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Well, I'm done

216.190.112.141
Posted on December 2, 2016 at 11:02:55
gkirkos
Audiophile

Posts: 201
Location: Seattle
Joined: February 6, 2015
I have a houseguest who is a budding professional viola player. Yesterday she
played in the same room as my system, basically where my speakers are.

Great opportunity to compare to live sound, right?

It was certainly humbling. I have a pretty good system, tubes, Harbeth, blah blah blah, but MAN, there is certainly nothing like the sound of a real instrument in the room.

It's kind of nice as I can relax, enjoy my system, and stop chasing the absolute sound.

 

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Good post, posted on December 2, 2016 at 11:50:49
Quint
Dealer

Posts: 3657
Joined: June 21, 2003
 I've been to my fair share of concerts over the years, and I eventually gave up trying to chase the "live" sound. Rather, I try to get a halfway decent approximation of what the recording process was (insofar as I know that information, of course). Aiming at the midpoint of this hobby, rather than at the edges, has helped me a lot. Enjoy your rig. Sounds like a nice one!
This is a public service announcement . . . WITH GUITARS!!!

 

viola is actuall really hard to reproduce right. I agree hearing one live makes my jaw drop., posted on December 2, 2016 at 11:59:38
Smelly_Socks
 The strength of the tone is amazing live. I have never found it possible to really get it right. One could fudge a system to get just the Viola right, but everything else would be messed up.

 

Me too, posted on December 2, 2016 at 12:00:46
jec01
Audiophile

Posts: 1462
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Joined: September 22, 2004
 In 2015 we heard cellist Vincent Belanger playing live alongside an excellent Audio Note system at the Capital Audio Fest. There was no comparison. If a system that good sounded that different than live performance, then I don't see any way that I'll ever close the gap.

Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

RE: viola is actuall really hard to reproduce right. I agree hearing one live makes my jaw drop., posted on December 2, 2016 at 12:34:11
AnalogJ
Audiophile

Posts: 3450
Location: North Shore of Boston
Joined: March 7, 2003
 I agree. I used to play one. I won't buy a pair of speakers that can't reproduce strings with the proper resonance and body.

 

Especially an acoustic instrument, posted on December 2, 2016 at 15:14:55
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 so many electric instruments pass through ho hum electronics and speakers. So many recordings of acoustic instrumentals pass through ho hum gear and boards and engineers that need help too. Instrument direct to the ears cant be beat!


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

The fact that you consider the viola a real instrument speaks volumes..., posted on December 2, 2016 at 17:38:48
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31872
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 Sorry, couldn't pass up a chance with that one!

Yea, we are better off enjoying recorded music for what it is and live music for what IT is.

Your last sentence sums things up nicely.



"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

Yeah, Here's My Reality, posted on December 2, 2016 at 18:14:38
Sibelius
Audiophile

Posts: 1364
Location: S.F. Bay Area
Joined: April 4, 2000
 I have two young daughters who are just learning their instruments. One plays flute, one clarinet. VERY beginning players. When my flutist plays in her room it's louder and more full bodied. When the clarinetist plays forget it.

I enjoy my system for what it is. People who claim the only test is if their system sounds like real instruments, what are they smokin'. Maybe those monster speakers with 1000's of watts, but not in my reality.

They learned to play Simple Gifts for their Thanksgiving feast at school. Amazing.

 

RE: The fact that you consider the viola a real instrument speaks volumes..., posted on December 2, 2016 at 18:21:08
russ69
Audiophile

Posts: 951
Joined: December 13, 2009
 "Yea, we are better off enjoying recorded music for what it is and live music for what IT is."


Exactly. Enjoy the recording arts, it's a separate experience and stands on it's own.

 

RE: The fact that you consider the viola a real instrument speaks volumes..., posted on December 3, 2016 at 02:55:56
JURB
Audiophile

Posts: 2056
Location: North Ohio
Joined: May 29, 2016
 You CANNOT reproduce live music perfectly. I read somewhere that for example to reproduce a muted trumpet would take tens of thousands of watts, and of course speakers that can handle it.

