Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?

Since the beginning of SACD, We have had to accept that 90% of the buyers were not interested in the SACD. They were very happy to just listen to the music through the normal cd layer. This also meant that the customers were not happy about having to pay for the extra special jewel box, extra glass masters and pressing of the two cds together. This meant that we (at least Channel Classics) had to pretty much keep the same price and accept less margin on the sales of SACDs.
Finally with the downloading of DSD files, we could set the price at where it should have been since the beginning. OK, there is less costs of physical cds, but the cost of building the site, storage, download costs, and customer service actually brings the costs even higher. It is simply not so simple!
Jared Sacks

RE: Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?, posted on May 7, 2015 at 17:58:45
The Duke Audiophile Posts: 536 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 6, 2001	"Finally with the downloading of DSD files, we could set the price where it should have been since the beginning." Wow, that is the biggest bullsh--t story I've heard. More like we'll set the price as high as we can get away with. Hilarious or sad? I don't know.

I'm with Jared, posted on May 7, 2015 at 19:45:37

Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
Since: December 14, 2012

You want to make money with a classical recording? Good luck - the odds are against you. Add it up:

How many days of tracking, and at what cost per day, including engineers who know how to do it. (A small pool, that, and getting smaller every day.)

Small ensemble/soloist, or full orchestra/opera? The latter need huge live rooms, serious mic closets, and engineers who have done it before - all expensive. (That vintage Neumann U47 is worth $8-10k if it's working right. How many did you say you needed? The *tube* for it will set you back $750, thanks to Telefunken USA who are reproducing it; they used to go for $1,000+ **used**.)

Cost to mix with an engineer who has done orchestras before. Then cost of mastering for each delivery medium.

Then Jared's hardware/bandwidth cost for distributing via download or streaming, and let whoever provides that make some money on it as well. (This is not intended to be a charity.)

Balance this against likely sales revenue. How many copies of another Bruckner 7th will you sell? A couple thousand? Oh - by the way, what's your marketing budget; what will it cost you to get the word out and induce people to buy it?

But wait a minute. Who is paying to get it done? The orchestra? Or maybe a co-op effort of the orchestra and the label? Remember, anything involving orchestra outlays has to go past their board. Boards are responsible for raising money to support the orchestra, and they can be understandably hesitant. "You want to spend all that, and you think we'll get it back?" It can be tricky, especially if it's a union shop. (Let's leave aside whether unions are good or bad; for this question, they just "are.")

Fifty years ago, I paid $4.98 to $6.98 for an LP. I don't see $25-30 bucks for a record, in any format, as out of line today. I suspect I'm in the minority.

WW

"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

RE: Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?, posted on May 7, 2015 at 21:12:56

lquam
Audiophile

Posts: 304
Joined: June 30, 2000

LPs were at $7-8 30 years ago (at the dawn of the CD). At that time you saw a spike to $13-15 with the new format, but if you take $8 and adjust for inflation your at $18.54 in 2015. So, music from an inflation perspective is not overpriced. Of course, few buy albums any longer, preferring to buy singles on mp3. So a more apt comparison might be to 45 singles in the 50s and 60s, but even there you got a B-side.

But that's where I'll stop defending music retail. Saying that distributing an album digitally is more expensive is complete BS. If it costs you more, then your doing something stupendously dumb. Whether your selling a physical disk or a download, you still need a website, you still have marketing costs. So what you're left with is the cost of goods sold, and worst case your cost to offer an album download is about 25c. Amazon CloudFront CDN costs 12c/GB. Other CDNs at scale will give you deals that are as little as 1/10th that.

This is really a case of what the market will bare. The music being released in HD digital are the same tired (albeit great) chestnuts that we've all bought on multiple formats already. Yeah, we just have to have Kind of Blue on yet another format at notionally higher quality because we're all a bunch of obsessive with disposable income to support this insanity.

Which does mean that the sales likely are low. Certainly producing jazz and classical is no route to riches, but I object to paying materially more for 24/96 vs. 16/44.1. Charge me for the differential in download and storage costs (although you only need one copy of a file on your CDN origin and that's pennies/month).

Sorry, but the current game with HD digital seems to be a money grab. And because the prices are out of line with iTunes or buying a CD from Amazon and ripping it, it's doomed to be a niche market. You want it to be more? You want the mass consumer to embrace HD digital? Then don't charge more for it. That's no way to create a market.

RE: Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?, posted on May 8, 2015 at 08:02:50

akltam
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: September 29, 2002

I see what you are getting at but

Here is a comparison of HiRez Download cost Versus the cost of selling SACD physical disk again

HiRez download cost (on the left) VS Selling physical SACD disk (on the right)
Cost of building the web site VS setup physical shop for selling.
Cost of Web storage VS cost of renting the physical store.
Cost of Download VS Cost of physical Transport of getting the disk. (including my cost of getting to the store).
Customer service of web site VS Customer service of the physical store.

I don't find any cost for HiRes download that do not have a corresponding cost of selling SACD disk. I would suspect the cost for selling SACD physical disk is actually higher as there are more middle man.

Alan

You are confused !, posted on May 8, 2015 at 08:11:25

akltam
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: September 29, 2002

Hi, Bill Way

The cost you mentioned in making the recording are also required for making a SACD Disk.

If you go to Blue Coast record, they are charging 40/50/60 dollars for a Hi Res Download.

Alan

RE: You are confused !, posted on May 8, 2015 at 10:33:56

Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
Since: December 14, 2012

I am often confused.

My point was that $25-$35 didn't seem unreasonable, regardless of the delivery medium. No, I had not seen $60 downloads. Looking through the Blue Cloud list, I see lots of $15 and $20 albums, and some more expensive. I don't automatically categorize the more expensive ones as rip-offs; more likely they were projects they wanted to do even though sales were likely to be very small.

I salute them for doing it. At least *someone* in the performance/production chain is getting paid, and I hope the artist is getting a good chunk of it. If it's not a good value for you, then move on; we each pick our poison.

Cheers,
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

I really agree with you: the most popular SACDs are rock, posted on May 8, 2015 at 14:45:48

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

and those seemed to be pressed in the same quantities as classical & jazz

With especially small runs of physical discs, (it costs more to press small quantities), everything points to higher expenses to manufacture physical discs.

Downloading hi-rez files is a very perilous endeavor. I will not even consider it until I am certain that I have an excellent measuring tool to prove that the file is actually what is claimed.

There is way too much evidence from folks who've been ripped off by companies like HDTracks.

What one gets with a download is so much less, and of such lower value, it's crazy that it costs anywhere near the price.

Finally, - when top tier players are involved, SACDs simply sound better.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

"we could set the price at where it should have been since the beginning", posted on May 8, 2015 at 14:48:59
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	Right..... At $6.99 per disc/download.......... "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

tangible ..., posted on May 8, 2015 at 15:02:22
TBone Audiophile Posts: 4197 Joined: April 5, 2000	physical media should be worth more ... such a shame (or sham to some) the current state of downloads, esp considering the latest head scratching justifications for increased pricing ... Why this industry continues to shoot itself in the foot is beyond me.

My Sony HAPZ1 sounds better on Downloads than my 5400/VSE. , posted on May 8, 2015 at 15:06:04
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	Maybe it can't, but it does. I'm loving Downloads, and I also use Audirvana+ and JRiver MC20 for Mac, terrific results. I got one bad Download from HD Tracs a few years ago, Africa Brass. I've compared SACD with Download of same title, and DSD128 sounds better than any SACD, on my system/ears. CDs played as DSD128 Files are also terrific.

What specific recordings you've used for comparison?, posted on May 8, 2015 at 19:01:40
jeromelang Audiophile Posts: 2303 Joined: February 2, 2001	And also, what's the setup configuration for both like, may I ask?

