

Cheers.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, in the expert's mind there are few." Shunryo Suzuki

 

" Intelligibility has a specific meaning and can be measured, unlike fidelity is not a subjective thing ", posted on April 9, 2014 at 23:17:04
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hello and thank you sincerely for your kind and valuable advice
This is very difficult to me to understand as i am extremely uneducated in physics and similar sciences.
I am sorry for this but i will try anyway because this topic interests me very very much.
But i do not fully agree on the fact that " Intelligibility ... unlike fidelity is not a subjective thing "
I think that intellegibility and fidelity are the same thing really.
Much more.
The fact that intellegibility can be measured and fidelity instead is a less defined parameter elevates in importance the intellegibility versus fidelity.
" The perfection is mathematical " there is nothing of subjective.
For me my next step will be to select some digital tracks with speech recorded with very high quality and to use them as a main tool for testing audio rig set-up.
I am completely sure that a system great in speech reproduction cannot fail when reproducing music.
A least in the voice bandwidth.
But i also think that to add some bass and highs is not that complicated.
The midrange is what makes or breaks sound.
Thanks a lot again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on April 9, 2014 at 23:23:54
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hello and thanks for the valuable reply.
You say " That's true. My speakers are high sensitivity, and my system is absolutely flat from 20Hz-20kHz. They sound perfect with music, and as far as voices are concerned you literally cannot tell a person speaking on the TV from a person speaking in the room.
IME if a speaker doesn't faithfully reproduce the spoken word it's not faithfully reproducing music either "

You have won my complete attention. Especially when you state

" you literally cannot tell a person speaking on the TV from a person speaking in the room " ... sublime !

Looking at your designs (truly exceptional I must say sincerely) here:

http://billfitzmaurice.net/

which one you would rate the best for this task of speech reproduction ?
They are all equally good ?
Very impressive speakers indeed. Congratulations !
I knew i need a bigger listening room ...
Thanks a lot again.



Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on April 10, 2014 at 05:08:32
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 > which one you would rate the best for this task of speech reproduction ?

My personal HT setup is TLAH L/R, SLA CurveArray center, Table Tuba sub.I don't use horn loaded mains because they're a bit large for my room.

 

RE: Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on April 10, 2014 at 06:21:29
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Thanks again.
Very interesting designs indeed.
I would guess that drivers selection is quite critical to achieve top performance
I will read your site carefully during the weekend
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: " Intelligibility has a specific meaning and can be measured, unlike fidelity is not a subjective thing ", posted on April 10, 2014 at 07:56:19
tomservo
Manufacturer

Posts: 8184
Joined: July 4, 2002
 Hi
What I mean is that intelligibility can be measured, if you use random words (not sentences) and can only make out half of them, you have 50% and don’t have good intelligibility.
To have intelligibility, one must convey the information within the audio signal and a key part of that is preserving time.

On the other hand, what is enjoyable, what sounds good can’t be quantified anywhere nearly as easily, it is subjective based on how it sounds to the listener and like the choir example, one doesn’t need to preserve of convey the “information” to sound good.
One can go to a concert or large live event and not understand many of the words but still very much enjoy the show.

The best way I have found to subjectively quantify a loudspeakers faithfulness is a generation loss recording, just like with other parts in the chain, the more generations one can record and play before being unlistenable, the more faithful that element is to the input signal.

If you do this outdoors up in the air, the only thing you hear is what the loudspeaker does transmogrifying the signal.

The MTF measurements I mentioned are a measure of resolution, if you Google “modulation transfer function measurements” and examine the many examples of it’s use in optics, you can get an idea why that is the key to the STIpa measurements used to predict inteligibility.

In audio, the loudspeaker is modulated on and off at a given base frequency and if what reaches the mic is either full or zero modulation, then the the MTF is 100% at that modulation rate.

Keep in mind, this is what I see not a universal belief but it has been the direction I have gone at work in large scale sound to preserve intelligibility and fidelity.

If you have ever been to a large stadium or concert and heard a CD being played, you have a base line for what line arrays sound like. The larger they are, the more they disperse time information, the less intelligibility they have, the less they are able to produce a mono phantom image in a stereo configuration.

Here are a couple examples of what can be done in large scale where everything is harder, these systems can produce a stereo image, have very high intelligibility and articulation, both nonexistent when there are many arrivals in time like a typical array produces.

Again, if you have been to a large stadium before and heard the typical state of concert sound, pop on some headphones and compare that approach to these large stadiums using loudspeakers and layouts driven by preserving signal information..

