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Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference

108.220.54.45
Posted on April 19, 2014 at 16:57:17
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10582
Joined: April 12, 2002
 between RCA and Balanced outputs?
I noticed they are both 2 Volts, I thought Balanced most often Doubles the Voltage.
I found on my Sony 5400, also the same Voltage, that the Balanced was softer and thinner than RCA, and even after turning it up, it still didn't sound as good as RCA here.

 

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RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 19, 2014 at 19:12:06
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Kal is 'the man'.

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 19, 2014 at 19:16:22
dbphd
Audiophile

Posts: 1674
Location: Montecito, CA
Joined: September 6, 2006
 I prefer SE from my Sony XA5400ES into my Parasound JC-2. I suspect it may be the impedance of the Sony XLR output.

db

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 19, 2014 at 21:53:09
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I read the review too, very nice!

My only question has to do with transferring music files over to the Sony from a Mac or PC. I'm wondering if files can be transferred by selecting a top level folder with all sub-folders and music files below it being transferred, or is one required to grab only a few folders at a time. ??



 

Thanks! nt, posted on April 20, 2014 at 00:05:36
oldmkvi
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 /

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 20, 2014 at 07:35:19
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 The former. See the relevant support page.

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 20, 2014 at 07:38:21
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 I had a slight preference for the XLR output which, I thought, had an edge in bass tightness but I didn't think it significant.

 

Was there a difference in Playback Volume?, posted on April 20, 2014 at 08:30:16
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10582
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Did you have to turn up the Balanced , compared to RCA.
My Mac Preamp doubles the Voltage for Balanced, and the Amp is half as sensitive, so no diff in playback volume.
My 5400 ( and Z1 ) don't double the Voltage, but the Pre seems to be set for 2x the Voltage, and so sounds much softer.
I guess I don't get why.
Thanks!

 

RE: Was there a difference in Playback Volume?, posted on April 20, 2014 at 14:13:16
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 Don't know. Didn't attend to it.

 

OK, not important! nt, posted on April 20, 2014 at 14:26:01
oldmkvi
Audiophile

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Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

RE: OK, not important! nt, posted on April 20, 2014 at 16:55:44
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I think that it is very cool that both Modwright and Red Wine Audio are offering mods for this player.

 

Another incompetent piece of work from this reviewer., posted on April 20, 2014 at 18:09:44
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 It would be an understatement to say that a lot of potential users would be concerned whether the balanced output was properly implemented. Knowing the screwed up job that the designer, Inazumi had done previously on the SCD-1's balanced outputs, you would think that he had learnt better since the last decade to do a proper job this time around. That the reviewer didn't bothered to check shows how inept he is.

I have a loan unit of HAP-Z1ES on test in my system right now. But unfortunately I am unable to check this myself, because the owner has disabled the unbalanced outputs internally. I bet he would be pleased to know if indeed the single ended outputs do sound better, and would reinstate them the instance he collects it back from me.

 

RE: Another incompetent piece of work from this reviewer., posted on April 20, 2014 at 18:51:59
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10582
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I like the RCA Outs on my Stock Sony 5400 better than Bal, and not by just a little!
The Bal on the 5400 is also 2V, same as RCA, and of course same as the the Z1.
So I'd be willing to say I would use RCA on the Z1.
I used the same brand and model cables when I compared, except for the Connectors.
Why did your friend do that? Maybe he liked the Balanced better, or was he just assuming that?
Seems kind of extreme, to disable the outputs.

 

I'd like to read it, please direct me to it. , posted on April 21, 2014 at 07:35:55
Prisoners
Audiophile

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Location: Chicago
Joined: June 13, 2004
 Thanks in advance-Rich

 

May Stereophile. nt, posted on April 21, 2014 at 09:05:33
oldmkvi
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Posts: 10582
Joined: April 12, 2002
 /

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 21, 2014 at 11:29:00
Disbeliever
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 but he avoided reviewing the partnering Sony TA-1ES amplifier

 

Thanks for the review and the link, Kal - nt, posted on April 21, 2014 at 20:06:34
AbeCollins
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 .

