So what will be "beyond DSD" in Hi-Rez digital??

I read there is 4X DSD, posted on September 29, 2014 at 10:30:30
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	Maybe when Computers get away from Silicon, maybe Cell-Based with infinite resolution. Then maybe I'll sound good on my recordings!

There's still a small number of music titles available in, posted on September 29, 2014 at 14:18:29
paulmah@hotmail.com Reviewer Posts: 319 Location: NYC Joined: August 8, 2007	DSD and you're thinking about could be better?

RE: There's still a small number of music titles available in, posted on September 29, 2014 at 15:11:53
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	There are more every Month. I wish more were actual DSD Recordings, but simply Converting PCM Files to DSD or 2x DSD , works geat IME.

How could converting from one format to another..., posted on September 30, 2014 at 06:25:39
rlw Audiophile Posts: 3347 Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL Joined: August 29, 2006	Result in improved sound quality? That doesn't make any sense at all... -RW-

Well, that's what the Sony Z1,Korg, among, posted on September 30, 2014 at 06:49:51
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	others do ( PS Audio ), and I know it works! To me, it's like the Hubble Telescope, before and after upgrades- Same Universe, more Resolution. DSD provides much finer resolution. Try it!

RE: How could converting from one format to another..., posted on September 30, 2014 at 08:23:24

Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008

Tricky question. Converting PCM to DSD cannot "add resolution" in the sense of adding more information accurately to what was already there. Actually, the conversion process might involve adding noise, approximations or other distortions and nothing "good". But, depending on the system, conversion to analog might be "cleaner" in DSD on playback than PCM because it does not involve similar filter artifacts like preringing, filter ripple or phase issues. So, it comes down to which sounds best to a given listener in a given system. YMMV.

Yes, if Sony makes their quad DSD available that is the end, posted on September 30, 2014 at 08:47:28
Norm Reviewer Posts: 31024 Joined: September 6, 2000	There will be no master tapes available save in quad DSD. Presently I am enjoying double DSD of everything I have on my raid. This is thank to JRiver MC19. I have many SACD converted to DSD that are just outstanding. When I listen to cds in 44/16 versus double DSD, I can hear that moving the filters well out away from what we hear, the detail is just striking.

RE: How could converting from one format to another..., posted on September 30, 2014 at 08:47:55
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	Not more information, but better resoulution of what's already there. One reviewer thinks 2x DSD is a scam, can't make any diff, but it does! I still think the Hubble comparison is valid, now that I've heard 5.6 playback. It seems that lots of manufacturers are on the bandwagon. I think it's a good thing.

RE: Yes, if Sony makes their quad DSD available that is the end, posted on September 30, 2014 at 08:49:30
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	How did you get DSD Files from Sacd's? Thanks for your input!

RE: There's still a small number of music titles available in, posted on September 30, 2014 at 13:20:31
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Yeh, like 300 non classical. Oh and by the way classical accounts for 1% of music sales. I'm sick of the DSD hype. Not the format. But viability as a commercial format. God forbid you don't have a "DSD Ready" DAC. Congrats Audio press. Well done. (not directed at you, btw..but Stereophile, TAS, and PFO)

With the death of the AOR format: so too will the DSD disc, posted on September 30, 2014 at 16:07:05

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

go even further down the tubes.

So, what artist is going to bother to invest in decent DSD equipment to record their next one hit wonder file that can't even be sold on iTunes?

How can anyone possibly make enough money by selling one DSD music track uploaded to that wretched "HDTracks" website?: even if it sounds exactly like Justin Timberlake copying Michael Jackson.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: Yes, if Sony makes their quad DSD available that is the end, posted on September 30, 2014 at 16:49:46
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	Glorified upsampling.

