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New Firmware for Sony HAP-Z1ES Released Today

71.174.212.17
Posted on October 19, 2016 at 16:55:59
stereo5
Audiophile

Posts: 1356
Location: New England
Joined: June 22, 2008
 I installed the newest firmware today and was pleasantly surprised that the player now supports an external DAC via the USB connection. It now does DSD over USB2 and there is a provision to turn it on/off. I played a couple of different artists and the player seems to work perfectly with the iPad remote.

Here is the skinny, direct from Sony:

This firmware upgrade (version 18033R) provides the following improvements over version 17384R:
Adds support for the Media Server function
Adds support for the USB digital output function (USB hub support for connecting each of one HDD drive, one CD drive, and one USB DAC)
Adds support for Seek operations
Adds support for the Fade In/Out function
Adds the Go to genre/artist/album/folder function to the Options menu
Adds the following operations: ◦Queuing the track next to the one currently playing, and queuing the track last
◦Deleting the track from the play queue
◦Creating a playlist with the play queue
◦Deleting the playlist
◦Deleting the track from the playlist
◦Deleting the information of a disconnected external hard disk drive




"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."


 

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RE: New Firmware for Sony HAP-Z1ES Released Today, posted on October 20, 2016 at 06:21:11
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Thanks for posting this! It's great news. I knew they were going to add a USB hub capability, but I didn't know it would include the ability to use an external dac. This really increases the usefulness of the HAP. Now I know what I'm going to feed that Yggdrasil with.

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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 20, 2016 at 10:46:15
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 The Remastering Engine is the whole point of the Z1.
Why would I want to use an external dac, what would that do?
I wouldn't want the signal to go through 2 Dacs.
Sorry. not getting it!

 

RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 20, 2016 at 11:16:53
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 No just one dac at a time.

Because I want to try an R2R dac. I just placed my order for the Yggdrasil at lunchtime. I was wondering what to use as a server for it. I have a slightly old General Dynamics laptop with a fresh install of Windows 7. Yes it's U.S. Army surplus. I bought it for my sailboat, but it never made it that far. Or I could have put a usb wifi receiver on the Yggy, but now I can use the HAP as the server. I'm sure the HAP will make a first rate server.

I really like the way the HAP sounds, and it's DSD remastering engine, but now I can add a hi rez R2R dac as well, and hear the difference between R2R PCM and DSD for myself instead of just reading about it.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

OK, Thanks! nt, posted on October 20, 2016 at 11:24:52
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

Turning on the remastering feature puts a load on processing power, posted on October 20, 2016 at 16:03:15
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 And in turn that affects sound quality.

Yes, while you may now get higher density of data, but this comes at the expense of immediacy, dynamic contrast, and musical ease.

This issue of activating an extra digital-based feature putting extra strain on onboard dsp processing power leading to poorer sound quality has always plague their company's products.

Starting with all their DVD players - leaving the Dynamic Range Control (drc) on affects both SACD and CD playback sound quality, even though this feature is supposed to affect Dolby Digital sound tracks only. I've mentioned this more than a few times here. Search for "drc".

On their SACD players, there are much worse issues:
- setting player to default cd mode (reading the cd layer first) affected SACD playback
- turning on the optional slow filter affect SACD playback (even though this feature was supposed to work on cd playback only)
- setting player to default m-ch mode affects 2-ch SACD and CD playback. (Mentioned many many times here. Search the archives)

The m-ch / 2-ch default mode was the main reason why, on the xa5400es, the switching between both playback modes became implemented as a physical switch at the back panel, instead of digital-based activation.

 

Reviewers and I like it better w/R.E., posted on October 20, 2016 at 16:15:16
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I also prefer Precision Upsampling.
Sorry, your "Insights" into digital players doesn't mesh with my experience.

 

RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 20, 2016 at 17:27:33
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
but now I can use the HAP as the server.

The HAP will require the necessary driver to ensure compatibility with the outboard DAC. Hopefully Sony took that into account. I'd be curious to know if the Sony recognizes your new DAC, and how is this setup within the Sony. Thanks.