Company like Blue Coast records...., posted on May 8, 2015 at 23:28:18
jazz1 Audiophile Posts: 2891 Joined: October 30, 2000	Aim their sales towards audiophiles not music lovers Andiophiles are always prepared to pay stupid prices for second rate music

Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 9, 2015 at 07:53:35

cookiemarenco
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Joined: December 13, 2010

Thank you for a discussion on pricing and our company, Blue Coast Records. Our parent company, Blue Coast Music Group oversees distribution for other labels at http://downloadsnow.net.

To answer the question about the pricing of our downloads...

If you are on our weekly mailing list or visit us frequently, you'll see that all new releases have an 8 week intro price with a substantial discount period-as much as 50%. We have been offering a 20% rebate for anyone willing to forward a paypal receipt for more than 3 months. Some people choose not to use this rebate. Twice a year we offer a "Buy One Get One Free".

We also offer at least 3 free new music downloads each month from the catalog. There is also a half price store. You can find these at http://bluecoastmusic.com These rebates and discounts are not to hard to find if you look.

We find that those that complain about the pricing are those that don't want to buy our music. How do we know? We've offered BOGOFs on many forums where this same discussion comes up (here in fact last year) and not one person asked for the free download. That's fine. No problem. If you don't like the music, I understand. But find another excuse than pricing. If you have a hardship, please write to us.. we will work with you if you enjoy our music.

During the last 15 years, music has been commoditized for the purpose of selling gear and electronic gadgets. Companies like Apple and Walmart can afford to lose money on music in order to get you to walk in the door or buy a new iPhone every 2 years.

The musicians, skilled engineers and great recording studios have taken the brunt of this commoditization. Consumers are willing to pay for gadgets and gear while not willing to pay for music creation. It's vicious cycle downward that leads to the end of great musicianship and production.

Quality products come with a price. No one forces someone to choose a $50 bottle of wine at dinner or pay $50,000 for a car or $5 for a latte at Starbucks. Some people pay $3 for a bottle of water.

Shouldn't music have that same right? To not be commoditized as valueless?

When recordings are selling in the thousands, a company can afford to take a lower margin and recoup costs of a recording. However, these days, unless you're a pop or hiphop recording, you can expect a "good" selling recording to be in the low-mid hundreds. HUNDREDS, not thousands. HUNDREDS. Let me repeat... 100 units is a good selling title.

We do better than most when it comes to selling indie label titles. How do I know? The indies tell me what they've sold elsewhere.

A recording/mix/mastering for a small group might cost $10,000 to $150,000. An orchestral recording as with the SF Symphony could cost over $300,000. A pop recording more than $500,000. Nowadays, many musicians are recording in their bedrooms and lack good equipment or skills for engineering. Those are fine, but many are not suitable for playing on a $10000 or more listening system. You might as well get $100 computer speakers for those recordings and listen on YouTube. (By the way, most of our recordings can be heard at no charge on YouTube).

If you do the math for sale vs production costs, you'll notice that most recordings lose money. Labels and distributors count on one hit every year or two to get by.

Replication for SACDs has an upfront cost 2-5x higher than CDs and requires substantial upfront investment. Sell through could take years and require storage costs. Good vinyl has even more upfront costs and more difficult to store. Our Blue Coast Records SACDs cost $40 unless on sale. We don't believe one price fits all.

While high resolution downloads have a lower barrier to getting projects to consumer, the costs are more over time. Every website created for sales has ongoing maintenance to support every new computer operating system, cloud storage fees, viruses and security issues. Customer service is labor intensive and we pride ourselves in ours.

I believe great music and sound recordings will cease to exist without higher prices. MP3 was nearly the demise of great recording studios... streaming audio is the final blow. Recording art and musicianship is being relegated to a hobby. We are trying to stop that spiral down.

Here's what I predict. Many won't like it. Don't shoot the messenger. :) You may not see it happening right away or recognize what's going on.

Twenty years ago, no one would think of paying for TV. Now, we see the unbundling of HBO. HBO has created shows that a small niche of people are willing to pay more for in order to get better programming. ESPN is controlling sports for the sports enthusiast. Trying to watch the world series last year was a nightmare unless you're willing to pay.

Gone are the days of millions of focused consumers buying popular products. Coming are the days of higher prices for specialized niche products. Products of higher quality (however you define that) add value to the consumer willing to pay the price for their passion.

A company or artform survives where enough consumers are willing to pay "X" to keep an entity in business. Whether wine, beer, cars, sports, tv or music there will be a disparity between the lower and higher priced products.

It's going to be an interesting next decade.

If anyone wants to discuss further, write to us directly at support@bluecoastmusic.com

Best to everyone,
Cooke Marenco
Founder Blue Coast Music Group

Blue Coast Music Group

Hi Cookie! I Love your work!, posted on May 9, 2015 at 09:23:55
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	Great to hear from you here, I'm a supporter. Best, Jim D, SF Ballet orch

Will do, by end of weekend. nt, posted on May 9, 2015 at 10:39:36
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

RE: Hi Cookie! I Love your work!, posted on May 9, 2015 at 13:18:17

cookiemarenco
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Joined: December 13, 2010

Thank you, Jim!
I appreciate your response. :)
Cookie

Blue Coast Music Group

I am one of your customer ..., posted on May 9, 2015 at 23:23:52

akltam
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: September 29, 2002

Hi Cookie,

The comment about 40/50/60 dollars was a reply to 'Bill Way' that today's download can be of that magnitude in cost.

It is no mean saying it does not worth that or anyone who thinks that is expensive will not buy it. I regret if I cause anyone hard feelings here.

If you check my moniker, you will notice that I am also one of your download customer a few times. And I congratulate you for bringing along high quality recordings to the public.

But to my original comment. I still think the cost of selling SACD disk is more than HiRes Download. And yet, I find download is selling for more than that the physical disk.

One way to ensure the success of HiRes Download is to make it more attractive. And cost is certainly one of them.

Also seems you're pulled your catalog off of QOBUZ's streaming site..., posted on May 10, 2015 at 07:40:11

Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

from full albums to 30 sec. of each track.

Guessing you don't feel the future is in streaming?

Or is it the fact that QOBUZ is in rocky financial condition? Some of the new BIS releases are also no longer available on QOBUZ as full albums. All of CHANDOS was gone for a while and now many are back.

Still see some of your older stuff up for streaming on TIDAL.

Just curious.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: My Sony HAPZ1 sounds better on Downloads than my 5400/VSE. , posted on May 11, 2015 at 00:00:09
jazz1 Audiophile Posts: 2891 Joined: October 30, 2000	I also have a Sony 5400 VSE and my downloads played through my PC and DAC sound better than my 5400, I think that the time has arrived to retire the cd player.

Same Question, posted on May 11, 2015 at 06:45:01
jeromelang Audiophile Posts: 2303 Joined: February 2, 2001	Which specific recordings did you used for comparisons? And also, do you use any special wiring from the Z1ES?

RE: Same Question, posted on May 11, 2015 at 06:58:07
jazz1 Audiophile Posts: 2891 Joined: October 30, 2000	Everything sounds better via the PC/DAC combination. A no brainer.

RE: You are confused !, posted on May 11, 2015 at 07:00:23
jazz1 Audiophile Posts: 2891 Joined: October 30, 2000	Tell me does the artist get more money on a DSD download versus a MP3 download??