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 21, 2014 at 20:22:23
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 that would be dependent upon wether or not the matching amp was available during his audition period?

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 22, 2014 at 00:16:03
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
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 Both released simultaenously, however I purchased the amp on a 30 day trial from Sony direct and promptly returned it for a refund. Not suprised to discover that it was not designed by Sony,s Chief Designer Mr Kanai,

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 22, 2014 at 04:50:21
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
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 Whom designed the amp?

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 22, 2014 at 05:19:50
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 Japanese design engineer was Sato-san who also designed the SCD-1 but not so good with stereo amplifiers.No separation of pre-power, sounds atrocious IMO despite two rave reviews, see my comments in Words & Music and on the Sony Site.Apparently there was also input from Eric Kingdon Sony,s European technical marketing manager.

 

RE: Kal, Thanks for your HAP Z1 Review! Did you heara difference, posted on April 22, 2014 at 05:56:12
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thank You!
it would seem that the ES segment of Sony has a dedicated team of individuals to R&D these products? There is quite a difference between designing cd/sacd player(s) vs pre/power amplifiers.

 

The reviews of both together were excellent!, posted on April 22, 2014 at 09:46:34
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10582
Joined: April 12, 2002
 You have a surround set up, why are you bothering with a stereo amp?

 

RE: The reviews of both together were excellent!, posted on April 22, 2014 at 11:16:08
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 It seems the TA-1ES works best with the HAP-Z1 In my surround setup I use a near 20 year old Class AB stereo amplifier fed from the pre-outs of my Sony DA5400ES AVR to drive front speakers, having no Xover speakers can not be bi-amped , I get a better bass performance this way especially as I do not like sub-woofers. Because of the excellent reviews I decided to try out the new Sony amp.

 

Differences between balanced and unbalanced., posted on April 23, 2014 at 13:41:27
Ric Schultz
Manufacturer

Posts: 844
Joined: August 7, 2000
 I tested the Sony with a test disc and indeed it gives one volt RMS per phase balanced and 2 volts RMS unbalanced. There is one volt per phase coming out of the I-V converters and then the summing op amp doubles it for unbalanced but the balanced buffers are used with no gain. The opamps used in the unbalanced summing amp are different from the ones on the balanced outs (OPA2132 versus NJM2114). The coupling caps used on the balanced outs and unbalanced outs are different as well (as well as no bypass caps on the output caps on the balanced outputs). It is no wonder the outputs would sound slightly different. A simpler and more pure sounding output stage could be done by just using the I-V converter opamp for each phase and then through a coupling cap and out. No summing or buffering or filtering. I have been doing this for years. Also changing the I-V converter opamp to a discrete one improves the sound even more. I will be doing this in my mods to be released in a couple of weeks. My standard output will be 2 Volts RMS per phase but I can make it any way anyone likes.

Yes, the unit does invert absolute polarity (measured via original Philips test disc). My mods will have the polarity correct for both the unbalanced and balanced outputs.

 

RE: Differences between balanced and unbalanced., posted on April 23, 2014 at 14:23:22
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15519
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing Ric.

 

So how does it sound in balanced to you?, posted on April 23, 2014 at 18:29:04
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 3815
Joined: August 1, 2002
 Regardless of whether or not the unit you have right now has the single ended outputs disabled, or a reviewer of which you seem to have an axe to grind with missed a step (perhaps a deadline issue?), does the unit sound good enough to warrant your purchasing it?

I recall 2 times in the past that uber high end reviewers praised 2 20 + k products with glaring technical problems with the components under review. It was as though the reviews were written without actually hearing the units. I heard one of the exact amps that was reviewed, and over 2 watts output a horrific noise came from both channels. No one called either reviewer out. So what gives?