 

RE: Turning on the remastering feature puts a load on processing power, posted on October 20, 2016 at 17:52:25
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014



Jerome I think I have to agree with you on the DSD remastering. I spend long periods with it turned off, and I think I like it better that way. I do go back and forth. I never use the Precision Upsampling. To me it makes the transient attack too sharp. To me that's hi fi. I try to guard against amps that make the transient attack to sharp. It's common. Transient attacks are not sharp at all in the natural world. I also think when the attack is wrong the decay is always wrong along with it. No offense intended to you oldmkvi. These are just my opinions.

OTOH the DSEE software on the HAP is superb. It always results in a better sound with Mp3s. It's only used for 44/16 and Mp3s. I always leave it on, but there are CDs that may sound better without it. Linked below is a Sony engineer's explanation of it for anybody who's interested.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

I found it a little soft and bland without the Precision Mode., posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:04:51
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I've tested it a number of times.
I'll do it again!
Jerome also claimed that the Phase was reversed, needing switching both speaker connections.
He also said witching them at the Amp was better than at the speakers.
I use it in the normal fashion.
I can hardly imagine that using the R.E. isn't the best way.
Why else would they put it in there?
With my Dacs, I always listen to DSD128, whether Native or up sampled, always better to me.

 

RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:16:10
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Very good point. Yes for the Yggy it would have to be USB Class 2 Audio compliant. I will have to research it.

The one thing I noticed from the limited notes on updating the software was that it said any external DSD dac would have to be able to accept DSD via DoP. That made me wonder how the data is delivered inside the HAP. Does it provide a DSD file in it's native format to the DSD dac, or does it send it by DoP? That would not be good if it did as most observers seem to think that DoP is inferior.

I'll let you know.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

I can tell you that Transients in Live Orchs and Big Bands, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:25:31
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 are Much sharper than most recordings or players can produce.
A Snare Drum is louder than most Gun Shots, a Concert Bass Drum is Bomb, literally.
Loud, high Trumpets are amazing in the intensity.
A Piccolo can literally put your ears out.
So I don't agree about Transients.

 

DSEE is used right up to 24/192. nt, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:31:24
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:32:43
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

RE: I can tell you that Transients in Live Orchs and Big Bands, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:36:47
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 It's all good! You don't have to test it again, and you don't have to agree we me on transients. I was just stating what I heard. The difference in Precision mode is minute. It could very well be a matter of personal taste.

I think you know you are an audiophile when you really start to listen to the way things sound in real life. Not just real music, but everything. Listen to the transient attack of someone speaking to you, or even an acoustic guitar. To my surprise I find the transient attack of a guitar not at all as sharp as you would think it would be. These are just my observations.

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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: DSEE is used right up to 24/192. nt, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:39:23
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Right you are. The blue light always stays on.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 20, 2016 at 18:47:37
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 DoP is not a selling point to me. I think I would rather have a dedicated DSD dac, and a dedicated PCM dac. Thorsten recently linked an addendum on audiostream. See it? It talks about how a versatile dac winds up converting formats back and forth four or eight times over. It's hard to win in this hobby.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

Many DACs do...., posted on October 20, 2016 at 19:23:28
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 ...and it ain't bad. But I prefer hi-res PCM anyway so DSD or DSD over DoP doesn't really concern me.

 

RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 21, 2016 at 06:05:34
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 I just read several posts on different forums that the HAP uses Linux, and Linux supports USB audio 2.0. I may be in luck.



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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 21, 2016 at 06:55:35
PAR
 The DAC per se has nothing to do with DoP. A DSD DAC handles DSD not DoP. DoP is just a method of transporting DSD within a PCM "wrapper" from one device to another using existing 24/176.4 capable SPdif, AES/EBU or USB interfaces. So the DoP package has to be unwrapped (as it were) before the DSD data is presented to the DAC for processing. Think of a zipped file as a metaphor, once unzipped you have the original file.

It seems unlikely that DoP would be used within a component for the internal distribution of data. The SPdif etc. interfaces are not used for this role. To use DoP for this would also entail the machine taking the original DSD file, packing it as a DoP one then immediately unpacking it so as to revert to DSD in order that it can be processed by the DAC. That does not make sense to me.