RE: What specific recordings you've used for comparison?, posted on May 11, 2015 at 07:26:54

oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002

Firstly, I use the RCA Outs on both.
I also have a Stock 5400, and tried the Balanced outs, but they are the same 2V output level as the RCA's, same on HAP Z1.
Balanced is supposed to be twice the Voltage as RCA, and it sounded weak and wimpy, even with Volume increased, compared to RCA.
I don't know why they do it that way.
Some SACD/CD/File comparisons include:
The Door/Keb Mo, The Nightfly/Fagen,
West Side Story/SFS, Somewhere/Jarret,
West Side Story/Oscar Peterson.
24/96/192, SACD better than CD,
PCM Files up-converted to DSD better than CD or PCM File Playback, DSD Files Better yet, and DSD 128 the best I've heard here.
A slight difference between DSD128 created with Audio Gate,
and the Z1 up-converting to DSD 128.
Usually I just let the Z1 to the Math.
I also record my own live DSD 64 Files with Sony D100.
I use Audirvan + and JRiver MC 20 for Mac for Computer Playback
with Mytek 192/DSD Dac, in a separate system.
I use the Upsampling on the Mytek for PCM ( Directv Satellite Box), and play DSD 128 Files on the A+.
Everytime I've compared with the Mytek, I also like DSD 128 best.
I haven't bought any Disc in months, and only occasionally listen to CDs or SACDs anymore.
I do listen to LPs, and will be recording some onto my D100, for DSD File Playback on Sony or Mytek.
Downloads are not all in the $50 range, many are as little as $10.
I've only got one dud, a few years ago, Africa Brass .
I'm very happy with Download Quality and File Playback.
I've read a couple of reviews of DSD 256 Dacs, I would like to go that route sometime.

Z1 also replaced my little Sony Tuner w/Radio X Mods, posted on May 11, 2015 at 08:25:06
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	Internet radio on the Z1 is plenty good enough for me, no FM distortion, the Linn Station sound great, among others.

RE: "My Sony HAPZ1....", posted on May 11, 2015 at 08:45:04
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	Does it allow streaming from services like QOBUZ, SPOTIFY and TIDAL? Would think it would require an app for that unless it was AirPlay friendly and you could stream from an app on your computer as both TIDAL and QOBUZ require an app to stream 16/44.1, OK you can steam TIDAL from Chrome browser but still. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: You are confused !, posted on May 11, 2015 at 09:42:42

Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
Since: December 14, 2012

I don't know of any DSD sites that let artists upload their music for streaming. If you know of any, take a look at them and let us know.

Streaming royalties at sites like Spotify and Pandora run between $0.006 and $0.0084 per stream. This week, an appeals court upheld a lower court's decision against ASCAP, which had sued Pandora for higher reimbursement rates. There is a pretty good breakdown of the royalty payments at the link.

My big concern, with apologies to the OP for hijacking the original thread, is that the current streaming royalty system isn't sustainable. Songwriters and performers cannot make a living from their recordings. Instead, they have to make recordings and get them on to the streaming sites as a way to market live concerts. (It used to be the opposite: performers used to do concerts to promote recordings.) Given that gigs at local clubs can't pay much of anything, artists have to become big enough to do arenas before they can make money from their work.

A corollary to this is the often heard belief that "music should be free." A significant chunk of the music-listening population are used to either free music, or music so cheap as to be virtually free. It's a nice thought, until you take the artists into account. This has to change, and there are signs of progress. David Byrne joining the board of SoundExchange, which administers Pandora's royalties, is a step in the right direction.

WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

Understatement piece on Pandora royalties

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 11, 2015 at 09:49:39

Dave_K

To answer the question about the pricing of our downloads...

If you are on our weekly mailing list or visit us frequently, you'll see that all new releases have an 8 week intro price with a substantial discount period-as much as 50%. We have been offering a 20% rebate for anyone willing to forward a paypal receipt for more than 3 months. Some people choose not to use this rebate. Twice a year we offer a "Buy One Get One Free".

We also offer at least 3 free new music downloads each month from the catalog. There is also a half price store. You can find these at http://bluecoastmusic.com These rebates and discounts are not to hard to find if you look.

We find that those that complain about the pricing are those that don't want to buy our music. How do we know? We've offered BOGOFs on many forums where this same discussion comes up (here in fact last year) and not one person asked for the free download. That's fine. No problem. If you don't like the music, I understand. But find another excuse than pricing. If you have a hardship, please write to us.. we will work with you if you enjoy our music.

I can't speak for everyone, but I find these sales tactics to be a real turn-off and it's one of the main reasons why I've mostly stopped buying from HD Tracks and haven't purchased anything from you yet. I'm not buying a car, just some music, and I don't have much patience for this stuff.

I don't want to be on anyone's mailing list. I don't want to get promotional emails every other day to advise me of what titles are discounted that week. I don't want to be offered discount "passes" to try to get me to buy something right now. And I don't want to have to scour sites for deals, or have to click through a bunch of "special offers" to get at the catalog. All of these sales tactics are annoying and a big turn-off and all they accomplish is making me second guess a purchasing decision because there might be a better deal tomorrow.

While high resolution downloads have a lower barrier to getting projects to consumer, the costs are more over time. Every website created for sales has ongoing maintenance to support every new computer operating system, cloud storage fees, viruses and security issues. Customer service is labor intensive and we pride ourselves in ours.

It makes no practical sense for a small business like yours to be developing and maintaining your own e-commerce site. And I think you would reach a wider audience if your records were available on a bigger audiophile site like HD Tracks, or a more mainstream site like Amazon.

Gone are the days of millions of focused consumers buying popular products. Coming are the days of higher prices for specialized niche products. Products of higher quality (however you define that) add value to the consumer willing to pay the price for their passion.

A company or artform survives where enough consumers are willing to pay "X" to keep an entity in business. Whether wine, beer, cars, sports, tv or music there will be a disparity between the lower and higher priced products.

I am happy to pay more for a high quality product. But I'm not willing to pay more just for a higher resolution delivery format. That is just one small factor in the recording quality. One of the other reasons why I've nearly stopped buying hi-res downloads is that the quality is all over the place.

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 11, 2015 at 10:14:51

cookiemarenco
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Joined: December 13, 2010

Hi Dave, thank you for responding.

If you're happy with iTunes and Spoltify, that's fine. I'm a believer that the original recording methods have more to do with overall sound quality than the format. On that we agree. Which is also why we offer 44.1 files at comparable pricing to iTunes downloads. We let the customer decide which format to enjoy.

We're not trying to convince anyone to move to a high resolution listening format, but we are trying to satisfy our buying customers. Currently, our best selling format is DSD128. While you may not agree, this is what is sustaining our business. It's growing. If people wouldn't be buying we wouldn't be selling and we wouldn't be in business.

About HDtracks... when we first decided to sell downloads in 2008, we approached them and never got a return response. Because the demand was high for our music in high rez, we figured out a way to sell downloads ourselves. That was one of our smarter moves to sustaining a music label business.

Next to consider is that HDtracks does not offer DSD downloads for sale and does not distribute worldwide. 80% of our market is outside of the USA. Pricing flexibility is also not offered at HDtracks or most of the download sites. Without it, we can't offer sales, rebates, free goods without their approval first. All these things have contributed to having a sustainable and growing business.

We may not have the visibility and promotional money that HDtracks has, but we don't have the associated expenses and licensing fees/territory restrictions major labels impose.

I'm happy to report that all of our labels have reported much higher sales with us than any other distribution outlet.

Our business model is working for us, maybe not for you. We're ok with that. We're not looking to convert you to buying our music. That's up to you. There are plenty of music sites out there for you to enjoy.

Enjoy your listening!
Cookie Marenco
Blue Coast Music Group
http://bluecoastmusic.com

Blue Coast Music Group

You fellows find yourselves in a fine fix. (nt), posted on May 11, 2015 at 10:29:14
samtellig	(nt)

The OP's premise is false, not all are more than discs., posted on May 11, 2015 at 10:32:53
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	A Tempest in a Teapot, tho a good sounding one. Not that you will be checking it out!

