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Live violin...

69.7.127.71
Posted on July 16, 2016 at 20:10:11
slapshot
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 Went to the Lucia Micarelli concert tonight in Steamboat Springs. Her, and her ensemble of world class musicians. I believe I have a pretty high quality stereo system, and I have been to concerts where I actually preferred my system to the live performance/sound. Well, not tonight. Not even close. I still like my stereo, but on nights like tonight, it is clear that, sometimes, we are just not going to get close to the absolute sound. A live violin is a live violin.

And, if you want to see someone infuse the music with emotion, with life, go see one of her concerts.

 

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Comapred to what?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 05:22:51
geoffkait
 I suspect your observation would be especially true if you were comparing live to digital.

 

RE: Comapred to what?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 08:03:17
slapshot
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 Live to vinyl or live to digital (I have both) and there are instances when reproduced sound can be better than live, and instances when it just doesn't come close to live.

 

RE: Comapred to what?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 08:42:21
srdavis2000
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 What you describe is the quality or lack thereof of the recording.

 

RE: Comapred to what?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 10:05:29
Ozzie
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 Do note that Slapshot said that on occasion the recording sounds better than live.

 

I read the post. , posted on July 17, 2016 at 10:11:56
srdavis2000
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 My point is that it's the quality of the recording. Some recordings can compare favorably with a live performance and some pale in comparison.

My point being that it's more about the quality of the recording than maybe about the gear or the live sound.

 

I agree, posted on July 17, 2016 at 10:12:45
M3 lover
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 Most live concerts I attend still produce something even the best audio systems I've heard don't offer. Of course it can be a bad hall, or include too much "electronic sound reinforcement". Then a decent recording on a good system can win out.

But for me there remains something about the dynamics, sense of space and air, and simply overall "presence" with live acoustic instruments/voices that our systems have not equalled.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: I agree, posted on July 17, 2016 at 11:11:47
JURB
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 I'm sure the hall has something to do with it. More familiar with rock, but I know in Cleveland when you went to a concert you wanted to go to Public Hall rather than The Coloseum, the latter being built for basketball. It was much harder to manage sonically and did not sound as good, but it had the capacity. If a band only wanted to do three shows instead of ten that was the venue.

And then there's the studio. Every nuance of the sound can be controlled. I heard from a musician once there is/was a recording studio had a well dug to use as an echo chamber. I consider that going to pretty great lengths (or would that be depths) for the sound.

Many rock bands sounded better in studio, that may apply to artists in other genres, why not ?

So if you got a good hall or studio, good recording engineers, a really good recording and a really good system, It is conceivable it might sound better than a violin playing in a baseball stadium or something.

They had rock concerts at the stadium here before they tore it down. The capacity was bigger than anything around. Being open air it did not pose alot of audio problems except for the need for massive amounts of power.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 11:15:50
SgreenP@MSN.com
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 I'm a pro violinist. I have a very high end system....not even close.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 11:24:42
geoffkait
 Just curious, is it true that when a musician is playing in an orchestra, whether it's a violin or oboe or whatever, he actually can't hear his own instrument?

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 13:19:48
SoundMann
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 Tone, dynamics, harmonics and ambiance are what separates live from reproduced sound. Precious few components come close!

 

RE: I read the post. , posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:21:00
slapshot
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 I agree that the quality of the recording is essential to the quality of the playback, but even my best recording of violin, and I've quite a few, pales in comparison to the live instrument (in the right setting).

 

RE: I agree, posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:22:43
slapshot
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 Yes, dynamics and the attack were things I particularly noticed last night. Of course, there is also a visual element when live as you can see the violinist's body movement and facial expressions, which also can contribute to the overall experience.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:25:21
slapshot
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 Well, you would know better than those of us who are not musicians. I think, if we are to be honest with ourselves, it would help us to understand the shortcomings of our systems to see well produced live concerts...of course, some of us might not want to be reminded of the shortcomings of our systems! :)

That being said, since I can't have Lucia Micarelli come over to my house and play for me (indeed, it might be too loud for my listening room anyway), I'll be happy to listen to her recorded music on my stereo.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:28:04
SgreenP@MSN.com
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 Sometimes that is true....its a matter of balance. I'm a violinist, so there are many playing the same notes as I; if I don't become incorporated in the whole, I have to find another job. It goes as far as sting selection for my instrument. Some strings (Evah Pirazzi) are designed with power in mind, and are good for solo work. Some are designed to meld into the whole (Dominant). I have two bows in my case...one with more projection, and one for orchestra work. Even the rosin I select for a performance makes a difference. ....its all balance and the quest of a certain sound one is after.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:52:31
slapshot
Audiophile

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 So, as an audiophile, I assume you've cryogenically treated your violin? :)

 

I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 14:53:59
PhilJ
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 ...

