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MQA DEMO (long)

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Posted on May 23, 2016 at 20:17:33
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 On This past Saturday (5/21/2016) I gave a demonstration of MQA to the San Antonio River Audio Society. 18 people were present out of a membership of 25.The Equipment was as follows.
The latest B&W 2 way stand mounted speakers. A new Marantz integrated amplifier
The digital chain was as follows
MacBook Pro (Yosemite) running Jriver21. Lightspeed 10G USB cable. Regen powered by an outboard linear power supply. Short Curious USB cable feeding Intona Galvanic Isolater. USB cable provided by Meridian to Meridian Explorer2 MQA dac. Audioquest cable from Meridians 3.5mm output to RCA inputs on the Marantz amplifier.
Music files were from the 2L Audio testbench. Each track was a 16/44file and a MQA file both derived from the original 2L DXD master.
DXD is a 32bit/384khz format. 2L is known for its excellent sonics.
The 16/44 files were so good they made the comparisons rather difficult.
Each track was 3 to 5 minutes long. I would play the 16/44 first and then immediately play the MQA version. I then asked for opinions. Of the 18 people most gave no opinions. There were 5 people who I respect there opinions who did speak up. The word that was used the most describing MQA was natural. A general feeling that this is the way the playback of music should sound. Loud or soft the music just seemed to flow with a feeling of you are there listening to a live performance.
I have listened to all of these tracks several times each and they have an openness to them which is captivating. I think Meridian has something special here and look forward to Tidal streaming MQA. The rumor is that Tidal will include a software decoder in there streaming package. That means we can use any dac we want. Hope it happens soon.
Alan

 

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"Most gave no opinions" ?, posted on May 24, 2016 at 04:57:12
tcell
Audiophile

Posts: 585
Location: Maryland
Joined: September 5, 2003
 What do you mean? They didn't hear a difference? (I guess that would be an opinion). They just sat there? Are you saying only a minority of the 18 could tell the difference? Please elaborate for us.

 

RE: "Most gave no opinions" ?, posted on May 24, 2016 at 07:39:50
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I have no idea why they didn't respond. It is difficult to put into words
what things sound like, especially when you are talking about small differences. This was a very informal demonstration. We will do a more involving demo when Tidal starts streaming MQA. For now you just have to accept the result that 5 people and myself heard a definite improvement in sound using MQA decoding.
Alan

 

Understand completely..., posted on May 24, 2016 at 07:59:19
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 We did a DAC 'shootout'(silly expression or what?) here a our local Audiophile Society meet up and I'd say no more than 4-5 out of 20+ or more people voiced their opinions.

That said, many nodded in agreement when the few did speak up.

When my DAC was played, nobody jumped out of their chair and yelled "Wow! That one sucks!" so I guess my DAC is OK. ;-)




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

I understand both of you, but..., posted on May 24, 2016 at 09:46:11
tcell
Audiophile

Posts: 585
Location: Maryland
Joined: September 5, 2003
 my quick interpretation of what you are saying is that most of the people in the room did not hear an audio revolution occurring in front of them. I am no Golden Ear. I've found that the quality of the recording, mixing and mastering is the only thing I can reliably identify, not the small differences achieved by more bits/Hz or compression algorithms. So my quick take on your quick post is that I likely won't be able to do much with this technology. I feel sorry for the inmates that can hear the differences in the adhesive that is used in different speaker cones! What a miserable life! But clearly I don't have the information/experience required to be sure about MQA. So, keep letting us know how it is going! Thanks

 

OK, first off...., posted on May 24, 2016 at 10:03:34
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 in most if not all cases, these audio meetups mean that folks are listening to a system that are not day-to-day familiar.