Chaos. I love it! Streams today, dry tomorrow. (nt), posted on May 11, 2015 at 11:18:26
samtellig	(nt)

Anything positive to contribute, or just some pot-shots from the troll bridge?, posted on May 11, 2015 at 17:14:57
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

Yes, positive advice. Stay away from paid streaming services for now ...until, posted on May 11, 2015 at 17:57:52
samtellig	we figure out which rap star is fronting for what and which services are likely to be around tomorrow. Streams today, dry tomorrow. Meanwhile, they have your credit card number. Sounds like yet another audio ripoff to me.

OK, I get it. nt, posted on May 11, 2015 at 18:02:13
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 11, 2015 at 18:58:03

Dave_K

Thanks for the explanation re: HD Tracks.

I was an early adopter of SACD and to a lesser extent DVD-A. I was also an early consumer of hi-res downloads and so far I've spent a couple grand on downloads. Like I said, I am happy to pay more for a better product. A lot of that money has gone to HD Tracks. I'll admit that my waning support is mostly due to the experiences I've had with them.

Aside from the sales tactics, my biggest gripe is wildly varying quality. There have been upsampled 44.1k recordings, hi-res remasters of classic recordings which have been compressed like modern pop recordings, and other related ills. I started to feel like I was playing the lottery, hoping for that elusive gem. I've had more success finding quality by seeking out old (non-remastered) CD pressings and certain imports than hi-res downloads.

I won't buy anything from HD Tracks anymore unless someone else has already dissected the release and I can find an FFT and DR stats and some listening comparisons to other releases. No more of this buyer beware we just post whatever the label gives us and don't forget your 20% discount pass is going to expire if you don't buy today. And I just don't have the time & patience to do that research except for titles that are practically a must-buy for me.

One thing that would help sell me on the product is providing the provenance of the release. This is where you have an advantage. I have a few of your CDs (but no downloads) and I know a bit about how you produce music, so I have more confidence. With HD Tracks, they get their content from the labels and don't seem to ask any questions; it's quantity over quality.

I realize that people like you and Jared are trying to maintain high standards in an industry where it seems like production quality has been on an extended downturn and consumers don't want to pay for music anymore. It can't be easy. But $40-50 is a lot to ask, and I will only pay that much if it's great music and demo quality sound.

RE: "Meanwhile, they have your credit card number."..., posted on May 11, 2015 at 19:02:33
Ivan303 Audiophile Posts: 48887 Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM Joined: February 26, 2001	No, PayPal has my credit card number, not QOBUZ. And I'm certainly getting my money's worth out of QOBUZ. TIDAL? Not so much and may drop it soon. First they came for the dumb-asses And I did not speak out Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?, posted on May 11, 2015 at 19:35:26

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

Well there's no getting away from the fact that songs are now a $.99 cent commodity, but in a dessicated form. So they want to charge you two bucks and change per song in a form that is far superior? Makes sense. You get much more improvement than just a 100% increase. Now if the record companies want to bait and switch you, and shovel you crap, and ask good money for it? It wouldn't be the first time.

Hey, you can get Elvis songs for $1 in DSD. What's wrong with that picture?

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

Sam's just an old crank..., posted on May 11, 2015 at 19:42:03

Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001

It's OK to ignore him. I understand he used to write for one of the Audiophile magazines so that makes him an expert.

Regards streaming, as long as you don't pay in advance, what's the risk.

You get 1 month free from most providers. If one can't figure out whether one streams enough music to make it worth the money, there may be no hope.

I was one of the first users of MOG which became BEATS which may become iTunes. I found MOG to be superior to Spotify (user interface and search) but once they became BEATS, all bets were off and I dumped them.

I had already signed up for QOBUZ while in Europe a couple summers ago and REALLY like their interface and search functions. Search by record label is an outstanding feature and a return in the thousands when searching by composer is outrageously great! SQ streaming at 16/44.1 is great but not TWICE as good as Spotify at 320kbps on a laptop with cans but is quite a bit better into a USB DAC in my main system.

TIDAL is just a waste of money, but not much at $19 a month. It works on the SONOS and QOBUZ doesn't. OTOH, Spotify does and on a SONOS speaker in the kitchen, who can tell the difference? Not me.

First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

RE: What specific recordings you've used for comparison?, posted on May 11, 2015 at 19:54:04

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

Thanks for the write up. I keep being struck by the resolution coming out of my speakers when I play Beck's Sea Change in DSD. I've never heard an album sound like that. Only it's crippled by dynamic compression. You can't turn it up.

RBCDs will be around for a long time, but man are they beat.

-------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 11, 2015 at 20:06:32
Mr_Steady Audiophile Posts: 2042 Location: North Florida Joined: August 19, 2014	Cookie, I think I will take you up on the free song offer. Thanks! I like how your site sells individual songs. --------------------------------------------- Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

RE: Sam's just an old crank..., posted on May 12, 2015 at 03:02:48
Dave_K	Yeah, I can't figure out what risk I'm taking either. I don't care about the ownership, just the service.

"How many copies of another Bruckner 7th will you sell?", posted on May 12, 2015 at 04:05:03

Dave_K

This is part of the problem with classical music. It seems to me that the buyers and patrons who keep classical music afloat just want to hear the same familiar music over and over. As a result, the directors of the major orchestras tend to be extraordinarily conservative in their music selections. I used to attend the BSO a lot, but have grown tired of it because the music and the scene is just stale. I get more more enjoyment from conservatory performances of actual new music, even if it's just viewing on YouTube.

Same for the labels producing classical recordings. I don't care if someone releases the undisputed best recording of Bruckner's 7th ever, confirmed by every audiophile. It's still just another recording of Bruckner's 7th. Similarly, why would anybody bother recording Beethoven or Mahler symphonies anymore? Doesn't everybody with at least a passing interest in classical music already have a sufficient catalog of their war horses?

So if you want to sell me another version of a major work such as Bruckner's 7th or Handel's Messiah, for which most of us already have at least one recording of, and given there are numerous other recordings already available on CD for $10-12, tell me what is so special about your $25 version that it not only demands a listen but is worth two other versions?

And don't even get me started on the endless remasters of classic rock.

RE: "How many copies of another Bruckner 7th will you sell?", posted on May 12, 2015 at 09:56:15

Bill Way
Audiophile

Posts: 1884
Location: Toms River NJ
Joined: May 28, 2012
Contributor
Since: December 14, 2012

Dave, I agree completely. What I was trying to say is that "another Bruckner 7th" won't sell may copies. It may be a great performance, it may be a great recording, and I may want it, but sales volume will be limited. Personally, I'd like to have every recording of good performances of everything.

As for remasters of classic rock or pop, if there is a reason to re-master them, I'm for it and I'll probably want it. A good example is the Berkowitz/Magee mono remastering of the Beatles. I think it probably comes closer to what the original team tried to achieve. There are also labels that use the term "remastered" as a bit of marketing hype to otherwise moribund old recordings a little sales boost.

Cheers,
WW
"Put on your high heeled sneakers. Baby, we''re goin'' out tonight.

The subject is a comparison betwn DSD downloads & SACD, posted on May 12, 2015 at 10:34:07

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

In no world should a hi-rez download be more than a physical disc, with all that the physical disc contains, and all that the download does not.

There isn't a viable argument, in any world, where a download is more expensive. The one point that you brought up that deals with the OP at all is a point in FAVOR of SACDs being more expensive.

""We find that those that complain about the pricing are those that don't want to buy our music.""

To be clear, the OP, (& I agree), are not complaining about PRICING, we are complaining about relative, comparative value between 2 types of media.

I have ZERO issue paying $40 for a Peter Gabriel or Dead Can Dance SACD. It brings to me WAY MORE than $28 value in difference in cost between the redbook & SACD version. IF, (and that's a big if), Peter Gabriel DSD files would be available for download, - it would be MUCH LOWER value than the SACD: and would need to be closer to the same cost of the redbook CD version, before it would have the same level of value.