 

RE: Another incompetent piece of work from this reviewer., posted on April 24, 2014 at 06:57:08
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >That the reviewer didn't bothered to check shows how inept he is.

Stereophile's review of the HAP-Z1ES did examine the behavior from both
the balanced and unbalanced output jacks. Yes, the output level is the
same from both outputs but the balanced output impedance is twice as high
as the unbalanced. This is exactly what you would expect, each phase of the
balanced signal being sourced from the same impedance as the unbalanced
signal.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

Both of you have something to answer for, posted on April 24, 2014 at 10:02:25
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 Yes, John, first of all, the inclusion of your measurement does not hide the fact that this reviewer has neglected investigating an important attribute of the product that potential buyers would be very concerned with - the subjective performance of its balanced vs its unbalanced outputs - and I remember many times in the past, whenever an expensive product fell short under your microscope, you have always felt the need to remind your devoted readers that measurement isn't meant to replace actual listening and from it, derive a subjective interpretation.

And secondly, Kal did also missed out one important fact - those balanced outputs were found to invert absolute polarity! So did Kal's sample sound as good as it did because of the positive waves were going south and negative waves were heading north - like what had happened with Art Dudley when he reviewed the sony original play station and found it to sound "very good" despite it also inverting absolute polarity?

And I specifically point out "Kal's sample" because from looking at the photo used in the review, which shows a section of the back panel where the balanced output are located, the printed wiring configuration information specified that the XLR outputs are wired pin2 hot and pin3 cold. So was this photo taken from "Kal's sample" or was it a photo provided by Sony taken from another sample? Did Sony's technical and design teams had a communication cockup that ended up with the printed technical information on the product being different from the actual product itself? Or did you made a mistake with your polarity measurement, so that's why Kal hadn't felt the need to point out any sonic aberrations associated with this issue in his subjective review? If your measurement is correct, then why didn't you point out the errors in the printed information as shown in the photo? Who between you and Kal in stereophile cocked up?

Yes, both of you do need to answer for each of your own shoddy work.

 

RE: Both of you have something to answer for, posted on April 24, 2014 at 10:22:28
Disbeliever
Audiophile

Posts: 1877
Joined: June 1, 2012
 This is a perfect example why you must never believe any review these days always listen for yourself. Fortunately with Sony you can purchase and return for a full refund within 30 days.

 

Please read the complete review...oh, you did :-), posted on April 24, 2014 at 11:24:43
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 >Kal did also missed out one important fact - those balanced outputs were
>found to invert absolute polarity!

This, too, was mentioned in the review, on p.75.

>looking at the photo used in the review, which shows a section of the back
>panel where the balanced output are located, the printed wiring
>configuration information specified that the XLR outputs are wired pin2
>hot and pin3 cold. So was this photo taken from "Kal's sample" or was it
>a photo provided by Sony taken from another sample?

We had two samples of the DHP-Z1ES, one for photography and one for
auditioning and measurement. However, the rear-panel photo was supplied
by Sony.

>did you made a mistake with your polarity measurement?

No.

>If your measurement is correct, then why didn't you point out the errors
>in the printed information as shown in the photo?

At the time I performed the measurements and wrote them up, I hadn't seen
the detail photo. So yes, it is now apparent that there is a discrepancy
between what the manufacturer claims and the measured reality. Won't be
the first time and won't be the last.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

Trying to cover your colleague's arse?, posted on April 24, 2014 at 17:41:50
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 So are you and Kal, the same and only one person?

He, was the one did the listening, but at no time, throughout his entire review did he point out the absolute polarity reversal issue.

So don't get mixed up, ok?



Also, the other thing is - both sets of outputs were found to invert absolute polarity, so perhaps it is presumptuous for you to say the unit you had for measurement has its XLR jacks wired with pin3 hot. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that the unit inverts absolute polarity in the digital domain.