Second, the fact that a typical, repressed, introverted audiophile; one who only feels secure sharing opinions while hiding behind a moniker, doesn't jump from their seat and yell 'WOW!' in front of 15-20 people when they hear something that is a small improvement in SQ, should not surprise. :-)






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: OK, first off...., posted on May 24, 2016 at 10:39:53
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 As I have clwarly stated we will not be able to clearly assess MQA until more material is available. I hear the improvements and it is real. You need to try things for yourself to determine if they have any value for you. If you only go by what others say then you will miss out on a lot of good stuff
Alan

 

That's not very comforting to to hear at this late date Alan..., posted on May 24, 2016 at 15:01:57
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Because I've been buying all of this stuff based on what YOU hear. :-)


First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: That's not very comforting to to hear at this late date Alan..., posted on May 24, 2016 at 16:00:00
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 My best friend mostly buys stuff on my advice. When I change my opinion he goes absolutely crazy. My latest thing is old (1950) Western electric and Belding 1842 for interconnects and speaker wire. The current Bob Katz review in Stereophile of active bass traps lists his equipment in his mastering studio. It is completely wire with Mogami cable. He is considered one of the great mastering engineers around. Maybe this whole hi-end cable thing is bull. I have a pair of Western Electric interconnects and they are stunning. I have some Beldin on the way
Alan

 

MQA Versus HQplayer upsampling to DSD512, posted on May 24, 2016 at 20:49:09
Ric Schultz
Manufacturer

Posts: 844
Joined: August 7, 2000
 MQA requires buying a new DAC or maybe new software for some fancy DAC and either streaming or buying new titles to get this "better sound". HQPlayer is a $150 player software (does require very powerful computer to run at DSD512) that, according to many, makes every file you have sound better....whether it is 16/44 or 24/192 or DSD 64 or 128....if you upsample to DSD512 using HQplayer it sounds way better. If this is so, then why would you be interested in a "new format" that will only have certain titles when you can improve everything in existence with HQplayer?

I don't believe there is currently a DAC that has MQA and can play DSD512. But the new Mytek Brooklyn does MQA and DSD256. You should load HQplayer on your computer and play into the Mytek with standard 16/44, MQA version and HQPlayer upsampled to DSD256 version. This would be interesting. I would not bet on the MQA to win.

 

RE: MQA Versus HQplayer upsampling to DSD512, posted on May 25, 2016 at 06:44:05
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 MQA requires buying a new DAC
Tidal is saying they will include a software decoder in there streaming service allowing you to use any dac you want. I have a ladder dac so I can't do DSD
Alan

 

RE: "Most gave no opinions" ?, posted on May 25, 2016 at 16:05:57
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 My experience in both giving lots of demos as a dealer and participating in groups is that only one in three or so really speak up. I'm not surprised. Besides most probably hadn't heard the other gear or the room before so it was a whole new experience. Lots of people don't speak up at these things. No big deal.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

five out of eighteen heard a difference?, posted on May 25, 2016 at 18:46:53
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7956
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
 I just lost what little interest I had in MQA.




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: MQA DEMO (long), posted on May 25, 2016 at 18:56:35
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 So what is the point of a proprietary format that sounds somewhat better than 16/44, when one can use an open format (e.g. FLAC) to listen to the higher res master directly? This is no improvement whatsoever in sound quality. It is, at best a question of bit-bumming, i.e. conserving network bandwidth, a resource that is already effectively free compared to the costs of music production.

As a marketing scam, in the extremely unlikely event this succeeds, MQA might be a brilliant move, but it's nothing that has anything to do with high quality audio.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: MQA DEMO (long), posted on May 25, 2016 at 19:14:52
Isaak J. Garvey
Industry Professional

Posts: 1207
Location: Hollywod, CA
Joined: January 7, 2016
 Jason Stoddard, Schiit Audio:


"If you're to believe (most of) the press, MQA is the greatest thing since sliced bread, an amazing new format that promises an even-more-crystal-clear-window-on-the-artist's-intent. It fixes everything that's wrong with digital! It's a watershed moment for audiophiles!

The implication: everyone needs to get on board, posthaste! All DACs need to support it! Everyone should be gearing up for the revolution!

But wait. Didn't we hear this, not too long ago? Kinda sounds like DSD, right? Because thousands of DSD titles were just around the corner (I mean, hey, DSD was a Sony thing, and they had, what, how many recordings they could release in DSD?) But 3+ years into the DSD revolution, all we have are a handful of recordings. Inquiries about DSD have dropped to nil on our side of the fence. Stick a fork in it, it's done. Call it the last format of the File Era.

Now we're barreling straight into the Streaming Era…and MQA is hailed as the answer to shoving high-res audio down a 16/44.1-sized stream, heralding the musical revolution for all devoted audiophiles.