""I believe great music and sound recordings will cease to exist without higher prices. MP3 was nearly the demise of great recording studios... streaming audio is the final blow. Recording art and musicianship is being relegated to a hobby.""

That is so true: and there's so much evidence to support that. But again, we're not talking about higher prices, but the price of downloads being too high compared to SACDs. But your audience, and your consumers are those who are NECESSARILY going to be comparing DSD downloads to SACDs. And they are NOT going to pay MORE for less. The mass market has no idea what SACDs OR hi-rez downloads are. So your audience is ONLY people who, (at least at this time), are going to be familiar with the value of SACDs, & whether or not their price is of more value than redbook CDs.

Compounding the problem is HDTracks: whose deceit has dramatically harmed hi-rez downloads, investment in the equipment, & created extreme distrust with consumers.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 12, 2015 at 10:48:08

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

""I won't buy anything from HD Tracks anymore unless someone else has already dissected the release and I can find an FFT and DR stats and some listening comparisons to other releases. No more of this buyer beware we just post whatever the label gives us and don't forget your 20% discount pass is going to expire if you don't buy today. And I just don't have the time & patience to do that research except for titles that are practically a must-buy for me.""

Incredibly well said, and excellent argument against this horrible, and deceitful company.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

And did you compensated for inverted absolute polarity on the Z1ES...?, posted on May 12, 2015 at 18:04:04
jeromelang Audiophile Posts: 2303 Joined: February 2, 2001	As far as I know, the long promised firmware to fix that issue hasn't been released yet. And the other thing is: 2xDSD upsampling cause a drain on the unit's dsp, all of us who had listened to it prefer to have it switched off so that the player sound more energetic and firmer. Upsampling also introduce harmonic artifacts which muddy transients we feel. Z

Cookie!, posted on May 12, 2015 at 20:07:36
c1ferrari Audiophile Posts: 640 Location: Southern California Joined: March 16, 2001	That was inspired and brilliant. Vbr, Sam

RE: Cookie!, posted on May 12, 2015 at 20:31:34

cookiemarenco
Industry Professional

Posts: 11
Joined: December 13, 2010

Thank you. :)

Cookie Marenco
Blue Coast Records
http://bluecoastrecords.com

Blue Coast Records

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 13, 2015 at 03:42:48

jamestavegia@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: November 26, 2013

I don't worry about the price of downloads per se, as much as what it is I am buying. When music was and is cheap you can buy something on a whim, enjoy it and put it away. I look at my CD collection and look at all the discs that don't get played very often any more. THAT does bother me.

Now my download choices are BlueCoast, Linn, eclassical, and my buys from SoundKeeper Recordings. I now preview more and consider is the music good enough and performed well enough for me to want to listen to it repeatedly? It is not any more about is the recording good enough to make me really enjoy my time listening? From these folks the recording quality is the highest there is, period. I don't worry that something was copied up to 2496 or more for marketing purposes. That boxed was checked long ago.

Some recordings do not tax my systems as my gear is often better than the the recording and/or the material, but with the companies mentioned above, I know my gear is the weakest link, but still makes those performances as live and real as they can be within my gear budget. I am amazed on a daily basis at what I hear from these recordings through my lowly Steinberg $150 UR-22 24/192 usb interface and my AKG 701's. I just consider all that music I have bought to be an incredible value and look to buy more as my budget permits. And today with this Steinberg unit one does not have to spend crazy money to enjoy it...it is not just a rich man's game anymore. You could be sitting on a park bench with a laptop and this UR-22 and have the best there is. Who could not want that?

I still buy some vinyl from time to time, but from now on downloads will get more of my music money. Seems like a better value to me. And if they are 2496 I can burn them to DVD-Rs myself and enjoy them on all my DVD players, and not just my computer.
Jim Tavegia

I like it as is. nt, posted on May 13, 2015 at 06:25:32
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

So you prefer listening to music in the inverted absolute polarity...?, posted on May 13, 2015 at 07:04:19
jeromelang Audiophile Posts: 2303 Joined: February 2, 2001	And better forget about making comparisons from now on with the Z1ES against the XA5400ES if you are not going to make an effort to ensure both their outputs' absolute polarity are the same.

I recall an earlier post from you when you had , posted on May 13, 2015 at 07:28:49
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	a borrowed Z1, that you used the balanced outs. Yes?

OK, I'm taking your advice-, posted on May 13, 2015 at 08:23:34
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	for the Z1, I've switched the red/black on both speakers, doesn't that invert polarity? Or is there more to it?

RE: So you prefer listening to music in the inverted absolute polarity...?, posted on May 13, 2015 at 08:25:33
Mr_Steady Audiophile Posts: 2042 Location: North Florida Joined: August 19, 2014	Okay, so just reverse the wires on your speaker input. Problem solved. ----------------------------------------------------- Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

RE: OK, I'm taking your advice-, posted on May 13, 2015 at 08:28:00
Mr_Steady Audiophile Posts: 2042 Location: North Florida Joined: August 19, 2014	Jinx one two three. From what I understand you can't hear reversed absolute polarity. -------------------------------------- Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

Well,, posted on May 13, 2015 at 08:41:33

oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002

I switched the speaker leads, and damn if "Travelogue", with Ralph Towner, doesn't
sound amazingly 3 dimensional and fantastic, not even one of my fav recordings for
sound quality before, pretty laid back, even foggy previously.
I still use Remastering Engine, Precision Upsampling and DSEE for PCM Files ( this one is 24/88 ).
I can't really spend anymore time with it today, but tomorrow will test it as rigorously as I can.
A bit of fun.
Will report.

RE: The subject is a comparison betwn DSD downloads & SACD, posted on May 13, 2015 at 08:55:36

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

Value is subjective. If one pays a higher price for product A when he could have purchased product B for less, the transaction is strong evidence that the purchaser placed more value on product A.

It may not be "viable", but I've bought a number of downloads at prices higher than the SACD price. There are a few good reasons for this behavior:

1. I get the music now, not after driving miles to a record store
2. I don't pay postage or gas
3. I get the recording without DRM
4. I don't have, nor will I ever buy, an SACD player or an SACD disk (because of DRM).
5. I lack conveniently accessible storage space to hold physical media.
6. I hate the damn shrink wrapping
7. I detest the tiny artwork that comes with CDs and SACDs.

Others have different preferences. That's why people buy and sell.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Well,, posted on May 13, 2015 at 09:06:59
Mr_Steady Audiophile Posts: 2042 Location: North Florida Joined: August 19, 2014	Duly Noted. FWIW, when I use my preamp that reverses polarity, I reverse the input leads to my speakers. I did not know the Z1 reverses absolute polarity. Let us know about your observations when you get a chance. I should not be doing this at work, cause I just got busted by the boss. -------------------------------------------------- Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

RE: Well,, posted on May 13, 2015 at 09:15:05
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	Jerome has some off the beaten track ideas, but this is worth a try, maybe it won't pan out, maybe it will, but it's easy to try or put back. First Impressions aren't always right, I haven't changed it back yet, but will listen more tomorrow. I didn't know about the reversal on the Z1 either, I don't know how Jerome finds this stuff out!

Yes, I had only used the balanced out, posted on May 13, 2015 at 09:30:06

jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001

- A big bulk of our listening involved around comparisons between dsd files of different ways of ripping sacd disc via a PS3 - yes, that's right, different ways of process/preparation while ripping did affect sonic results very audibly.

So, my advise is - stick to dsd downloads to feed your Z1ES.

