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TIDAL and quality

174.18.28.49
Posted on April 26, 2016 at 12:17:16
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 This is the second time I have tried TIDAL. I use the lossless mode, which is 19.99 a month. While I find it a good way to explore music I don't have, again I am not happy with the quality. I have lossless that I have ripped from CD's of the same music and frankly, the quality from TIDAL just isn't there. As lossless, it should be the same basic quality.

I have a good internet connection, run it from my Mac to a Chord Mojo or Chord Hugo via a custom USB cable, to a micro ZOTL headphone amp. The depth, transparency, bass and general quality just isn't near what they state one should get. I read how many are happy with the sound but also wonder if it is just that they are used to compressed and flat sounding music but lossless should be that, lossless and if from a good quality recording the sound should be there but IMO, with TIDAL, it is not.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

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RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 12:45:30
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 I listen to Tidal over a very good high end system and the quality of sound is outstanding. You must open Tidal in Chrome. If not you will not get 16/44 quality sound. I compare tidal to cds played on an Audio note transport and Audio-Gd Master 7 dac and the are very close to being identical. Several of my friends stream Tidal and they agree with me.
Alan

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 12:48:01
mraudio
Audiophile

Posts: 459
Location: Northern Colorado
Joined: November 4, 2006
 Sorry to hear you're not happy. I have been with Tidal from the very beginning here in the states.

I get SUPERB sound quality from my Sonos Connect. It feeds into my DAC. I have A/B'ed it with my very expensive transport and music server also both to the same DAC. There is very little difference.

Gobs of depth, excellent soundstaging, ambiance, layering. I'm just smitten with it.

And yes, I know how and what to listen for/to.

 

I will work more . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 13:12:31
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 with the settings.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

Thanks for the info. . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 13:14:08
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 I will work more with the settings. I don't open TIDAL in anything, just in TIDAL.

But I am going to work more with the settings as there has to be something that is not right or there wouldn't be so many that use and enjoy it.

Thanks for the input.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 13:42:17
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
 I agree in some ways. When I compare material from Tidal (lossless 19.95 membership) with CDs burned onto my 2015 MacBook (i7, 16GB, 1TB SSD, used only for music) with JRiver MC21, I think the MC21 burned material sounds better (slightly more dynamic sounding, little better focus, more spatial cues).

That said, I still enjoy Tidal and think it sounds pretty good (just not identical with my ripped material). But there are other variables that I have not been able to optimize. Tidal is streamed in through Fios optical, converted and piped via 50' of Ethernet. There may be issues of noise contamination from the router's switching PS? In any event, my Tidal equipment chain is considerably more complex than playing material from my laptop's hard drive.

You know what else sounds different? I can play Tidal from Ethernet or WiFi and they sound different too.

 

RE: Thanks for the info. . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 14:04:46
Jeffrey Lee
Audiophile

Posts: 708
Location: Louisville
Joined: September 24, 2002
 TIDAL is a streaming service so you have to open it in something. The TIDAL web player will only provide lossless streams if used with Chrome. Not sure how that impacts quality when not using the web player.

 

RE: Thanks for the info. . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 14:22:59
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 You don't realize but anytime you open a program on your computer you are opening it in your default browser. You might be in internet explorer so you have to download Google Chrome and set it as your default browser. If you don't do this you are getting less than cd quality sound When you run a file in tidal. Down at the right hand side of the screen when you are running a file in Tidal it says HIFI. If HIFI is gray you are getting poor sound. If it glows white you are getting cd quality sound. This is a must. Also in Tidal settings you must select HIFI. If you can't then you are not opening in Chrome
Alan

 

I run . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 14:30:53
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 Safari as my default and don't like Chrome. The HiFI is white and in settings, not greyed out, TIDAL indicates that HIFI is being used.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

RE: I run . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 15:05:56
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
 You can NOT stream lossless Tidal using Safari only Chrome. Or you can download their player (Mac or PC) and get lossless. But if you are opening up Safari and logging into Tidal, you are not getting HiFi.