I used to work at a music store and before I got there I didn't realize how LOUD some of these woodwinds are, like a sax, damn. I have a trumpet so I know how loud those are but I thought woodwinds would be alot more mellow. Nope. I have an accordion and that thing goes pretty loud if you push it.

I used to play out with some people and we needed a shit ton of power to keep up with the live drums. But then at the music store I ran into a really good drummer who could play quieter. Damn he is good. They did "Green Eyed Lady" and even at that lower level I heard dynamic range I almost never heard before. And I have been to concerts. I mean the Cleveland Orchestra. I also wear the badge of shame when they walked off stage at Lakewood High School because kids were throwing spitballs at them, but trust me I did not do it. I liked it, IT am like "YOU ASSHOLES". What a bunch of assholes really, we were not forced to go to there. You don't like it GTFO. But the Cleveland orchestra, and I am not into hype and bullshit or even pride, IS one of the best in the world and they will NEVER go back the Lakewood HS. The fact that they came in the first place was a high honor IMO, to play in such a small venue, FOR FREE ! What a bunch of assholes, it is a shame to even be associated with them. I was a juvenile delinquent and did other things (mainly cut school) and eventually got thrown out. Maybe I am proud to have been thrown out now that I think of it.

Moreso, I have a violin and have attempted to play it. The skill to do so correctly is phenomenal, and this from someone who made a ton of money doing things nobody else could do in the electronics field. There are no frets ! I just barely got the feel a little bit of where to put my fingers, but then that varies from one violin to another. That's probably why they each have their own and don't just grab them from a bin at the beginning of a concert. But I bet a pro can adjust. There is a post, VERY old on the net about my first experience with the violin, I'll see if I can find it. People cracked up. I didn't know about the rosin, I boiled it, nuked it and everything and later found out how to use it. And then I was playing the thing backwards ! One Woman with a daughter who played violin said they were literally ROFL. You know people say that but it really happens very rarely. She said it did this time.

I also used to be in possession of a classical acoustic guitar. the action is much harder but that is necessary because apparently it is meant to be played harder, to be louder. And loud it was. the guy who owns it eventually took it back and probably pawned it. It was not in good shape but another buddy of mine, just out of the goodness of his heart or whatever, restored it. That guy just recently had a stroke. I will have to go see him, good dude. Was a Texas oil man but when that petered put came up here. got a shit job but found a good olady who also worked and between them bought a nice little house which was very finely appointed I must say. They also had a karaoke machine and made us sing. Definitely a bit off, ever have pork and beans for a Christmas party ? (not the canned kind, the cooked for three days kind) They made me sing "What A Wonderful World". And they said it sounded great ! Can't do that anymore right because I stopped smoking cigarettes since then. I wonder what Louie Armstrong smoked. Probably dried tree leaves.

And actually, alot of singers are quite loud. To get the tone they want they have to just about scream, this is especially true of some rock music.

And there are people like my Mother who could never stand live music, even though she is hard of hearing. When it gets over a certain dB level it all turns to noise. And that is even without hearing aids.

This is long enough.

 

RE: The fact that you consider the viola a real instrument speaks volumes..., posted on December 3, 2016 at 05:38:23
throwback
Audiophile

Posts: 762
Location: Colorado
Joined: December 8, 2003
 Very funny post!

 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 3, 2016 at 06:31:01
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Nice post! gkirkos

I enjoy recorded music for its inherent value. I enjoy live events for its inherent value.

 

RE: The fact that you consider the viola a real instrument speaks volumes..., posted on December 3, 2016 at 14:43:02
bwaslo
Manufacturer

Posts: 245
Location: Portland, OR USA
Joined: September 10, 2006
 >>. I wonder what Louie Armstrong smoked. Probably dried tree leaves.

Nope, wasn't tree leaves...
_

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Yep - pretty sure Pops..., posted on December 3, 2016 at 15:19:31
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31872
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 smoked whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted.


"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 6, 2016 at 10:41:46
Inmate51
 "Great opportunity to compare to live sound, right?"