Hence the definition of insanity. Here we go again.

"Well, but, MQA is totally different from DSD, and SACD, and HDCD, and all the other formats that wanted you to re-buy all of your stuff, because it doesn't have a "D" in it at all, and it makes high-res streamable," some might say. "That means you just gotta subscribe to Tidal, which (has promised to have at some unspecified time) MQA."

Oh, okay. So you don't have to re-buy it. You just have to subscribe to it. Yeah, in a way, this makes sense for the streaming era.

But even the assertion that MQA is the "easiest" new format to acquire has a lot of questions wrapped around it:

When will Tidal offer MQA?
How much will MQA cost? Still $20 a month? Or something else?
How much of Tidal will be MQA? Just a small percentage, or all of it? A lot of the heavy breathing has orbited around the idea of "all of it."
How much are you going to spend on an MQA-enabled DAC? Should this be factored into the reaquisition cost? Hint: of course.

But wait! Now we hear that Warner Music has signed up with MQA. Oh my goodness, the vaults are gonna open wide! Surely this is a sign!

Well, no. This means there are even more questions:

How many titles will Warner Music release in the next year or so? Thousands, or a dozen? Remember, DSD was a Sony thing (as in, they paid NO royalties on it), and they had big vaults, and very little happened on the DSD front.
Will Warner Music be OK with Tidal streaming their MQA stuff on their all-you-can-eat menu?
Will the releases be remastered, and therefore not directly comparable to the old titles?

Remember, an LOI (letter of intent) doesn't cost much. Reissuing a big library…when it might be available on streaming…hmm…

So, to me, it still looks like insanity. Because isn't this what they're saying?

"Hey, just turn over the entire industry to us, and we'll make it all good."

A little extreme? Consider that MQA wants:

Licensing fees from the recording industry
Licensing fees from the digital audio product manufacturers
Hardware access into the DAC or player of your choice (because no software player)
Subscription fees from every listener via Tidal, and/or
re-buying a bunch of stuff re-released by the recording industry

If this isn't turning over the whole industry, I don't know what is.

And, you know what? Turning over the whole industry to accomplish a worthy goal might not be so bad. But it seems that MQA's technical side generates more questions for each one that is answered (hat tip to Michael Lavorgna of Audiostream.) And, well, the measurements don't seem to be very, well, high res:

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2016/01/measurements-mqa-master-quality.html

And that's the big change in formats. Instead of everyone asking "when're you gonna support DSD," it's changed to "when're you gonna support MQA?" With the same level of hyperventilating and implied-"I ain't gonna buy unless you absolutely guarantee you'll support this format, even though there ain't really no content for it yet."

Well, excuse us if we (again) sit on our hands.

Let's wait a bit, and see how this shakes out. If the entire Tidal library is MQA'd (at a reasonable price) within a year, and if Warner releases a few hundred good titles on MQA, then, hmm, maybe it's going somewhere. And you guys can dig up this chapter from last year and say, "ha, you were wrong!"

But if it's 3% of Tidal's library at $40 per month and Warner has 7 great titles out within a year, then yeah, we'll continue…

… to best support the 99.9% of music out there in 16/44.1 PCM."

 

Read more carefully..., posted on May 25, 2016 at 19:51:10
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 5 of 18 claimed they heard a difference.

The rest didn't say one way or the other.

That's tho be expected of audiophiles at a meetup where folks don't know each other well.

Audiophiles live in constant fear that their inability to hear differences various pieces of audio gear will be discovered; differences that may not even exist. The only greater fear is that they will be accused of owning an audio system incapable of resolving differences that also don't exist.





First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: MQA DEMO (long), posted on May 25, 2016 at 20:03:18
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Tidal has indicated that the cost will stay the same. Also they have said that they will include a software decoder in there streaming service which means you can use any dac. The software decoding has been said to be a workable option by the people at Meridian. If these things come to be it could change a lot of what you are predicting. It is of no value to jump the gun. Wait and see

Alan

 

RE: Read more carefully..., posted on May 25, 2016 at 20:06:28
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 By the way, I did not ask the question "Do you hear a difference?" I just wanted there gut feeling of what they were hearing. I did not want to turn this into a shootout. We may do this in the future when more MQA material is available
Alan

 

A decompression algorithm for the wealthy, posted on May 25, 2016 at 20:20:01
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 I am dreaming of that $20000 Meridian MQA Zeppelin boom box in Ferrari Red that kills all traces of treble so I can listen to Diana Krull whine on incessantly about not getting fed enough grapes, as her poor, skinny, delicate little bare fets slip ingratiously off the piano pedals.

