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DSD via HDMI

68.6.90.104
Posted on November 12, 2014 at 09:44:57
dbphd
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Montecito, CA
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I've been impressed with DSD from my Sony XA5400ES to my Parasound JC-2 BP and would like to capture that for surround, but the Sony does surround only via HDMI. Are there any processors that accept DSD via HDMI?

My Oppo 105 uses the JC-2 bypass for stereo with its surround output going directly to amps for 4.2, but it's output is LPCM to enable it to do speaker management.

db

 

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Marantz AV8801 is one such pre/pro, but I can't really recommend it for that, posted on November 12, 2014 at 15:58:31
Dave_K
 I have a Marantz AV8801 pre/pro and Oppo BDP-103 in my living room home theater system. The AV8801 will accept DSD and the Oppo can be configured to send it. When using bass management or Audyssey in the 8801, it will convert the incoming DSD to LPCM first. When listening in Pure Direct mode, I believe the bitstream stays DSD all the way to the DAC.

There is a sonic degradation associated with using bass management or Audyssey which seems greater for multichannel SACD sources than DVD-A. I've noticed this with every multichannel SACD player I've owned, so it's not unique to the AV8801.

But even in Pure Direct mode, I'm not impressed with SACD over HDMI and DVD-A over HDMI is only a little better. I've compared DSD decoded in the Oppo 103 and fed to the AV8801 via analog vs. DSD decoded in the AV8801, and in Pure Direct mode they are sonically on the same level. I used to have an APL-modded Philips SACD 1000 in my downstairs system, and when I tried connecting it to the AV8801 via analog Pure Direct, it was vastly better albeit 2ch only. I also have a Linn Majik DS player connected to the AV8801 via analog, and it is also vastly better even just playing CD rips. I think the Marantz has a good sounding direct analog path but the direct DSD path is disappointing.

I also recently got a second Linn DS to use in my downstairs system, this time an Akurate DSM which has a preamp section and digital inputs including HDMI. With the Oppo configured for PCM output and connected to the Linn via HDMI, 2ch SACD playback is better than with the Marantz, but it's still inferior to streaming hi-res PCM. I haven't yet compared DVD-A playback via the Oppo over HDMI to streaming hi-res PCM, but so far I'm not sold on HDMI as an interface for carrying hi-res audio.

Assuming the volume control on the Oppo 105 is reasonably transparent, then you are probably better off staying with what you got for multichannel SACD playback vs. trying SACD via HDMI. If you need bass management and/or distance/delay adjustment for non-ITU speaker placement, those functions are performed in the PCM domain regardless of which component is doing it, so you may as well let that happen in the 105.

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 14, 2014 at 04:49:29
Dave Billinge
Audiophile

Posts: 1008
Location: Hampshire
Joined: June 7, 2005
 The big Denon AVP A1HD does this and I guess newer Denons as well. I use the HDMI output from my Oppo 105D for surround SACD with complete satisfaction.

Dave

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 14, 2014 at 05:12:57
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing Dave & Dave.

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 14, 2014 at 10:21:38
dbphd
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Montecito, CA
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I sold my Cary Cinema 11a several years ago after I installed the Parasound JC-2, now JC-2 BP. I had a vague recollection that it might have processed DSD via HDMI. An email from Dan Wemmer of Cary confirmed that it does, and emails from Dan and Richard Schram of Parasound suggested a setup. So I've arranged to buy another 11a. The Oppo 105 and Sony XA5400ES will connect to the 11a via HDMI for surround sound. Front LR from the 11a will be passed through the JC-2 BP, surround from the 11a will go directly to the amps, and SW to the bass manager. Analog stereo from the Oppo and Sony will also go to the JC-2 BP, as it does from the Ayre C-5xeMP and JC-3 phono stage. The JC-2 BP by-pass is very clean, with even the volume control by-passed.

I hope HDMI is not as buggy in the 11a I'm buying as it was in the 11a I sold, with loud clunks whenever a disc was started or stopped, presumably an HDMI handshake issue not well handled.

db

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 14, 2014 at 11:18:54
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Sounds like a cool project db.

 

Well, that's kind of sad Dave..., posted on November 17, 2014 at 09:43:16
Jim Pearce
Audiophile

Posts: 23679
Joined: January 4, 2002
 I came out from under my rock after 8 years, and a Marantz 8801/Oppo 105D combo looked like an obvious replacement for my Anthem AVM20/Esoteric DV-50 (using quasi-ITU: five Paradigm Studio 100 v.3s and 15 v.2 sub, analog bass management using an Outlaw ICBM) for multichannel SACD - and everything else disc-wise. But maybe not...

 

Some additional comments on the Marantz 8801, posted on November 20, 2014 at 15:44:32
Dave_K
 Used as an analog preamp in Pure Direct mode, I am satisfied with the sound. It's slightly on the warm side of neutral, full sounding, with solid bass. The presentation is smooth and a little laid back. It has zero background noise, hum, or buzz in my system. It's not as transparent as a good high end stereo preamp, but it's better than I expected for a $3600 box with every feature under the sun. Used in this mode with a good source in front of it, it's not holding the rest of my system back, or at least not much.

I am also satisfied with the sound quality for Blu-Ray playback, which was important because my wife watches a lot of movies.