A few things we found out:

- Playing the same dsd file track loaded on the Z1ES twice in a row will audibly degrade sound quality. Where the first time play was smooth and musical, if you skip back to start playing the same track from the beginning again, it will acquire a nervy fatiguing artifact. To get around this problem, you just need to select a different track to play first (any duration of play will do), then go back and re select that desired track again. This will avoid the sound degradation I mentioned. The jog dial and menu screen helps facilitate this. Shutting down and restart the unit prior to playing each track sounds best, of course.

- Switching off dsd up sampling function (and PCM to dsd) improves sound quality for the player while playing dsd files.

- If you are going to use balanced connections, make sure the XLR terminals to be connected at the player, the hot and cold pins are swapped. This is the best way to ensure correct absolute polarity downstream while avoiding the pitfalls of cabling and component signal flow directionality getting reversed.

Reverting to single ended RCA connection won't get you correct absolute polarity because the problem occurs in the digital domain within the player.

Without correcting for the Z1ES's inversion of absolute polarity, the sound was pleasant enough, polite, almost too polite, and uninvolving....

Well, that's my point, RCA out is better. Your, posted on May 13, 2015 at 09:37:05
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	Polarity comment got me thinking, and I've reversed both speaker connections, and so far I'm loving it! More testing tomorrow when I'll have more time. Travel Guide/Ralph Towner and Somewhere/Keith Jarret are sounding 3 dimensional and generally awesome. I haven't switched things back yet, but so far, I'm happy! I don't recall my system sounding this good!

you are a super "advanced" and "savvy" digital file, posted on May 13, 2015 at 11:47:29

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

as well as hardware user..........

You also have the ability to quickly analyze the quality & resolution, (inclusive of compression levels), any downloaded file.

1. There are no more record stores, much less stores that sell SACDs.
One purchases most all SACDs on line.
2. With a $40 title, postage isn't super crazy, - especially if you buy a few.
3. For many, this is not an issue because there's likely only 1 or two places that you can play either the file or the disc. And, - that's what Hybrid SACDs are for.
4. Hybrid
5. There are not that many SACDs available.
6. Ahhh birthdays & Christmas :-)
7. Tiny artwork is better than none, or a link that you can't get to while playing music: cause using the Internet causes lower SQ.
8. For folks who don't have file analyzing software, TRUST has been violated and prejudiced toward hi-rez downloads.

I am being facetious, but I understand and respect your position. And, - I also know that some people like you are getting just as good SQ out of their digital file playback transport as they are from a spinning disc.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: you are a super "advanced" and "savvy" digital file, posted on May 13, 2015 at 16:06:10

Dave_K

All else being equal, I'd rather buy a physical CD and rip it than download the same thing. Only because I like liner notes.

I can't say the same for SACDs. SACD transports are not as common as they used to be, and most of them haven't been particularly reliable. I look at my SACD collection today and wonder how much longer am I going to get to play these? I really should grab a vintage PS3 while I still can.

Inverted Polarity, posted on May 13, 2015 at 17:29:20

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

Well sure enough Jerome, the Z1 does seem to invert the polarity. For the benefit of the reader is a link below.

Having used DSP for crossovers I understand what you say about overtaxing the unit. Usually by heavy stuff like changing the gain. I notice that the remote tablet program for the Z1 has volume controls, but they are disabled. Trying to adjust volume in the digital realm is just the kind of thing that would overburden the DSP. It's one thing I don't get about the Z1. It's like they designed it to be the only source and preamp, but then didn't put a volume knob on it. That's a head scratcher.

Thanks for sharing your findings. The Z1 is new to me, so I haven't tried all the settings, and their permutations, but there is one thing I think I can say unequivocally. Converting and upsampling 44/16 to 2x DSD is the best thing to happen to RBCD since the jewel case. It may be it's best future.

----------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=124280.180

Running Hi Rez PCM, posted on May 13, 2015 at 19:22:02

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

Mark 6,

I got to tell you what I heard tonight, and it's not from the direction I thought.

Yes I reversed the speaker wires. Yes maybe a subtle improvement. I posted a link on previous post, and since the Z1 does invert the polarity, then yes I will compensate for that.

What was most interesting to me tonight was this. I have this 192/24 download of Yes, Close to the Edge from Rhino. I listened to it, and thought they had tilted up the tone/pitch to accentuate the highs. I thought I had wasted my $25 just like Sordidman and others are talking about. After reading Jerome's comments I decided to turn off all the filters as a starting point. No DSEE, conversion to DSD, oversampling. I guess that means I was just running PCM through a one bit Sabre chip? Anyway, the album went from sounding wrong to sounding spot on. More than pleasantly surprised. I had a smile on my face when the pipe organ kicked in. :)

This wasn't the result I expected. All this after that post about 44/16 to DSD. I still agree with that.

---------------------------------------------------------

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

If you are running single ended..., posted on May 14, 2015 at 00:06:08
jeromelang Audiophile Posts: 2303 Joined: February 2, 2001	Make sure you invert absolute polarity only at the power amp's output speaker terminals!

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 14, 2015 at 04:32:16

Dave_K

Now my download choices are BlueCoast, Linn, eclassical, and my buys from SoundKeeper Recordings. I now preview more and consider is the music good enough and performed well enough for me to want to listen to it repeatedly? It is not any more about is the recording good enough to make me really enjoy my time listening? From these folks the recording quality is the highest there is, period. I don't worry that something was copied up to 2496 or more for marketing purposes. That boxed was checked long ago.

How do you make a decision when to spend the extra money for a higher resolution format?

Blue Coast typically charges $15-20 for a 44.1k download. I assume it's 16-bit, but they don't say. Whereas they charge $30-40 for 96k PCM, and $40 for 192k PCM. I assume these are 24-bit, but again they don't say. And they want $40-50 for DSD64 and $50 for DSD128.

I read the arguments from Jared and Cookie explaining why most recordings lose money and why they need to charge more to survive because of their comparably smaller sales volume. I get that. And I think Channel Classics' prices have always been pretty fair. What I don't get and can't get on board with is the big disparity in Blue Coast pricing based solely on download format. If you have to resort to introductory pricing and BOGOF and similar sales tactics to move that hi-res product, it could be an indication that the prices are out of line with what the market will bear.

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 14, 2015 at 05:57:44

jamestavegia@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: November 26, 2013

Much of their PCM 2496 material is $20 which I think is very fair. The fact that their music can be previewed is a big plus as is eclassical. I think $20 is more than fair considering much of their material is starts as DSD. The eclassical pricing is less than that for most of my buys there.

I am not much into re-buying material I already own even if it is remastered, especially when those prices are usually $30 to $40 a pop. My last buy that way was a MFSL SACD of Billy Joel that did not really sound much better than my original lp. Different and with black backgrounds, yes, but not worth the $30 to me. Live and learn.

Reviews can help, but my systems are not up to the same standards of the reviewers so we will not hear the same thing. Someone with a $1k cart, a $2K phono stage and speakers over $10k will hear more than I do.

Now that I am older I am finding more interest in classical music, smaller acoustic ensemble work with vocalists, and more jazz titles. And as I work to created more complete boxed sets of the great composers, many of those can be had on CD for nearly a $1 a disc, a great buy and still very enjoyable. That is what I use Amazon for mostly. I am also not adverse to buying used CDs on occasion.

With a little work one can find affordable high rez files that are the music you really like, and often I am finding there are many artists who are new to me that I can really enjoy, and many of those are on the BlueCoast Records roster of artists. Quiles and Cloud will be my next buy as they are and excellent duo.

Jim Tavegia

RE: you are a super "advanced" and "savvy" digital file, posted on May 14, 2015 at 09:33:29

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

""All else being equal, I'd rather buy a physical CD and rip it than download the same thing. Only because I like liner notes.""

