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Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?

67.185.136.137
Posted on August 22, 2016 at 10:06:19
jmunky3
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Joined: February 24, 2016
 Hello again folks,

So I've decided on getting a Space-Tech Labs Tube Pre-Amp as main investment along with Anticable Speaker wires and either their IC or Space-Tech Labs IC cables and some 12 awg power cables for other components.

Since I don't listen to CD's at home all that often anymore I'm forgoing a straight DAC for my system.

I'm now trying to decide between going with high grade Bluetooth/Apt-X Reciever or wiring directly to Pre-Amp Input from Smartphone.

Options to go with are a simple BT/Apt-X Receiver or a BT/Apt-X with built-in DAC, which is a little bit to a few hundred bucks cheaper then a solid quality cable to connect. Or cable options are Anticable L2.2 Copper IC or Space-Tech Labs Copper IC.

1) So how much of a difference in quality of sound will I have between basic Apt-X BT vs Apt-X with DAC (built-in 24/96k) vs Hardwired Direct Connection with Anticable or S-T Labs IC from Headphone Output of Smartphone?

I sit in same spot 90% of time while listening to music. Cable length would be 4-4.5m, so movement isn't really a big issue, just sound quality.

Next is about base metal and plating of connectors and wire. I've read numerous opinions and conductivity reports, a fair bit that conflict, on Copper, Silver, Gold and mixed/plated metals for wire and connectors. Order of best to least and basic plus/minus of each metal?


2.a.) Is there a worth while difference between high Copper Brass and Pure Copper Base metal for connectors?

2.b.) Copper base metal, Tellarium or Beryllium? Worth while cost wise?

2.c.) Copper with plating of Gold? Silver? Rhodium? Platinum? Palladium? A Combo of those for Speaker Posts, Spades/Bananas and RCA M and F Connectors?

3) For IC wire, UP-OCC Copper? UP-OCC Copper plated with Silver? Gold? OCC Silver? OCC Silver with Gold?


Next set of questions is about where I should put remainder of my budget.

The Sony I'm using for power amp has Elna and Nichicon Electrolytics from 90s, stock nickel plated RCA jacks and stock spring clip speaker terminals. All components have stock power cords.

4) So, budget should go towards what in which order?

A) PCX Power Center Kit With or Wihtout basic Large Bybee Quantum Purifier? ($70 kit + $100 Bybee at mains IEC input + $12-$30 for 14 or 12 awg power cord, + maybe Cardas RH+AG over copper Plug and IEC ($50 Pair) or could wire directly into Power Center instead of IEC receptacle, stock cable plugs are Nema I think. Kit power outlets are Leviton Hospital grade.)

B) Upgrade parts/connectors/tubes on S-T Labs Pre-Amp ($50-$450)

C) Upgrade RCA male connectors on IC cables to KLE Harmony plugs... Copper, Silver, Pure or Absolute? Or is there something better for under $120 for set of 4 plugs?

D) Upgraded parts on X Over:
-Caps
-Resistors

E) Upgrade Speaker Post Terminals over stock spring clips. ($60-$175 range for set of 4)


F) Upgrading parts on Sony Amp:
1- adding Speaker Post Terminals over stock spring clips ($60-$145 for set of 4 posts)
2- replacing stock RCA F jacks for power amp input with solid quality jacks. ($35-$75 a pair)
3- Upgrading 3 fuses from 1990 stock glass fast blow fuses to HiFi Tuning Gold fuses

G) Upgrading standard home wall power outlet to Leviton Hospital Grade or similar outlet.

H) Cryogenically treating all Cables and Connectors, Tubes and maybe X-Over Coils the and Pre/Power Amp Transformers ($50 per 5 lbs plus shipping both ways)

 

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RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 22, 2016 at 13:41:30
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16246
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 My kids just plug their phones into my system using the headphone jack. The phone already has less than perfect CD quality files, so no amount of extra DAC or Apt-X gear is going to make up for the lack of quality at the beginning. Just buy a good quality gold plated RCA to a stereo mini-plug cable and you're done for less that $20.

-Rod

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 22, 2016 at 17:36:09
PAR
 I think that you have been reading (and thinking about it) too much without understanding what actually matters.