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 15:07:21
slapshot
Audiophile

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 Exactly. I also think most acoustic instruments are much louder live than we realize sometimes.

 

Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 15:28:10
Tre'
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Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
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 .
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 15:40:18
slapshot
Audiophile

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 Not exactly and easy question; there was a mike on the violin, but not on any of the other instruments (cello, bass, viola, violin, piano). There were, however, no obvious speakers facing the audience, only floor speakers facing the musicians themselves. Did not seem amplified at all from the perspective of the audience, I think.

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 15:54:02
Tre'
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 My point was going to be, "the absolute sound" is the sound of live unamplified instruments.

If amplified, the show tells you little about the true sound of the instruments and therefore would not be useful as a reference.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:00:23
slapshot
Audiophile

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 It was not amplified in the sense that a rock and roll concert is amplified--I would say that the sound would have been very similar were there no mics at all, in fact. Most of the time, when I have heard live violins, they are not amplified.

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:02:17
Byrd69
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 I've heard live violins and plenty of recorded violins. It's one tough instrument get a speaker to reproduce anywhere near the true sound.
I've have some Acoustat 2+2 and Spectra 11 that come damned close (at louder volumes).


Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)

I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)

Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)

Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)

 

RE: Live violin..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:14:43
slapshot
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 The task of taking the sound from an instrument like the violin, vibration of air molecules, transducing that through a microphone, recording it, transferring it back to some medium (vinyl, digital), and then having the speakers (cone, planar, horns) reproduce that sound with accuracy...well, it seems like an incredibly monumental task.

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:18:48
geoffkait
 It may be that they are louder live but can I just suggest it's the dynamic range that's key, not loudness per se, especially in view of the overly compressed nature of much of today's music, CDs in particular but also LPs, SACDs, and yes, even hi res downloads. Even the stuff that's "normal," and not overly compressed, is compressed to some extent. Hel-looo!

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:23:50
slapshot
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 Yes, which goes back to your point below about the quality of the recording being key.

Seems to me there is probably no perfect way of recording a sound from a single instrument like the violin. Can one close mic something AND also capture the effect of the room with other mics? I don't know enough about the recording process to understand what the limitations must be.

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:32:28
geoffkait
 Actually the recording quality comment was the other dude's comment. My comment has to do more with how the final product is engineered after the recording is made. Thus perfectly well recorded uh, recordings are being aggressively compressed. The overly compressed CDs, etc. may be fine in many or most other respects, e.g., frequency response, resolution, etc. It's the over-compression that's the real killer.

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:38:32
slapshot
Audiophile

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 I agree....there are so many steps in the recording process where things can go wrong.

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:40:14
Tre'
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Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
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 Unamplified should be your reference.

Here's some info from The Strings Music Pavilion website,

Sound Reinforcement System
Designed and installed by Summit Integrated Systems of Colorado to maximize the clarity of the amplified sound in a unique, live acoustic venue.

Three (3) full range 3-way Danley SH46 main loudspeakers in an "exploded" mono configuration.
Six (6) Bag End TA6000S full range 2-way front fill speakers set into the front of the stage.
Loudspeaker management and DSP controlled by Biamp Systems AudiaFLEX-CM and loudspeaker amplification provided by Lab Gruppen class D amplifiers.
Subwoofers: Two (2) EAW LA188Z speakers.
Monitors: Eight (8) EAW MicroWedge MW12 full range 2-way floor monitors powered by Lab Gruppen class D amplification.
The FOH sound/light booth is located 40' from the front of the stage, center. The FOH Board is a Behringer X32. Monitors may be run by iPad via X32-Mix, or through an Allen & Heath GL3000. 40X8 Horizon splitter snake - 3 way. Monitor station is stage left. 92 db limit in the house.

Tre'

Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:47:23
Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17302
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002
 It's not about things going wrong per se.

The engineers compress the sound on purpose.

Tre'


Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:50:24
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 Thanks, Tre, very interesting.

I'm not convinced they were using this system as only Micarelli's violin had a microphone--could they have used only part of the system? Simple don't know. Nevertheless, I've heard live violins that were not amplified (e.g., many years ago, Midori in a solo concert) and I had the same impression, though not as strong because Micarelli tends to be much more dynamic, particularly in the type of music she plays.