 

Sorry, yes. . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 15:24:53
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 I downloaded their player, that is how I use TIDAL.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 15:43:12
Dave_K
 I access Tidal though my Linn streamers. When comparing Tidal streaming to local streaming of albums I've ripped to my NAS, sometimes I can't tell the difference but often I can. When I can't tell the difference, it's usually a small label/indie/audiophile album. The differences are more common with major label stuff. Some of the more obvious differences are due to mastering. With classic albums that have been remastered to death, usually only one version is available on Tidal and it's not always clear which one. But even when comparing the same version, sometimes I notice more grain/grunge when streaming from Tidal vs. from NAS.

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 15:52:18
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 1294
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
 Interesting. My experience with Tidal is very different. All of the qualities that you've found to be lacking are present for me in good measure. In my experience the presentation is spacious, relaxing and immersive. That last quality is very important to me. It means that I'm able to use Tidal for hours at a time without any hint of listening fatigue. I'd like to see them improve the user interface and gain level matching, but that's different.

It's good enough that I've packed up my CD/SACD player. For digital I use Tidal, JRMC 21 and radioparadise.com. That combination works really well for me. I hope you get your troubles with Tidal sorted.

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:09:25
Javier
Audiophile

Posts: 338
Location: Laredo
Joined: December 14, 2005
 I'm quite happy with tidal using it trough room squeezebox touch analog out to a jolida integrated and certainly aim listening less and less to cd

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:14:41
seas
Manufacturer

Posts: 138
Joined: December 21, 2006
 Have you looked at the settings in your Audio MIDI utility? Make sure those are correct. I'd also try it through Chrome just to make sure the issue is not with the program. I run Tidal through my Squeezebox Touch. Compared with the same CD's in my own music library, the sound is virtually identical.

 

Tidal on Auralic Aries, no problems, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:22:56
bullethead
 I have no sound quality issues with Tidal.

Running Auralic Aries via AES/EBU into my DAC. Wired ethernet.

Also run it on a Sonos Connect via Optical into the same DAC, also wired ethernet.

Not sure where the bottleneck would be with this one. I paid $16.99 a month for 6 months paid in advance.

I have noticed some obscure titles on Tidal are still mp3, could that be a reason? All the FLAC streams sound wonderful to me and I can't really tell any difference between my FLAC rips and the Tidal streams.

 

apples to apples?, posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:28:20
mhardy6647
Audiophile

Posts: 16013
Location: New England
Joined: October 12, 1999
Contributor
  Since: October 23, 2016
 Not "Apples" ;-)

I am really naive about this streaming stuff -- what I am asking (which may not even be 'correct'): is the only variable in your listening the bitstream, so to speak? Same DAC, same sampling rate, same cables, same analog preamp/driver/buffer stages, etc.

Seems to me if there are even two variables (the digital data source and any one other), it's hard to "blame" any difference on TIDAL per se.

Maybe I am just really simpleminded, though.

all the best,
mrh

 

RE: Sorry, yes. . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 16:44:46
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
 Ok, then you are getting lossless. Do you see an option under "settings" >"streaming" >"Sound Output"?

On my Macbook Pro, I have three options:

1) system default
2) built in output
3) PS Audio 2.0 audio out (my DAC)

Every single time I turn on the Tidal app, I have to reset from "system default" to "PS Audio 2.0 audio out". It is an annoying extra step but it makes a clearly audible difference.

 

Yes, I set it . . , posted on April 26, 2016 at 21:37:27
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 to the Mojo or the Hugo.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

Do You Really Know What You're Getting?, posted on April 26, 2016 at 21:46:39
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "This is the second time I have tried TIDAL. I use the lossless mode, which is 19.99 a month. While I find it a good way to explore music I don't have, again I am not happy with the quality. I have lossless that I have ripped from CD's of the same music and frankly, the quality from TIDAL just isn't there. As lossless, it should be the same basic quality."