Note when I refer to the DAC I am talking about the chip (or other implementation) itself, not about a box of ports and components.

It is not unreasonable to imagine that machines with inadequate processing horsepower or with other inadequacies may unpack the file whilst thereby creating anomalies e.g. excessive jitter, which result in inferior sound. But this would be a fault of implementation rather than with the DoP protocol itself.



 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 21, 2016 at 07:29:18
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Yes I realized I misspoke after I posted. I understand that DoP is used on the server side of things, not the dac side. I should have said I may prefer something like a DSD server/dac, or PCM server/dac as opposed to an all in one system.

It does seem unlikely that a system like the HAP would use DoP internally, and it wouldn't make much sense, hence my comment about it. What I also find confusing is why if the HAP does not use DoP internally, and if it is capable of USBA 2.0, then why would it use DoP to an external DSD dac for native DSD files. I may have to post the question on the Sony forum. The Sony engineers are pretty good about answering questions on their forum. Still the question for me is moot since it is unlikely I will be connecting an external DSD dac, but one never knows.

Thanks for the link.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 21, 2016 at 09:30:29
PAR
 " why would it use DoP to an external DSD dac for native DSD files"

The answer is pretty straightforward. Sony have no control over the DAC selected by he user (the box in this case, not chip). Virtually all DSD DACs that have inputs which accept DSD do so by using DoP. It is now the effective international standard. So Sony selected the only commercially viable option.

Even given your earlier scenario of a dedicated DAC for DSD (and another for PCM), you would still have to find a way of getting the DSD data to the DAC from the player and the primary contender would be DoP. As far as I am aware the only alternative would be HDMI which, aside from its own non-ideal aspects, would involve packing the DSD data in accordance with the HDMI protocol as apposed to that of DoP. Six of one and half a dozen of the other (do you use that idiom in US English?).

A server/DAC? Well there are DSD streamer DACs around e.g. dCS Rossini which also does PCM in the form of upsampled DXD.

Earlier you spoke about (avoiding) multiple conversions. DoP does not involve converting the DSD data, it just defines how it is packed for the carrier medium.

 

Does it provide a DSD file in it's native format?, posted on October 21, 2016 at 09:43:24
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 "Does it provide a DSD file in it's native format to the DSD dac, or does it send it by DoP? That would not be good if it did as most observers seem to think that DoP is inferior."

Yes, native format but wrapped in a PCM package; that is the beauty of it.

The only downside is that it takes up twice the data rate due to the packaging. This will stress any situation with marginal link capability especially if one is interested in 2xDSD or 4xDSD or......

 

DoP alternative, posted on October 21, 2016 at 11:06:52
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 "Even given your earlier scenario of a dedicated DAC for DSD (and another for PCM), you would still have to find a way of getting the DSD data to the DAC from the player and the primary contender would be DoP. As far as I am aware the only alternative would be HDMI which, aside from its own non-ideal aspects, would involve packing the DSD data in accordance with the HDMI protocol as apposed to that of DoP."

Another, imho, more straightforward option is USB.

 

RE: New Firmware for Sony HAP-Z1ES Released Today, posted on October 21, 2016 at 12:45:59
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing-

 

RE: DoP alternative, posted on October 21, 2016 at 17:26:07
PAR
 Yes, USB is an alternative. However this thread is in the context of the choice of Sony in implementing their DSD input using DoP protocol.

Of course virtually all DSD DACs will accept DoP via a USB input. However the number accepting raw or native DSD via USB is comparitively limited. Checking it appears that there are currently around 420 DSD DACs available * (a large number that surprised me). However of these only around 80 models will accept raw or native DSD data via USB (all in addition to DoP via USB).

My argument is that Sony selected DoP as a commercial necessity given that they have no control over what DAC their player will be connected to. I think that these figures strongly support my view.

* HDTT's master list of DSD DACS

 

OK, posted on October 21, 2016 at 20:37:03
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 I am not arguing. Just saying.

 

"always plague their company's products.", posted on October 22, 2016 at 10:20:32
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Sorry, your ideas don't jibe with my experience.