However, I am disappointed in the performance when playing SACDs via HDMI from the Oppo. Same for DVD-As, but to a lesser extent. The soundstage lacks depth, dynamic contrasts are a little weak, the top end sounds a bit dull, it lacks some sparkle, air, richness, presence. It basically sounds like a low end universal player, on the same level as the Oppo BDP-103 via analog. This is true with the bass management and Audyssey processing engaged or in direct mode with the processing bypassed. I'm similarly disappointed in the sound quality when using it to render network audio streams, which is important to me and is why I added the Linn DS.

I don't know why the digital section seems satisfactory for Blu-Ray playback but not for other hi-res audio sources. It may just be that I don't have a better reference for Blu-Ray playback.

I do have some positive things to say about the unit. It has been pretty much bug free, which is uncommon for full-featured pre/pros. Aside from occasional slow response times when trying to change internet radio stations, I really haven't had any operational issues with it. The menus are sensible and setup was straightforward. Firmware updates over the network have gone fine, but take a while when everyone is trying to update at the same time as you are. In addition to the front panel and the IR remote, you can control it via a GUI accessible via a web browser or the Marantz remote app. I can't say I've tried every feature it offers, but everything I have tried has worked as expected.

I also appreciate having the Bypass L/R setting for Audyssey which is a somewhat unique feature. I am fortunate that my front L&R speakers already come close to the ideal response curve when measured from the listening position in my living room, so they don't really need any equalization. Audyssey makes their response audibly and measurably worse by creating a dip in the upper midrange and adding peak in the lower treble. I've tried several different sets of sampling points when running the Audyssey calibration with similar results so I think the issue is with the microphone calibration. One of these days I'm going to try an Audyssey Pro calibration, but until then I appreciate the ability to exclude the front L&R from Audyssey calibration. I really do require the Audyssey calibration for other speakers because I don't have timre matched surround & rear speakers and they have varying degrees of boundary reinforcement.

 

RE: Some additional comments on the Marantz 8801, posted on November 20, 2014 at 18:58:58
dbphd
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Montecito, CA
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I hope disappointing SACD over HDMI is not endemic. DSD surround via HDMI from my Sony XA5400ES is my sole reason for buying another Cary Cinema 11a. If it's disappointing I suppose I can sell another Cary Cinema 11a. By early next week I should know. Interesting that Blu-ray is good via HDMI, because that's what I plan for my Oppo 105.

db

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 20, 2014 at 23:06:53
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 Why use a pre-pro when a Sony AVR is a far better way IMO. for surround sound via HDMI

 

Marantz house sound?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 07:30:34
Jim Pearce
Audiophile

Posts: 23679
Joined: January 4, 2002
 Your characterization of the 8801's sound reminds of my experience with the SA-14, which I sold when I bought the Esoteric. One man's warm is another man's muddy.

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 21, 2014 at 10:46:01
dbphd
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Montecito, CA
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I tried replacing my Proceed PAV/PDSD and Amp-2, 3 with a penultimate Sony AVR a decade or so ago. My aim was simplification. All the sense of air disappeared, and the sound seemed flat. Fortunately, I hadn't sold the Proceed units. I sold the Sony AVR.

Given that digital processors seem to become obsolete so readily, I'm using a high-quality analog preamp that can pass through stereo from whatever processor I'm using, currently an Oppo 105, soon to be a Cary Cinema 11a. The processor sends surround to the amps.

db

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 21, 2014 at 11:48:41
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 Sony AVR,s have vastly improved starting from 6 years ago with the STR-DA5400ES I use the pre-out into my current stereo amplifier to power front speakers, the AVR powers centre & rear speakers,nothing I know of beats Sony processing for mch sound , blue-ray & for sheer value.. Quite frankly I find Sony BD superior to over priced Oppo for both video & sound. I also use the Sony XA5400ES for mch SACD & CD, Sony BDP-1000ES for Blu-Ray.

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 21, 2014 at 12:23:45
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I have been thinking about picking up a Sony BDP-1000ES or 2000ES player.

 

RE: Marantz house sound?, posted on November 21, 2014 at 14:44:39
Dave_K
 Yes, when used as an analog preamp there is some of that Marantz house sound. I remember similar attributes from my Philips SACD 1000 before I had it modified, which was basically the same machine as the Marantz SA-12.

I don't think many people would complain about the tonal balance - it's not really colored. However, some might say it's too smooth and doesn't have enough speed and attack. And it may be counter-balanced by the sound of the Majik DS. Also, the house sound isn't there so much when fed with a digital input.

You have a really good hi-res audio player in the Esoteric. I would keep nursing it along.

 

I look forward to hearing about the results (nt), posted on November 21, 2014 at 14:46:35
Dave_K
 nt

 

RE: Marantz house sound?, posted on November 22, 2014 at 17:31:01
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I,too, like the Esoteric for SACD playback.

 

RE: DSD via HDMI, posted on November 23, 2014 at 20:58:32
mtrot
Audiophile

Posts: 351
Location: east texas
Joined: September 7, 2003
 As far as I know, most of Onkyo A/V receivers and processors accept DSD via HDMI, for both the stereo and multi-channel content. Currently listening to the Living Stereo Stokowski Rhapsodies with my Oppo BDP-83 and Onkyo TX-NR809 via HDMI, sounds great!

 

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