 

RE: I heard a live violin and was struck by how powerful it sounded, hi fi suffers in comparison..., posted on July 17, 2016 at 16:51:21
slapshot
Audiophile

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Joined: January 9, 2006
 I agree that they compress the sound on purpose, but I'm assuming that, in recording, there are certain tradeoffs as to the position of the mic, the type of mic, etc.

 

You need to turn your hi-fi to "11" to get it to sound as powerful [nt], posted on July 17, 2016 at 19:30:42
Chris from Lafayette
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  Since: February 6, 2012

 

the best recorded sound I ever heard, posted on July 17, 2016 at 19:44:53
DrChaos
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Location: San Diego
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 was an exhibit at the Smithsonian in the 90's.

They were using Apogee Divas & Aragon amps to demonstrate the sound of their historical instruments in their collection.

 

Do solo strings sound better in mono?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 19:45:48
genungo
 Solo string instruments like violin and cello can sound pretty awesome in true mono (mono or folded stereo recording/mono speaker).

Not as good with mono recording on stereo (comb-filtering effects).

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

RE: Do solo strings sound better in mono?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 20:25:04
SoundMann
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Posts: 588
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 Yes genungo. Especially when the system is comprised of an air-field coil loudspeaker, being driven by a single-ended triode amp, with a proper analog source of course!

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 17, 2016 at 21:49:37
Todd Krieger
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Posts: 37333
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Joined: November 2, 2000
 There are not many good recordings of the violin..... But here is one of them.......... (Albeit compressed.)

 

Live violin? no problem with Magnepan 3.6.. The thing not right is cello.., posted on July 17, 2016 at 21:53:11
Smelly_Socks
 I find it is really hard to have ONE setup which can do Rock AND chamber Classical
Lows right/ If I get the chamber music spot on, then Rock has way way too much bass.

 

As a regular symphony goer. AMEN!, posted on July 18, 2016 at 11:26:02
richardl
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Posts: 3555
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 There is no comparison between live acoustic music in a well designed concert hall and a recording of any kind on audio gear. I heard a live pianist yesterday in a home and it blew away any audio reproduction that I have heard of solo piano. The recording might be of a pianist that is better than the amateur player but, the sound is not at all comparable IMO.

 

RE: Live accoustic? or live amplified?, posted on July 18, 2016 at 11:28:12
slapshot
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 The comments were interesting to read as well.

 

Not to me, posted on July 18, 2016 at 12:17:22
Chris from Lafayette
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 In fact, when I want to listen to the Bach Unaccompanied Sonatas and Partitas, I usually reach for J-Fi's account on Pentatone, in all its 5.1 glory - the violin is always centered right in front of me, and I feel that I'm in the environment where she made the recording rather than in my own living room.

 

RE: Field Coil, posted on July 18, 2016 at 17:41:50
genungo
 I have never heard a field coil speaker. What do they do that's so special?

 

RE: Not to me, posted on July 18, 2016 at 17:46:10
genungo
 Is the center channel the primary channel in this 5.1 recording? Or do L/C/R share the burden almost equally? Or..?

 

RE: As a regular symphony goer. AMEN!, posted on July 18, 2016 at 19:43:10
slapshot
Audiophile

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 Seems like you had the same experience as I did. Remarkable and somewhat depressing all at the same time. I am verily impressed by the intellect and dedication of audio designers and engineers for all they try to do to recreate the "absolute" sound....but it is clearly a monumental task and I just don't think we are all that close yet. Still, love listening to music on my stereo, and am thankful for all the effort they put into getting things to where they are...but, ah, that solo violin, or piano live! What an amazing thing to behold!

 

I suppose in a way you could say that all 5 channels share the burden. . . , posted on July 18, 2016 at 23:57:26
Chris from Lafayette
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 . . . in the sense that they all contribute to the sense of placement within the original acoustic. However, you're right in supposing that the center channel is primary. BTW, I believe I was wrong in calling this a 5.1 channel recording - I think all the Pentatones are 5.0. (And besides, the .1 channel wouldn't have a lot to do on a recording of a solo violin anyway!)

 

RE: Field Coil, posted on July 19, 2016 at 09:53:40
SoundMann
Audiophile

Posts: 588
Joined: October 21, 2015
 Air-field coil loudspeakers have a eerily "life-like" sound that no other type of speaker has been able to duplicate!

 

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