Please do not get involved in matters of cable materials or with upgrading crossover components at this stage. Yes they make a difference but there is neither agreement nor any final conclusion as to the ranking of any of the alternatives. Cables are an interesting subject but, as a metaphor, you are concentrating on the salt and pepper rather than the steak.

As Rod M implies, the important thing is to get a good source. Bluetooth APT-X is capable of decent sound quality but ultimately it is just a lossy codec. In this context the fact that the DAC you are thinking of handles 24/96 is irrelevant.

Tell us about what audio file ripping and storage you use or what (if any) streaming service you subscribe to. If you just want to use your phone as a source, where do the tracks come from? Some smartphones only play MP3 others will play hi-rez FLACs, so what do you have/use?

Frankly using a phone as primary source is ultimately not going to be better than adequate and not of real audiophile quality.

Spend the few hundred dollars that you have on your source/DAC /amplifier/speakers and not initially on cables. Great cables only reveal how good or poor the other components are, not round the other way.

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 22, 2016 at 18:00:53
Joey54
Audiophile

Posts: 132
Location: PA
Joined: September 10, 2002
 I am using an Arcam rBlink and Tidal directly into my Belles Integrated amp and it sounds very good. Not as good as my Modwright Transporter but surprisingly satisfying and enjoyable. The rBlink is $249 and Tidal is $20/mo.

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 22, 2016 at 23:07:34
jmunky3
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Joined: February 24, 2016
 Arcam and 2 other equal quality brands are the main BT Receivers I'm considering, at least 2 or i think probably all 3 have built in up sampling DACS specifically for BT signal.

I've come across several formats/apps for music streaming that look to be geared more towards high quality and rate of sound. Is Tidal is something along those lines?




 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 23, 2016 at 00:54:43
Joey54
Audiophile

Posts: 132
Location: PA
Joined: September 10, 2002
 Yes, Tidal HiFi streams at higher quality. Tidal has two tiers. Tidal Premium (lossy quality) $10mo. and Tidal HiFi (lossless CD quality) $20mo.

I find that Tidal HiFi sounds really good with the Arcam rBlink. The rBlink has a digital output which you can hook into a higher quality DAC if you have one as well.

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 23, 2016 at 03:21:33
jmunky3
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Joined: February 24, 2016
 Thanks for you help. I do need to replace or buy (either don't have needed size, numbers or item at all) most of the items I mentioned regardless.

Old speaker wire, speaker inputs and part of old crossover will be used for bi amp of 25w rms Alnico Speakers. Old RCA IC cables are too short for adding new tube preamp, 2nd amp to bi amp plus Sony Amp and my CD player and Recorder (which I want great cable to record to via preamp, I can select a couple different rates and formats including digital or analog 44.1 for copying music for CD use in vehicles, DAC on/off, line, mic on/off and level, etc.) New longer cable from phone to preamp (other is a tad short and 3.5mm plug is starting to breakdown after 3 years, cable is a Schosce?)

I have 2 new pairs of speaker (Eton Silk Tweeter 19SD1 3/4", Audax Aerogel HM100ZO 4" Mids (still have to redo x over and install all 3) to be paired with stock Sony Paper Cone Woofers and EV Alnico Speakers) that require new cross overs to go with stock woofer. I also am adding 2 vintage E.V. 12" Alnico Full Range Coaxial Speakers I plan to bi amp.

The current IC and speaker wire were just some 10-15 year old poor quality stuff that was lying around when I got original stereo setup around 15 years ago ($5 for pack of 6 pair of 2 foot RCA and $17 for 100 foot roll 16 awg speaker wire)

So things I must buy regardless are:
2 pair Speaker Cab Posts
2 Crossovers/Parts
2 sets long Speaker Wire (16ft per side)
3-5 IC cables (1 4-4.5m, rest 0.5m-1.5m)
1-6 Power Cables ($13-$30 each)
PCX Power Center ($70)

Optional:
2 or 4 pair Speak Posts for Amp
HiFi Fuses 1-9× (Amps, CD Player, Pre-Amp)
Bybee Quantum Purifier for Power Center for all components power
1 better quality wall power outlet ($30)
Better RCA F jacks for input to Power Amps section on Sony/Bi Amp, CD Player Recorder Input, 1-3 pair of Pre-Amp Outputs and 1-2 pair Inputs
Better quality RCA M for IC ($60-$100 per 4)
Better quality AC cable plugs ($25 each, $50 pair plug/IEC)

Go from UP-OCC Copper IC wire to ACElectrum Silver with Gold IC wire for IC at/under 1.5m length.