RE: Yes, if Sony makes their quad DSD available that is the end, posted on September 30, 2014 at 17:39:13
ahendler Audiophile Posts: 5151 Location: San Antonio, Texas Joined: January 24, 2003	Listen to 16/44 with no filters with NOS dacks like Audio Note or Teradak. You will be surprised how good it can sound Alan

RE: There's still a small number of music titles available in, posted on September 30, 2014 at 20:46:13

paulmah@hotmail.com
Reviewer

Posts: 319
Location: NYC
Joined: August 8, 2007

Hi Sprezza - I didn't think it was directed at me since I made the criticism. In fact, I mentioned this as the biggest problem currently with DSD in my just completed Teac-UD501 review (currently draft at Teac for fact checking): "What I presently see as the major drawback with DSD is not the quality of sound, but the small amount of music available. For a number of reasons, the PCM catalog is tremendously large in just about every musical genre..." Cheers, Paul

Absolute bollocks!, posted on October 1, 2014 at 07:04:56
rlw Audiophile Posts: 3347 Location: Near West Palm Bch, FL Joined: August 29, 2006	>>DSD provides much finer resolution.<< But you're converting a PCM file to DSD, you simply cannot "add" resolution, you are limited to the resolution of the source (PCM) file. Geez guys, this isn't that difficult.... -RW-

1st-Convert to DSD, 2nd-Convert w/DSD Dac, posted on October 1, 2014 at 07:18:37
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	Why do Hubble Pix look better after upgrades? More resolution. Same Universe. more resolution. There's more there in audio files than PCM can resolve. Have you tried/heard DSD Plaback of PCM Files? I'm having lots of fun with my Korg DS Dac 100. Read any Z1 Reviews?

What a Gloomy-Gus! I thought that since society is crumbling,, posted on October 1, 2014 at 08:47:13

oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002

there was no point being interested in any of this stuff!
I plan to be fiddling ( around ) while it happens.
HD Tracks isn't the Only Source of downloads, DSD and others. Actually, HD Tracks has No DSD that I've seen.
And with DSD Upsampling, they don't even Have to be DSD Recordings, tho that would be Ideal.
I don't listen to anyone on ITunes, that's for sure!
Basically, DSD sounds good, I'm having a good time, that's all that really matters to me.
Having Sound this good in my home is great!

I think that Hubble analogy is far fetched, posted on October 1, 2014 at 09:44:52

Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
Since: February 6, 2012

"There's more there in audio files than PCM can resolve.
Have you tried/heard DSD Plaback of PCM Files?"

In point of fact, I'm sure almost everybody here HAS listened to DSD playback of PCM files, because most hi-rez masters that eventually appear on SACD are PCM (or at least PCM edited)! - for instance, whenever you buy and listen to the DSD portion of almost any Chandos or BIS SACD, the sound is sourced from PCM! All SACD/DSD does in those cases is to add some ultrasonic noise!

This state of affairs has led me to seek out the hi-rez PCM downloads of those same releases, rather than purchasing the SACD's. And IMHO the downloads do indeed sound better than the SACD's. (Hard to tell for sure though, because it's a slightly different playback chain.)

I mean, sure, I'll take DSD over CD-rez PCM. However, the choice is considerably less clear with higher-rez PCM vs. DSD. As I said years ago, this whole "battle" between DSD and PCM is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - it's just silly.

BTW, glad you're having fun with your Korg DAC. ;-)

All I can do is apologize, posted on October 1, 2014 at 10:24:57

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

Sorry about that......

I love my SACDs, - and want more. None of my favorite artists appear to me to want to have anything to do with hi-rez digital file downloads.

And, - HDTracks are quite simply liars. (I don't see any other way to describe them).

I know that I should be more positive, but contrary evidence doesn't seem to be present.

I need more experience with DSD upsampling: with that, - I'll shut up now, - and endeavor to get "on it" and seek out those experiences.

Cheers,

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

Nothing beats quantization noise, posted on October 1, 2014 at 12:59:57
Roseval Audiophile Posts: 1845 Joined: March 31, 2008	The Well Tempered Computer

RE: All I can do is apologize, posted on October 1, 2014 at 13:45:26

Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012

Let's explore that..who are your favorite artists?

I have encountered situations with fellow audiophiles who have wanted to check out the hirez scene but are convinced none of the music they listen to is available. In many cases, but not all, much of it was hiding in plain site.

I just spoke to an Eagles fanatic, a fan among fans, and he had no idea the catalog was archived and remastered to 24/192 by Bernie Grundman from the true blue master tapes.

RE: All I can do is apologize, posted on October 1, 2014 at 14:43:09

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

I know that there was a severely limited run of Groove Armada.
The Brian Eno catalog was remastered to DSD, but the SACDs never got pressed.
DeadCamDance is definitely there, (and I have them all).
Sigur Ros & Joy Division, New Order are unlikely to get done...