At the time you performed the measurements and wrote them up, you hadn't check the photo in detail before it goes out to print. So yes, it is now apparent that there is a discrepancy. Won't be the first time and won't be the last.



 

RE: Trying to cover your colleague's arse?, posted on April 25, 2014 at 15:18:18
John Atkinson
Reviewer

Posts: 4045
Location: New York
Joined: November 24, 2003
 Why do you continue to be insulting? Obviously absolute polarity is very
important to you, but the reality is that other than with purist
recordings, where absolute polarity has been captured in a consistent
manner, it's a crap shoot. Don't you feel that there is room for sincere
differences of opinion here? Or do you feel your own opinion over-rides
all others?

I suspect that our sample of the HAP-Z1ES, which was from early production,
conformed to the Japanese convention of pin 3 hot.

And again, you are cherry-picking your data in order to criticize the
magazine. You must consider a Stereophile review in its entirety. No, Kalman
Rubinson didn't comment on any differences between the balanced and
unbalanced outputs. But the review as a whole _did_ so so. No, Kalman
Rubinson didn't comment on the Sony inverting absolute polarity. But the
review as a whole _did_ do so.

Please try to answer without resorting _again_ to insults.

John Atkinson
Technical Editor, Stereophile

 

RE: Trying to cover your colleague's arse?, posted on April 25, 2014 at 19:44:25
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 John, John, don't_get_your_feathers_all_flustered.

"....I suspect that our sample of the HAP-Z1ES, which was from early production,
conformed to the Japanese convention of pin 3 hit...."

You did mentioned the unbalanced outputs invert absolute polarity also, don't_you_remember?
That means it is more than just a wiring issue at the XLR outputs.

 

Several of these were pesent at AXPONA, posted on April 30, 2014 at 18:08:43
Prisoners
Audiophile

Posts: 4493
Location: Chicago
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 I also saw quite a few of the smaller, less expensive Sony hi-rez players with being used as headphone amps. That's a very good sign for the future of this product.

 

RE: Several of these were pesent at AXPONA, posted on May 1, 2014 at 08:52:15
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
I'm interested in the smaller $1000 'all in one' Sony player with 500GB storage that includes a modest integrated amp. This would be ideal for a small office setup if it sounds good.

Is this the one you saw at AXPONA being used as a headphone amp?

Sony HAP-S1






 

Yes. , posted on May 1, 2014 at 16:37:13
Prisoners
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 Both the HAP-Z1ES and the HAP-S1 made strong showings. I've heard both at length and the S1 would indeed make a perfect small room/headphone amp. I'm considering one of each.

 

RE: Yes. , posted on May 1, 2014 at 21:26:50
AbeCollins
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Hmm, I'm leaning toward the Sony HAP-S1 but it will have to drive a pair of speakers in my office to be truly ideal. My concern is that it may not be powerful enough.

I might take a chance on it possibly through a retailer who will allow me to 'upgrade' to the Sony HAP-Z1ES if the HAP-S1 doesn't work out. But then I will need an integrated amp to go with it..... or I could get more sensitive speakers.

Just rambling and thinking out loud. ;-)

Thanks.

 

Perhaps you should READ the article you want to slam?, posted on May 4, 2014 at 15:31:01
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 Hmmm ...

Who is at fault here? You for trying to criticize something you clearly didn't read, or the editor of a magazine for defending the article?

Sorry, this time you lose.

Pick another fight. Or perhaps go and listen to some music and enjoy yourself rather than squabble?
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

Hey you stupid, posted on May 5, 2014 at 06:26:37
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2303
Joined: February 2, 2001
 How can I point out the error John made with reference with the photo used in the review if I hadn't read the review?

 

And here........................................., posted on May 5, 2014 at 18:41:55
Kal Rubinson
Reviewer

Posts: 12436
Location: New York
Joined: June 5, 2002
 on www.stereophile.com

 

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