BT Reciever or hardwire (the BT Receivers with built-in DAC, from my understanding, specifically only use the DAC to upconvert/OS BT signal to better quality, unlike what the many better R2R NOS non Sigma Delta DACs do)

Upgrading stock parts/options for Pre-Amp: Tube Adapter/Expander (1 small tube like 12AX7 converts to 2 large tubes like KT66) $100 CAD or 2 adapters (4 large tubes vs 2 small glass tubes) for $200 CAD, Output circuit upgrade ($200 CAD), transformers/choke upgrade, PIO Caps/Parts upgrade, etc. Or go up a model or 2 with few to no added upgrades. CAD exchange rate to USD is pretty good.

So for items I must get, is it worth while to spend on getting pure copper or Tellarium copper base metal over high Copper brass?

Most have plating for at least oxidation, options are mostly Gold, Silver and/or Rhodium plated or a combo of those. So I kinda have to choose at least 1 type of base metal and 1 plating to go with for:

Speaker Wire termination-
Amp End:
Speaker End:

RCA M:
RCA F:

Speaker Posts Terminals:

I just have no idea if spending the little bit extra here and there on the various metals is worth while or not.

Main concern is soundstage, musicality and warmth/harmonic richness. Natural balance too.

I've compared my old Sony to new Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, etc and some older Pioneer, Kenwood, etc. and haven't found anything I like even close to my old Sony. NAD, Rotel, Rega and the like I might be able to do, but that removes getting new speaker wire, IC, doing proper x over to match new speakers or going with Tube pre-amp or anything else really. Plus there's really no where even somewhat nearby (within 2 hr drive each way) where I could listen in person to any of them to see if they are in my wheel house sound wise.


My smartphone/Phablet is a Samsung Galaxy Note 4 (will likely get Note 7 within 6 months) which seems to be more invested in music and quality then most... Stock has EQ, some basic Sound Processor/Filters and a few other things for stored music. The phones DAC (for headphone jack) is head and shoulders above any other phone, laptop or tablet I've heard, and on my system currently there is hardly a noticeable difference over CD if any at all when hardwired to amp. Just maybe a tiny dab more detail and depth. Vs BT to newest Marantz amps I tried, there's a big big difference in sound quality and characteristics and it's not a good one. Very sterile and kinda harsh, no depth or musical sound/warmth.

The app I use for most music is Slacker Radio Premium, streaming tops at around 320kbps, which isn't fantastic in comparison to non streaming. But I also usually have playlists download to phone (slacker let's you use phone hard drive or load to removable drive unlike many other apps) and play directly from storage over hardwire cable. As far as what the files are and format for phone, I'm not sure. I don't have many that aren't via slacker app. Plus most of those are converted songs from Internet you can't get anywhere else. In a couple years I'll likely have a High Res/Def Music player like AK, Sony or Pono in which case I'll have to buy many of the songs again and or load the 600+ CD'S I still have.

But for now, I'm actually decently happy with quality of sound from Headphone jack of phone, especially with earbuds. I just want to maximize what I have while also hopefully having decent enough stuff throughout for when I do move up to better quality source material so I don't have to change out a lot of what I just added. I like to find something and stick with it for a while (usually min 5 yrs and avg up to 10-15 yrs)

In the future, once more of all these newer apps/hardware/formats for low loss/high res streaming and wireless have fleshed out more clearly/definitively and more affordable... then I'll make the switch over to those.

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 23, 2016 at 04:39:26
PAR
 Thanks for that very helpful response.

As for the self build ICs and speaker cables I can't offer much advice as it is decades since I built any and much has changed in the cable world since then. Maybe you should post this particular part of your question on the cable forum here? I do use mostly silver cables but ICS only as I do not require speaker cables in my set up.

As for using a Galaxy 7 Note as source then I can offer something on it as I have a Galaxy 7 myself and and am pretty confident that the technology that affects audio play is the same for both models.

The audio quality of the Galaxy 7 was the worst that I have ever heard ( via its hard wire 3.5mm connection). Thin, screechy,distorted and with so little muscle that I could not get it to properly drive any of my headphones or IEMs except for a very expensive pair of low impedence Sony IEMs on loan to me. I even bought a pair of Sennheiser Momentum G IEMs which are specifically intended for Samsung Galaxy products.