I feel the same: plus, - I don't trust ANY download unless I can verify it with reasonable testing. Since I am "getting out" of computer as transport to play my 2500 or so AIFF albums, I also do not want to invest in testing software.

I have about 50 SACDs & about 10 DVD-A/Dual discs. About 30 of those I really enjoy, play regularly, and will stop the computer & put in the SACD or DVD-A as the quality is enough to where I would enjoy it more.

That being said, I really enjoy my redbook disc quality on the Universal player. IMO, - I am lucky in that my player is a premier redbook player with SACD/DVD-A sounding pretty awesome, - but still as an afterthought. I have heard too many SACD players whose redbook sucks. At no time does computer playback equal the same quality as redbook discs, - but it's not too far off, and I haven't invested a ton of time or money in a dead or dying computer playback noisebox transport.

To people who have hundreds of SACDs and/or DVD-As, - I can see where they'd want a very good SACD spinner. This is especially true as legitimate DSD downloads are looking like a low value product, that will never take hold, and will die on the vine. Any redbook CD has tons more value than any hi-rez download, - IMO.

Any format success has to have a decent amount of Pop/Rock titles.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 14, 2015 at 09:44:17

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

There is no music being sold that cannot be previewed....

Given the current state of this dying economy, - I would hazard that very people are buying anything unheard...

With the horrible new Apple paradigm, - it is set up for the consumer to buy, (and playback) from a small database of individual (favorite) songs: 1 or two songs per artist. It is centered around low quality, so that the consumer can play back that song anywhere, on 1 of 5 to 10 devices.

""With a little work one can find affordable high rez files that are the music you really like""

That is simply not true... As a matter of fact, I think that there are so few hi-rez files to download, that even classical fans would have a hard time finding music with good to great performances available. I think that you need to research further. Even huge, huge, stars like GoldFrapp, Groove Armada, Peter Gabriel, Sting, REM, Rolling Stones, who've already had hi-rez discs made, don't have the Hi-rez download files available...

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

FWIW: chiming in with a big +1 -t, posted on May 14, 2015 at 09:45:35
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	. "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 14, 2015 at 15:53:32

jamestavegia@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: November 26, 2013

I suppose you are right in that you might find it hard to find highrez hip-hop, but the rest is out there if you look. I have no problem finding great highrez material that I LIKE that is affordable for me. And I don't do HD tracks.

And if not downloads, there are still many affordable SACDs off of Amazon if that floats your boat. I have 4 SACD players. I am still filling out my RCA RedSeal SACD collection on occasion. I buy them when the mood hits me, but now with my 24192 usb interface, downloads will rule for me.
Jim Tavegia

"I don't know how Jerome finds this stuff out!", posted on May 14, 2015 at 21:40:50
Metralla Audiophile Posts: 7801 Location: San Jose, California Joined: January 30, 2001	Agreed. Regards, Geoff

RE: Pricing and Costs of SACD and DSD / High Res downloads, posted on May 15, 2015 at 11:30:23
Dave_K	Yes, there are tons of SACDs. However, I do wish I snagged more of the major label SACD and DVD-A releases when I could (e.g. Sony, Universal, Warner stuff), because many of them are long out of print and not available for download.

RE: Yes, positive advice. Stay away from paid streaming services for now ...until, posted on May 16, 2015 at 23:02:08

Jeff Wilson
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Location: USA
Joined: May 16, 2015

The world is and has changed. Like it or not, physical media is going away, and as can be seen downloads will be going away too. The new world is about streaming. Yep, you didn't like you parents music and now one cannot understand streaming. Like it or not, streaming is the future, vinyl, CD, SACD, iTunes, Hi Res downloads, streaming.

Be it Tidal, Spotify or someone else, the future is streaming.

RE: Hi Res Downloads are easy bait for audiophiles, posted on May 18, 2015 at 13:03:43

ydavid
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Joined: December 14, 2005

There is absolutely no justification for charging more than the CDs or SACD release. But audiophiles are easy bait for the Hi Res download bandits. All it takes is a promise of better resolution and they will buy a more expensive copy of something they already have. I took the bait and bought some hi res downloads but let it go after two out of the first three Hi Res downloads I bought had clipping distortion.

How can less than 10,000 SA-CDs & files be representative , posted on May 19, 2015 at 09:46:18

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

of anything....

With that few recordings, - the likelihood of missing someone's favorite, or even likeable stuff is pretty darn high.

From Ornette Coleman to Faudel to the Beatles, - there is no hi-rez.

If your music is represented, that's awesome, I'm happy for you, but that doesn't mean that there is lot of hi-rez out there, and it doesn't mean that there's any kind of variety.

By saying that there's "music for everyone" you're necessarily comparing hi-rez to other formats that actually DO have a wide representation.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

So what titles did you buy? [nt], posted on May 19, 2015 at 11:27:01
Chris from Lafayette Audiophile Posts: 26480 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: February 17, 2004 Contributor Since: February 6, 2012

RE: How can less than 10,000 SA-CDs & files be representative , posted on May 19, 2015 at 13:44:34

jamestavegia@gmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Atlanta, GA
Joined: November 26, 2013

If someone's music is not represented, whose fault is that in 2015? The Artist? The Label? Someone doesn't feel it is worth being reissued, which today is kind of sad as I would bet there are more reissues than new releases. Look how long it took Sony to do Kind Of Blue in SACD, the number one selling jazz album of all time. Those who have a cool thousand or more a month to spend on music may run of stuff to buy. Most of us don't have that luxury.
Jim Tavegia

There is no demand for hi-rez, posted on May 19, 2015 at 14:21:45

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

exactly as you are stating. Ultimately,- it is likely the economy & the massive loss of wealth that is being taken from everyone by the 1%

The lack of leisure time, plus the ubiquity of portable players/phones, means that lower quality music goes everywhere. Less and less people can listen for its own sake, in a static home environment. If people don't have the time, or can't experience the superior quality of hi-rez files/discs, - and most of the files that other consumers are buying are .mp3, - then they are not going to pay more for better: especially if they can't make direct comparisons.

It is what it is: and what hi-rez is is not worth it to most everyone. So the big labels who are already suffering from lack of physical discs, can't/don't/won't invest in a higher resolution files that very few will buy.

The big "disc-selling" artists are all making .mp3s at lower quality than redbook. Streaming services are streaming in .mp3 or worse.

Cookie is absolutely right: when she says that people who don't buy their files don't like the the music of their artists. I would rather buy redbook files/discs of the music that I like, than buy hi-quality recordings. I've been down that road before with Chesky, wasting money on expensive discs made by artists who are 3rd rate IMO.

With hi-rez downloads and discs under 10,000 albums: there's a whole world of people who are not going to get music that they like. Classical, Jazz, and a few prog-rock discs from the 60s-70s + some current unoriginal bands who copy 70s bands: (yes there are a few original new artists, Goldfrapp, Groove Armada, PG, etc, [just a smattering]), will not make hi-rez downloads "popular," successful. (The kind of jazz & classical offered by Chesky, Blue Coast), are not popular compared to "the Voice" style pop crooners, Arabic Dance, pop-rock, roots rock, etc.

Cheers,

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: There is no demand for hi-rez // Not yet, posted on May 19, 2015 at 19:35:09

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

Everything you say is correct, but you left out one important fact. Hi-rez and DSD in particular are the closest thing to the master tape you are ever going to get. "Master tape quality" is a much overused term, but it applies to DSD, and that changes everything. I just got The Stones, Let it Bleed. It sounds amazingly good.

You know, there are people on this forum who spend big money on RTR tape machines, and if they have a collection of thirty tapes they think they are doing very well. I would much rather pay $30 for a DSD file as opposed to $350 for a 15 ips tape.