Since Peter Gabriel got done, - what are the chance of the Afro Celts?
I have all the Genesis that I want.....
I have the Talking Heads DVD-As.
A lot of the world music acts I like are more concerned about recording SQ, and master redbook better, and/or with less or without compression.
(example, Lila Downs).

I do watch SA-CD.net.

I think that it's less of an issue of me not being aware of DSD/DVD-A re-dos, - than it is of the artists pursuing DSD or hirez file availability.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: All I can do is apologize, posted on October 1, 2014 at 17:10:44

Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012

Ok, there are two parallel discussions here.

First, let me get DSD out of the way. It is in fact, without question, with regards to the major labels DEAD. Period. End of discussion.

There are have half a dozen major catalogs done in complete form for SACD..The Rolling Stones, Elton John, The Moody Blues, Bob Dylan, The RCA Living Stereo albums, the Mercury Living Presence albums, and that is it, with the possibility of me missing one or two.

All other SACDs have been done by boutique labels like Analogue Productions..The Doors, Norah Jones...Audio Fidelity...CCR,Yes, and Mobile Fidelity... all at $30 or $35 pop, and some only purchasable as expensive box sets.

Ironically, droves of Sony artists, and Sony is the one came out with their bullshit "DSD 2.0" campaign, have been bypassed, or one or two titles out of the entire catalog have been produced for SACD..like Santana's Abraxas..and no other releases. Why?

No reissue projects are even considering DSD today. All the major projects of the past 3 years..the Dylan bootleg series (another Sony artist!) Pink Floyd, The Beatles, CCR, the forthcoming Springsteen, Led Zep, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis (Sony, again!) have been mastered in 96 or 192 PCM.

Second topic..higher than CD resolution PCM downloads. The offerings are impressive.

Here is a link to two Joy Division albums. I can tell you first hand they are revelatory:

http://www.hdtracks.com/music/artist/view/id/5446/

It's a good thing we hate each other..., posted on October 1, 2014 at 22:56:35

Jaundiced Ear

otherwise we might find we have a lot in common!

For example, "Here Come the Warm Jets" and "Taking Tiger Mountain (by Strategy) are some of my favorite albums.

Did you ever see the original, LP cover of "Fripp and Eno (No Pussyfooting)" and compare the differences between the seemingly identical reflections?

Speaking of Fripp, at a wild guess you've got some King Crimson in your collection. Have you ever played back "Fracture" or "Larks' Tongues in Aspic" at volume on a modern system? Whoa.

I'll bet you've got some Yes on your shelves too. Starship Trooper? The Clap? Or maybe some ELP? Enough of "Lucky Man", I wanna hear "Take a Pebble" and "Tank"!

Oh well, back to fighting, because it's more important to carry a grudge than it is to admit differences and try to rise above them.

look the Hubbell is a different matter., posted on October 3, 2014 at 19:57:48

Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001

the image that the out of focus lens provided was analogue, it had all the information it was just not in focus. so adding additional optics and correct for the parallax in the analogue domain and then adding addition image processing to remove artifacts of the optical correction allowed the improved image quality. It was not just reprocessing the same digital files from the same optics. Do not bring it up as an example because it is not relevant to the discussion

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

http://www.spacetelescope.org/about/history/aberration_probl

RE: Nothing beats quantization noise, posted on October 3, 2014 at 23:09:50
Ric Schultz Manufacturer Posts: 844 Joined: August 7, 2000	I remember reading that 5.6 meg DSD has something like 40db (100 times) less noise at 50K compared to 2.8 meg DSD sampling. Everyone seems to like double speed DSD better than single speed and maybe upsampling PCM to double speed DSD might be something very worthwhile (for sound, of course).

PCM and DSD sound better in 5.6, IME! nt, posted on October 5, 2014 at 07:34:21
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

Ok, OK, no more Hubble! Try DSD 5.6, posted on October 5, 2014 at 07:35:48
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	you'l like it!

Nothing beats quantization noise-So what? You can't hear it, and, posted on October 5, 2014 at 07:49:01
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	It sounds great. Graphs don't really make much sound.

RE: All I can do is apologize, posted on October 5, 2014 at 07:58:46

Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008

Not quite the end of the discussion. If you are only focused on major labels, yes, SACD might be dead. But, the major labels in some genres are essentially dead or dying as CD sales themselves continue to nosedive. If you are also primarily focused on rock/pop, yes, SACD was never much of a factor there, though some re-releases sold quite well, and some OOP rock staples on SACD command large price premiums used.