All the while, paying Comcast & Tidal absurd sums of money to suck down all the bandwidth so they can convert Nora Jones, and all her other white-washed, housewife Jazz, elevator music "slightly Country" clones to choke up the house & shut down my internet connected hot water heater...








"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Good, because if you had..., posted on May 25, 2016 at 20:23:41
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 they would have likely nodded their heads. ;-)






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

LOL! (nt), posted on May 26, 2016 at 04:40:33
mcondo
Audiophile

Posts: 1411
Joined: May 12, 2002
 *

 

RE: MQA DEMO (long), posted on May 26, 2016 at 05:59:38
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 I have done similar comparisons on 2L software. I gave up because the 44k files sound clearly inferior to the 352k files, played at the native sample rate.

Does the Marantz play 352k files or does it upsample to 384k as some Japnese dacs do unless this is disabled.?

2L records and provide 352k files only, not 384k.

 

RE: MQA Versus HQplayer upsampling to DSD512, posted on May 26, 2016 at 06:03:58
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 ''if you upsample to DSD512 using HQplayer it sounds way better''

Why should we listen to the sound of a player and the sound of upsampling?
This is akin to turning a lousy picture into a good one using digital processing. There is no skill in carrying out the conversion.

 

RE: Read more carefully..., posted on May 26, 2016 at 06:42:16
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 The whale that spouts is the one who gets harpooned....

We are all just people trying to enhance the listening experience. Many of these products are ALL good, and the differences are not so dramatic, once one gets to a certain point.

Couple that with unfamiliar music,....



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

My apologies to ahendler..., posted on May 26, 2016 at 08:51:21
tcell
Audiophile

Posts: 585
Location: Maryland
Joined: September 5, 2003
 I did not mean to open up your post up to all kinds of MQA-banging by the inmates - stuff that we've heard over and over again. I realize you have a work in progress there. Thanks for testing the waters. To everyone else, can't you all just control yourselves about the "proprietary" this and "just like DSD" that? The guy just made a few simple statements. Have a chill Memorial Day weekend and listen to some good music, in whatever format you hold dear! Cheers

 

RE: That's not very comforting to to hear at this late date Alan..., posted on May 26, 2016 at 09:19:55
fmak
Audiophile

Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
 Mogami is to me fine but Belden, not impressive. Look also at the Copper quality.

 

RE: That's not very comforting to to hear at this late date Alan..., posted on May 26, 2016 at 11:46:13
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 "That's not very comforting to to hear at this late date Alan..."
Just me having fun. I have not received the Mogami and Belden cables yet so I can't really comment on them. I do like the Western Electric interconnect. For me there is no real best or worst cable. Each cable has a certain charateristic sound. Sometime I want my system to sound lush and warm or sometimes I want it to sound hyper detailed. I will choose cables to give me that result.I usually will go several months with one set of cables and then will try something else. These changes in charecteristic sound also gives me different insites to the music I am listening to. No one is saying you have to follow this path
Alan

 

RE: Good, because if you had..., posted on May 26, 2016 at 14:29:52
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 The power of suggestion and "heard" mentality. Same for various USB tweaks. ;-)




 

+1 (nt), posted on May 26, 2016 at 15:20:51
13th Duke of Wymbourne
Audiophile

Posts: 2800
Location: Orange Co., Ca
Joined: September 19, 2001
 nt

 

RE: My apologies to ahendler..., posted on May 28, 2016 at 13:59:48
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 Hey, this is the internet. I know what to expect when I post here. But thanks anyway for the apology. Not really your fault
Alan

 

RE: Read more carefully..., posted on May 28, 2016 at 20:12:47
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 23900
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > The whale that spouts is the one who gets harpooned....

That's definitely a no-win situation because the whale that doesn't spout dies of asphyxiation. ;-)

 

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