I think the numbers are even worse than you suggest. On Acoustic Sounds I count 500 DSD files, and 1800 PCM 96/24 files. I think there are 30 DSD files I want, and I'm sure I could find 70 pcm files. The record collector in me says that 100 albums is a legitimate collection.

Hopefully the selection of downloads will continue to grow. PONO music just came online. I think it's just the beginning of this format. It will have to build up more momentum to become relevant, but it may.

---------------------------------------------------------

Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

From my experience, I can't argue with anything you said, posted on May 20, 2015 at 10:21:24

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

I really enjoy about 30 of my 50 SACDs, and I always play them when I want to hear those artists: as opposed to listening to them on the computer or the redbook discs: where I also have them. I only have one or two SACDs where the SACD version is muddier, & sounds worse than the redbook.

I really don't like the way the term "master" and "mastering" is used. Traditionally, the term "mastering" comes from taking the "final mix" or "master" tapes to the production facility, and applying EQ (and sadly compression) during the process of cutting a lacquer for vinyl duplication. From there, a few metal discs are used as masters base duplication points, depending on the run of pressings.

My point is that we rarely know how the original, final mixes sound. Even the artists, and producers, forget. By the time that a recording got played on the radio, (in the past), it was likely the 4th or 5th generation of what happened on mix down day, and way over a year after that day. I remember getting a "test" cassette of the master of our recording as a "double check" from KDisk. It was so horrible, I started booking a plane ticket to NYC to come and oversee the process. Luckily, though, our producer/engineer called me from KDisk later that night, he took care of it.

Some lucky people do get to buy a safety copy of the final mixes; every now and then. Now, we have "clean-up" people, who are middle-men who sit at a computer, re-interpret the music, and build the digital file, either in hi-rez or not: and add their own "take" on the final mixes. IMO, these can vary widely from the original mix. The Rolling Stones ABKCO SACDs don't sound like the original vinyl, and they sound different again from the redbook CDs.

The SHM-SACD of Steely Dan Aja has a way different tonal character than the vinyl, and a way different tonal character to the Universal Gaucho SACD.

It was revelatory to me, whenever, my guitars sounded much different in the rough mixes than when I played them in the enclosed room, different again during the final mixes, different again on the CD, & different again on the AIFF files... (yet played back on the same playback system). Which one is right?

I sure hope that you're right, and I agree that the Pono thing is pretty cool. I am happy to make an investment in DSD/Hi-Rez file playback above what I have now, IF there will be NEW original material & a reasonable selection: instead of just doing another version of Steely Dan, Patricia Barber, etc, stuff that's already been released in other formats.

I guess that I shouldn't be arguing too vociferously as this spiraling cycle of lack of hi-rez feeds upon itself towards doom. As listening habits & wealth of people change/decline: the demand for hi-rez material goes down. People need their money for other stuff. This also hurts album sales for ALL discs and even .mp3 downloads. So people just want to spend &.99 on one song. So the "labels" don't take chances on original material, and promote artists who sound the same as everyone else, and don't cost them anything in expenses. This is all geared to hoping/investing for 1 hit, that comes from American Idol, or the Voice.

This kills SACDs even more, too much investment in art, packaging, discs, etc. and the hi-rez file needs to be created anyway. I do have a problem with companies who buy the rights to duplicate the already built hi-rez files that were used to manufacture SACDs, then jack up the price to purchase a copy of that same file, yet don't offer the other components of the SACD package. At what point will this "kill" the market. Right now, I am betting that few people interested in Hi-Rez file downloads also HAVE EXPERIENCE with SACDs. So, that file better sound as good as the SACD, and it better be cheaper...

The thing that might be a saviour to this death spiral, are things like the PS Audio Directstream DAC, and APL's DSD DAC. DACs that automagically jack up all material to DSD on the fly.

Cheers,

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

Streaming, (of course), has nothing to do with the OP , posted on May 21, 2015 at 14:41:42
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	The subject was about the price of downloading files that one owns & manipulates as one sees fit. Not, playing a live stream from the internet. Huge difference. "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: From my experience, I can't argue with anything you said, posted on May 21, 2015 at 16:40:13

Mr_Steady
Audiophile

Posts: 2042
Location: North Florida
Joined: August 19, 2014

I wonder if there are more audiophiles now than in the '70s? Certainly you can't get around the baby-boom numbers, but there is a significant number these days. Going to shows and reading mags seems to indicate we support a rather diverse and expensive market.

All this to say; what if DSD became what 7.5 ips tape was to the '70s audiophile? It wasn't that common to the general market, but it was well supported. Even Columbia House sold them mail order.

If converting RB to DSD does turn out to sound better, and the word gets out? Look out. In a relative way of course. :) It's amazing how many people don't even listen to CDs anymore. However, the download nature of hi-rez plays exactly into that.

As an artist I'm sure you have had a much better understanding of the recording process. For an end user like me, it better sound something like the record, unless the record really sucked. It gets weirder. Does Jimmy Page have the right at this point to do whatever he wants to Zeppelin III, and still call it Zeppelin III? Let it Bleed is so old it's almost a historical document. That must have been a well preserved tape they used for the hi-rez version.

There's a greedy record company for ya. If they sell the hi-rez remastered version of the Zep albums, then why not include a hi-rez flat-transfer from the safety copy? That's what makes me want to slap those bastards. BTW, safety copy is the best term. It's what I meant when I said master copy.

As for the rest, don't get me started on the sad state of the world.

The record companies have been on the lookout for the megahit since Frampton comes alive. Oh, the next jagged little pill. It's out there somewhere. It's interesting to me that small labels have made a come-back.

I so wanted to throw a bunch of crazy talk to Cookie Morenco. You know like how do indie labels get there CDs or music to market, and why doesn't she carry more of them. I suppose Subpop would be the biggest of these. If I was her I would also contact Sun Records. :)

Later,

------------------------------------------------------------
Big speakers and little amps blew my mind!

Almost all of my Downloads are Music I didn't have before, and NO Audio Problems,, posted on May 22, 2015 at 07:40:42
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10583 Joined: April 12, 2002	quite the opposite! I'm Loving it!

RE: Almost all of my Downloads are Music I didn't have before, and NO Audio Problems,, posted on May 23, 2015 at 08:22:31
ydavid Audiophile Posts: 194 Joined: December 14, 2005	Glad to hear it. Perhaps I had bad luck. Enjoy.

Hey Sordidman.., posted on May 24, 2015 at 08:31:48
marc-homeslice Audiophile Posts: 2888 Location: Bucks Co. Pennsylvania Joined: March 17, 2003	Hey.. hope your enjoying your weekend. I've got a Blue Circle BC 26 on the way. You seem to know a lot about it. If able.. please shoot me an email at: marchomeslice@gmail.com to discuss? Thanks, Marc

RE: These were the titles, posted on May 24, 2015 at 14:54:12

ydavid
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Joined: December 14, 2005

Eliane Elias: "I thought about You" Concord 2013. Marc Johnson Elaine Eliane Elias, "Swept Away." ECM 2012. Both had distortion on certain tracks. And the response from HD Tracks was: "This is part of the original master. There isn't anything that can be done about that. Each record label has their own recording/mastering process when it comes to high res. Sometimes the high res mastering and its clarity may present qualities that originally were unnoticeable when first released or in previous formats. We only hope that our label partners have taken note of that." I would have liked to have known this before spending $20 on the "hi res" album.

RE: These were the titles, posted on May 25, 2015 at 08:22:40
Nick77 Audiophile Posts: 10 Location: Austin Tx Joined: February 13, 2012	I continue to hope all the new competition will drive downloads down in price, hasnt happened yet. :(

RE: Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?, posted on June 9, 2015 at 18:06:51
coli	d

Hi-Rez Highway

Why is HiRes Download more expensive than physical disc ?

222.166.2.28