So I thought that adding an outboard DAC/Amplifier ( e.g. Audioquest Dragonfly) would help. No good as Samsung have blocked the USB socket for output to such a device ( you can check by running either USB Host Check or USB Host Test apps).

On the good side the Galaxy 7 will play FLAC files ( and other formats) up to 24/192 although I have only tried 16/44.1 so far. Moving audio files to the phone from PC was very straightforward. Player app, BTW, is Poweramp which I recommend. I also have the Samsung player ( not preinstalled ) which doesn't offer the same options for replay e.g. gapless.

So I returned the Sennheisers to the store and got a refund. However before leaving I thought I would try plugging some of the cans on display into the G7 just for luck. No luck, same crap noise. Eventually I found one pair of Sony over ears that actually didn't sound too bad. To double check I went back to the first pair I had tried and -what!- they sounded fine as did all of the others. Put in my own Etymotics which had previously been unlistenable. No problem. Sound is perfectly adequate now for my mobile purposes but not high end (as it were).

I can only guess that I had experienced the most clear example ever of burn in being an issue. Also evidence that burn in can be a step change and not gradual. So if you purchase the G Note 7 and are initially unhappy with the sound I suggest just persevere for a while.

If you like I will try to get my G7 connected through my main rig via Bluetooth and will let you know what the result is. However it will be plain vanilla Bluetooth as it will be via a PC without APT-X.

BTW, love the idea of your EV drivers. Never a brand with much profile here in the UK, I owned a pair of Sentinels in the 1970s (was that the model? A folded bass horn with mid and treble compression drivers) until they were stolen. Greatly missed.

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 23, 2016 at 06:00:52
jmunky3
Audiophile

Posts: 56
Location: Greater Seattle Area
Joined: February 24, 2016
 Yeah, I had a bit of a wait until the device really broke in. Now has 2,000-2,700 hours of play through the 3.5mm jack. It was dramatic change at 1st, then slowly got a little bit better bit by bit over the next 100-200 hours or so. Was metallic, thin and harsh at 1st for sure.


My EV are from mid to late 1960s I think. One of their earlier models for sure, white frame Alnico 12/25, not dark frame 12/20B. Nice overall sound, rich and organic with a little sparkle to mids and highs... best part though is a kind of ghostly 3D soundstage when paired with right gear. Plan to probably use 1969/70 KLE Model 27... nothing special per say, but is loaded with large/higher wattage Carbon Comp R and is very musical, warm and sweet sound, though doesn't really have low level detail. Mostly to add that little bit of Alnico magic to overall sound characteristics and reinforce the soundstage a bit.

You could still probably find a similar pair of EV, maybe the same model, in the States at 1 of many used HiFi vendors. EV I found is much more in demand and pricey for my fellow guitar players vs HiFi. Mine were given to me by my step uncle, who repairs/rebuilds old Tube Radios from 1920s-1970s that he finds at estate and garage sales typically. Not surprising that any American brand is not big in UK. You have a very large assortment of your own brands from basic to high end. Plus service wouldn't be all that manageable either for most part for US made gear.

Even though it's walnuts to oranges, I always vastly prefered alnico in guitar speakers and pickups. Was also very hesitant to use any type of solder with silver in it as several I tried were extremely harsh. So that aspect of cables and connectors concerns me a bit. But the WBT Silver w lead solder works great without harshness or dullness. Found it to be most musical out of Mundorf, Cardas and Johnson solders.

Sure, if you have spare time with little else better to do, trying out the BT on G7 would be great.

Thanks

 

RE: Bluetooth/Apt-X w/ built-in DAC OR Hardwire? Base Metal + Plating? Which Upgrades/Order for Tight Budget?, posted on August 24, 2016 at 04:51:12
PAR
 " trying out the BT on G7 would be great".

After hours of researching how to do this with Windows 10 I have concluded that it cannot be done. The software that Windows had for Bluetooth up to and including Win 8.1 is not replicated in Win 10 and the streaming from a device function is no longer there ( according to both my findings and according to various online expert sources). I have checked that the installed Bluetooth software for my device is up to date. There is no downloadable fix either.

If anyone can show that this is incorrect and that the facility is there then please let me know and advise me on how to configure it.

 

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