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tnsw5mb4v5vdlwq/20120726122124.mts

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oyosfc3adc6j1du/20130723135350.mts

We don’t advertise like the marketing driven companies but we do get press every so often;

http://www.psam.uk.com/danley-loudspeakers-infiltrate-sports-market
Best,
Tom

 

RE: Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on April 10, 2014 at 09:42:43
Bill Fitzmaurice
Industry Professional

Posts: 5370
Location: New England
Joined: October 20, 2002
 >I would guess that drivers selection is quite critical to achieve top performance

Not so much with a line array. You can find quite inexpensive drivers with good response, though they may lack high sensitivity and power handling. Use enough of them and both high sensitivity and power handling are realized.

 

When you are that good, posted on April 10, 2014 at 19:23:14
jasonwinslow@yahoo.com
Audiophile

Posts: 111
Location: North Carolina
Joined: July 7, 2005
 You don't need to advertise...the people will find you on their own.

 

" One can go to a concert or large live event ", posted on April 12, 2014 at 07:58:58
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot for the valuable reply but a large live event is very far from my situation (small to medium listenig room).
I am looking for a speaker that makes me wonder if i am listening to recorded human voice of real human voice.
And then the rest will follows automatically.
I really do not know if systems extremely good in open space can be scaled down for home listening.
I tend to think so anyway.
Thanks a lot again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 12, 2014 at 22:49:20
Steve Schell
Manufacturer

Posts: 1440
Location: So. California
Joined: December 16, 2001
 Great question, beppe61. Correct, believable reproduction of human voice would seem to be a requirement in any high fidelity system, no?

Back in 1998 or so I bought a pair of ancient RCA field coil theatre woofers off ebay, and the seller offered to throw in a companion compression driver that shared the same motor for another $50. This RCA MI-1428B sat on my workbench for a few weeks until I connected its field coil to a lantern battery and fed it some audio from a table radio. I stood back and thought: DAMN, what is this thing? It offered the truest reproduction of the human voice I had ever heard! As I came to understand, this late 1930s RCA theatre compression driver was built under threat of patent infringement from Western Electric, and like other designs of its era went to elaborate lengths to avoid infringing AT&T's patents. Instead of AT&T's portion-of-sphere aluminum foil diaphragm with peripheral suspension and voice coil, this RCA used a silk cloth and phenolic resin center-suspended shallow cone diaphragm with wool cloth outer suspension and 2" voice coil located midway between center and outer edge. So although a bit heavy and challenged in the highest frequencies, the diaphragm was extremely well damped and well behaved in the critical midrange. As I came to appreciate, this enabled "big goose bumps" lifelike vocal reproduction. My machinist extraordinaire buddy Rich Drysdale and I began to manufacture modernized versions of this driver in 2004 and continue sporadically to this day. We have lost our shirts in this endeavor thus far but have sure had a lot of fun!

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 14, 2014 at 10:51:25
hvbias
Audiophile

Posts: 396
Location: New Hampshire
Joined: December 18, 2005
 Do you have more information about their 755 driver? The US importers website is quite lacking in detail.

 

RE: High efficiency speaker with great reproduction of speech, posted on April 22, 2014 at 09:40:26
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and sorry for the very late reply but i had problems last week
From your very valuable advice i understand that to try to use only one driver for the voice range is not feasible
Not only, a well matched two ways speaker can give exceptional performance if the drivers are up to the task of course
And i understand that this kind of drivers cannot be cheap, being exceptional good.
Thanks a lot and kind regards,
beppe
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: yeah, you've gotta specify price! ;-), posted on April 25, 2014 at 22:21:32
drlowmu
Manufacturer

Posts: 9730
Location: East of Kansas City
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The cost of a hi fi system is the total cost of all the systems that preceeded the one you use now !!

Make no mistake, the GPA drivers will easily outperform vintage Altec drivers, they are more efficient and a better overall design. Bill has his act together !!

Altec, and or GPA is likely the most reasonable price / performance speaker choice one can make in 2014, and have it last many years.

No mention was made by the original poster as to the quality of the "low powered" amp that powers the speaker. Amps are generally, far worse on voice fidelity than most decent speakers. Amps, not speakers, are the weak link. For high efficiency speaker playback, after 60 plus years at it, I find two stage amps, directly coupled, with low DCR and "fast" settling supplies are the very best, most satisfactory solution to my tastes. YMMV.

Good luck on your quest. Refer back please to my first sentence.

Jeff Medwin

 

RE: Intelligibility does not preclude musicality !, posted on May 1, 2014 at 20:30:11
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17292
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 " my system is absolutely flat from 20Hz-20kHz"

That's truly amazing.

I've lived a long time but I guess not long enough. I've never heard of a speaker system that is truly flat 20Hz-20kHz.

You must use some unbelievable drivers.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

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