Lossless can be based on MP3 resolution, CD resolution, or high resolution (DSD/SACD/DVD-A)..... If this is not specified, you really don't know what you're getting.............

Same goes for whether you're getting a direct master or a third or fourth hand processed file..... Or even a "high-resolution" file that was upsampled from a lower resolution. There are no standards or specifications for this.

"I have a good internet connection, run it from my Mac to a Chord Mojo or Chord Hugo via a custom USB cable, to a micro ZOTL headphone amp. The depth, transparency, bass and general quality just isn't near what they state one should get."

Could also be a jitter or decoding issue.... I've never liked how any lossless format sounded decoded in real time. You might have a different opinion if the file is pre-decoded and stored uncompressed.

"I read how many are happy with the sound but also wonder if it is just that they are used to compressed and flat sounding music but lossless should be that, lossless and if from a good quality recording the sound should be there but IMO, with TIDAL, it is not."

I was never impressed with music file services...... For the reasons stated above...... As I stated before, you don't know what you're getting.

 

I keep getting the feeling..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 02:53:09
genungo
 ... that computer-based audio is still in the "rabbit hole" phase of it's evolution. So, I would tend to agree with what Todd Krieger is saying.

Computer-based audio should always be easier than loading a CD into a tray but it is not always so, at least not at this point in time. I should always know exactly what I'm getting and the music should always play exactly as I expect it to, each and every time I push or swipe something that resembles a "play" actuator.

Instead, I go to Computer Asylum and notice that, as a "format replacement" of sorts, computer-based audio can be as fiddly and time-consuming as any physical format ever was... or is. Software problems, followed by hardware problems, followed by...

So that one gets the feeling that one is not completely sure of what one is actually getting, in the end (no pun intended). Marketing and holography don't mix very well, at least not for me. It should not be possible to walk two or three steps ahead of wherever the hell it is that the sidewalk ACTUALLY is.

 

Your 3rd paragraph is also my observation, posted on April 27, 2016 at 05:01:52
cdb
Audiophile

Posts: 2948
Joined: April 6, 2001
 and throw in all those acronyms thrown about, and I get rapidly lost.
Plus all the little USB and other dongles to add in...

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 27, 2016 at 05:43:13
PAR
 " even when comparing the same version".

I think that you allude to this elsewhere in your post but how does one know if the item provided by the record company to Tidal is identical to the one on retail sale? I mean one cannot even guarantee that what is apparently the same CD obtained from one territory is identical to that from another (I have a few American and UK CDs of the same item which, although looking the same, do not sound identical).

There is also the question of matters such as watermarking. There was a thread on PC Audio a few weeks ago stating that ALL repertoire from UMG supplied for streaming or downloading is watermarked. I don't know how true this is but someone from another major record company confirmed to me that all of his company's repertoire that he gets for validation (for copyright and label copy in his case) is also watermarked. However, before everyone panics, I am not absolutely certain that he understands exactly what watermarking is so I will question him again about this when I next see him.

Whatever the situation is, without proof that the streamed repertoire from Tidal and what the consumer may have in his/her personal collection are identical any comparison will be invidious.

 

Right on! , posted on April 27, 2016 at 06:35:56
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 Computer audio reminds me of when I was trying to set up a video server back in 1995. Headless this, server that, ingest with this, distribute with that.

Fiddly is the perfect word. I don't want to fiddle with software or hardware...that's not my hobby. I want to hit a button on the remote and get high quality music without spending 30 minutes "getting ready."

That's what I have a turntable for...lol.

 

Fiddling, posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:22:38
genungo
 Hey, I love to fiddle sometimes. Many audiophiles seem to love it as well. If I hated fiddling, I wouldn't run vinyl.

It's just that PC audio is sorta creepy. There is this *air of mystery* that hovers over PC-based audio and I do not always feel confident enough to trust whatever and/or whoever it is that might be dangling on the unseen end of that internet cable and/or hovering up there in that cloud.