But, if like me, you are primarily interested in newly recorded classical material in Mch, the SACD niche, tiny though it might be compared to commercial rock/pop, remains alive, active and highly worthwhile. Yes, we are talking about primarily smaller European labels like BIS, Harmonia Mundi, Channel Classics, Pentatone,etc. which remain committed to SACD and hi rez Mch sound.

I have 2,000+ SACDs, 90% classical in Mch and recorded in the last 10 years. Yes, that is a drop in the bucket compared to CD, but it provides plenty of listening to a wide repertoire with fine artists, orchestras and performances. And, there are plenty more than that worth acquiring, plus a continuing flow of new releases. Sa-cd.net has over 10,000 SACDs listed, though many are OOP or stereo reissues which are not of interest to me.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, rumors of the death of SACD are greatly exaggerated. It might not offer you what you want, so it is dead to you, but not to me.

CD and higher than cd resolution still sound better in DSD 5.6., posted on October 5, 2014 at 08:34:23
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	So, for me, it's far from dead. And I make my own DSD 2.8 recordings which I enjoy in DSD 5.6. I just don't share your concerns!

+1 and Well Said! nt, posted on October 5, 2014 at 08:35:54
oldmkvi Audiophile Posts: 10581 Joined: April 12, 2002	/

RE: CD and higher than cd resolution still sound better in DSD 5.6., posted on October 5, 2014 at 08:36:48
Sprezza Tura Audiophile Posts: 4585 Location: New York City Joined: August 24, 2012	I make my own DSD recordings too. But just stop it..DSD is DEAD as a viable COMMERCIAL FORMAT. Let's end the fantasy, please. It will continue to survive as an extreme fringe format, mostly for classical music.

what Lila Downs are you talking about?, posted on October 9, 2014 at 22:00:49

Ruben
Audiophile

Posts: 470
Location: San Francisco, California
Joined: April 15, 2001

The music is great but I did not see any particularly well recorded cd.
Ruben

San Francisco, California

RE: So what will be "beyond DSD" in Hi-Rez digital??, posted on October 10, 2014 at 10:13:43
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15518 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	I am quite satisfied w/ my SACD.

Una Sangre/One Blood: sounds A-Mazing IME -t, posted on October 31, 2014 at 15:48:01
Sordidman Audiophile Posts: 13665 Location: San Francisco Joined: May 14, 2001	. "Asylums with doors open wide, Where people had paid to see inside, For entertainment they watch his body twist Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

It never got started, posted on October 31, 2014 at 15:54:17

Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001

I definitely respect your viewpoints.....

And, - I can look beyond my own viewpoint and see that SACD is a different medium for classical music.

But you said it yourself, - "it's a drop in the bucket."

1. The most popular, high sales SACDs have always been rock. The ABKCO Rolling Stones SACDs, (which they were afraid to call SACDs), were the biggest thing to happen to the format: and Bob Dylan's catalog.

2. 2,000 SACDs, 10,000 SACDs, 100,000 SACDs is absolutely horrible, - it's just completely horrible, - it is NOT a legitimate format. A better comparison is "drop in the ocean" Even for classical music, - 100,000 is just nothing.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

RE: It never got started, posted on November 3, 2014 at 07:29:40

Fitzcaraldo215
Audiophile

Posts: 1120
Location: Philadelphia
Joined: September 7, 2008

If you are a classical music aficionado, as I am, you don't care much about popularity contests. I don't see the relevance, as long as producers are content to continue with new releases, and they still do. My collection of hi rez classical in Mch on SACD and BD assembled over the last 7 years is now about equivalent in numbers to the number of LPs or CDs I had amassed over many decades. Are there a few holes in the available repertoire? Yes. But, from the standpoint of assembling a broad library of recordings for my listening pleasure, there is no problem. I am happier than ever with my available choices and with sonics that are far better than ever.

I have no delusions. I accept that classical is only a small niche and hi rez a niche within that and Mch a further niche within that. But, it is viable and the beat goes on, shifting increasingly to downloads or streaming. There is more than enough recorded material to listen to and enjoy in this niche. Hey, they do not sell a lot of Rolls Royces or Ferraris either. Why should their owners care about how many Toyotas are sold?

Hi-Rez Highway

So what will be "beyond DSD" in Hi-Rez digital??

24.229.64.13