Recorded sound intended for "typical" music listening is produced in several ways, depending on the goals. One recording may be produced to give a sense of the concert hall, while others may be produced to give a sense of a smaller room with seating for a few dozen or a couple hundred people, and others may be produced for other sonic/emotional goals. Within these approaches, various microphone choices/positioning and mixing/EQ-ing techniques are employed to achieve what the artist and producer decide is a good representation of what they want to present to the listener.

Only on very specialized recordings, where the sole intention is to capture the actual live sound of an individual instrument or small ensemble, does a comparison between live and recorded sound begin to be somewhat valid. Even in this case, the details of the recording environment and equipment are of extreme importance. In all other recordings, natural or artificial ambient sound interferes with presenting a natural sound via a sound reproduction system in another room.

In addition, even with a specialized recording designed to capture only the essence of the instrument - without room sound, there is another issue - one which I've hammered on for decades. That is: A loudspeaker has a given/defined dispersion pattern. It is set in stone, frequency by frequency. If it's down 12 dB at 5000 Hz at 90 degrees off axis, it's down 12 dB at 5000 Hz at 90 degrees off axis no matter what instrument is playing or how the recording was made. Real musical instruments have different sound radiation/dispersion patterns - they're not all the same!

:)


 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 6, 2016 at 10:59:33
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 ...there is certainly nothing like the sound of a real instrument in the room.

What not everyone seeks that experience, I heartily agree!

Enjoy her stay. :)

 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 7, 2016 at 07:31:17
marlin
Audiophile

Posts: 154
Location: Sandy, Oregon
Joined: November 20, 2012
 If I want to listen to music I am better off staying home and listening.
That said there are some performers that just need to be heard/seen live to get to the essence, some not so much.
Even though reproduced music will never sound like live music there are "small sounds" in recorded music that can't be distinguished in most live performances.
My take after seeing hundreds of live shows.
Without music what is there?

 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 7, 2016 at 09:07:02
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 If I want to listen to music I am better off staying home and listening.

For any amplified venues, I would definitely agree. On the other hand, I love hearing a good symphony in a nice hall.

 

RE: Well, I'm done, posted on December 8, 2016 at 15:31:18
Jack D II
Audiophile

Posts: 1535
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Joined: June 17, 2009
 There's just not enough money.

 

RE: viola is actuall really hard to reproduce right. I agree hearing one live makes my jaw drop., posted on December 9, 2016 at 09:49:15
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 I have optimized the sound to a well recorded trumpet, and everything gets a little better. Nothing gets messed up.

But you have to have a lot of experienc eon how the instrument actually sounds - rather than trying to make the instrument "sound good" you need to make it sounds like it does in life.

And it pays to be picky.

Or you will have a "messed up sound"
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

RE: viola is actuall really hard to reproduce right. I agree hearing one live makes my jaw drop., posted on December 9, 2016 at 10:44:56
Inmate51
 "One could fudge a system to get just the Viola right, but everything else would be messed up."

That doesn't even make sense. An audio recording system, and subsequent reproduction system, is either frequency and temporally good/right, or it's not.



 

Well-recorded Trumpet, posted on December 9, 2016 at 13:29:55
Inmate51
 Ha! Which model of trumpet?

A Yamaha "Chicago"? A Getzen "Eterna"? A King "Silver Flair"? A Bach "Stradivarius"? A Jupiter XO 1600i (designed by my buddy Roger Ingram)?

Which mouthpiece? Which player? Which microphone? Etc.

Way back in 1974, I did a comparison of several well-known "studio" microphones. I'd have to go look at my notes to get the entire list, but a few of them were the Neumann KM84 and U87, the AKG C451, and a few others. Recorded at 15 ips 2-track on a modded (by Georges Quellet and John Curl) Stellavox Sp7.

They all sounded different from each other.

So, exactly WHICH trumpet/mouthpiece/player/microphone did you optimize your system for?

(BTW, I play trumpet, so I've got a bit of a handle on this.)

:)

 

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