 

puts a load on processing power, posted on October 22, 2016 at 10:42:32
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 How do you know this?
Do you still measure the Image Size in Centimeters after changing tracks on an sacd player?
The Z1 is a fine product, and it's Meant to be used w/Remastering Engine.
That's the whole point, and it works great for my ears.

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 22, 2016 at 18:42:19
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 It does seem as straightforward as that. DoP has become the standard, probably due to the Apple OS only recognizing PCM.

I don't know what would be involved with Sony adding a choice of "raw data" as a USB output. You would think just a check in the box of a menu. The raw data standard being usable for native DSD.

Yes we do use that idiom. We are not so far separated by a common language. :)

The link below is informative, but even it didn't give the downside of DSD. It just said DoP was less than ideal. Have to thank Kal for that.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Does it provide a DSD file in it's native format?, posted on October 22, 2016 at 18:48:12
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Thank you for the info Kal. It was what I was groping for. Appreciate the post.



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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 23, 2016 at 02:34:18
PAR
 Thanks for the link. Isn't dealing with the "less than ideal" the motif of the audio hobby?

 

RE: Mytek and Lampizator use Dop. nt, posted on October 23, 2016 at 06:10:04
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Always and in every circumstance.



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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

How to Output to a USB DAC, posted on October 25, 2016 at 08:30:25
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 I received a PM from an Asylee about how difficult it was to set up output to an external DAC. I told him I didn't really know since I won't get my Yggy until tomorrow. Woohoo!

I found the following in the online manual for the HAP;

"Using a USB digital audio device (USB Digital Output)



While a Sony USB digital audio device (USB DAC), such as TA-ZH1ES or CAS-1, is connected to the EXT port on the back of the HDD AUDIO PLAYER, you can output audio signals to the connected USB digital audio device for music playback.

1. Connect a USB digital audio device to the EXT port on the back of the HDD AUDIO PLAYER.
2. Select [Settings] - [Audio Settings] from the Home screen.
3. Select [USB Digital Output].
4. Select [Auto]."

Doesn't seem too hard.

Then there was this for DSD output;

"DSD Output (DoP) settings

While [USB Digital Output] is set to [Auto], you can turn on or off the DSD Output (DoP) function.
On:Enables playback of music files in the DSD formats with the connected USB digital audio device. Select this item if the connected USB audio device supports DoP transfer.Off:Disables playback of music files in the DSD formats with the connected USB digital audio device. Music files in the DSD formats are skipped for playback (factory default setting)."

Also not too hard.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: I have a Z1. Why use an external DAC?, posted on October 26, 2016 at 19:15:41
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Abe it was idiot proof. All I did was connect it, and power it up. The HAP was already set correctly on auto and with DoP off. I didn't have to make any setup inputs on the menu. I don't know if it auto-detected, or those were the factory defaults. The Yggy did auto-detect the USB input. It was as easy as that. Thy Yggy does have warning light if your source is poor, that is it has too much jitter, or it cannot provide a good center frequency. The light is off, so the HAP's input is acceptable.

Listening to music.


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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

When I saw your post with the Z1, posted on October 26, 2016 at 19:33:25
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005

I thought you meant this then I realized the L was missing.I still have my old CAL Sigma2.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: When I saw your post with the Z1, posted on October 27, 2016 at 04:17:40
Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014
 Man I got an Infiniti G35 sitting under a tree right now because I have too many points on my record. Now I'm driving my deceased father's minivan. I don't think an "arrest me red" Z1 would help. :)



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Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

 

RE: When I saw your post with the Z1, posted on October 27, 2016 at 17:46:02
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
 ZL1
That is the car that Motor-Trend preferred to the GTR and this new version is even better with the lighter materials and the magnetic ride control has been upgraded even more..I have a 2004 Mustang GT but it's oxford white but I've been fortunate being I'm not a teen anymore lol.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: When I saw your post with the Z1, posted on October 29, 2016 at 08:26:00
stereo5
Audiophile

Posts: 1356
Location: New England
Joined: June 22, 2008
 WOW!! What a gorgeous car.


"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the
most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."


 

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