PC audio is not necessarily what I'd call an "anonymous activity". You simply never know if/when someone is watching, recording your every move. When I play my records or CDs, OTOH, the only ones I have to worry about are my physical neighbors and I have specific ways of dealing with them.

 

Geez - I think a lot of you guys have a total misconception. . . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:24:58
Chris from Lafayette
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Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
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  Since: February 6, 2012
 . . . of what computer audio is like. Once you get the files onto disc, nothing could be easier. If that's what you mean by "getting ready" (i.e., getting the files onto the disc), then, yes, that's a bit of an effort, but OTOH, it shouldn't be overblown. I mean, any subsequent time you play that recording, it's already there, so, indeed, all you have to do is "hit a button on the remote and get high quality music". It's WAY easier than any other method of playback IMHO. (Because I'm a multi-channel kind of guy, I use HDMI connectivity, rather than USB - it seems that at least half the discussion over on the PC Audio forum here deals with USB problems - real or imagined!) I also think that the supposed problems with RFI in playing back music files via computer are totally overblown, especially compared to other methods of playback. In fact, one of my CD/Universal players has a fan, which is WAY more audible than any RFI noise from computer playback.

C'mon, guys - jump on in! The water's fine!

 

Then don't stream or store your files in "the cloud" [nt] ;-), posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:32:51
Chris from Lafayette
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Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

+1 for 2 Ch! I have USB and Firewire Dacs, Software Players, no, posted on April 27, 2016 at 08:35:57
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Server, doodads or smart phone.
I almost never use my disc players anymore.
I also have a Sony Hap Z1, which, except for loading in Files ( which is easy),
isn't even connected to the Computer.
Quality is why I stay with it. DSD and PCM Hi-Res are great and beat the disk players by a mile!
16/44 to DSD 128 also sounds great.
Sometimes I find out about a recording, and a few minutes later I have downloaded it and am listening.
The Aurelic/Aurender combo might be the ultimate ticket for me.

 

RE: total misconception. . . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:01:30
genungo
 The "getting ready" part is not the only part that is worrisome and/or bothersome. Read Todd Krieger's post directly below.

There is more, much more to consider in PC audio besides setup. Unless, of course, one is mostly interested in downloading classical music issued or re-issued by audiophile labels and little else. PC audio is simply not trustworthy enough and/or ready enough for a wide variety of audio-conscious consumers.

If one is a classical music afficionado (as you are) then the burden of PC audio is lifted somewhat. But such is not the case with 99% of listeners -audiophiles or otherwise.

 

Or don't stream at all..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:06:26
genungo
 ... (or download at all) if you value security, anonymity, or privacy at all?

As for "the cloud", lets face it. The future of computing is up there but I'm not overly interested in the future of computing at this point in time, for reasons already given.

 

Don't agree at all. Don't let your Ideas rule. Experience says, posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:14:08
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 PC ( Mac for me ) Audio is great.
I listen to a lot of different types.
Simply playing your ripped CDs is a good place to start.
Not trying it because you "think" it's bogus doesn't make sense to me.

 

I don't stream at all..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:16:23
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10581
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Seems like background music to me.
Downloads from a number of good sources are all I listen to, except for some Internet Radio.

 

RE: Right on! , posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:39:38
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 It can be very easy Run Tidal on your computer. USB output to USB input on dac Dac analog output to preamp. That is really very simple
Alan

 

RE: Your 3rd paragraph is also my observation, posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:42:19
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 But you don't have to throw in all that stuff if you want to keep it simple and it still sounds very good
Alan

 

Ripping schmipping, posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:43:12
genungo
 I probably won't be ripping much until I wear out the perfectly good playback hardware that I already own. But if I did want to rip right now, I would probably not choose to use a PC - not even an *optimized* one.

For about the same price (or even less) as an *optimized* PC one can rip to soundcards using something like the Tascam DA-3000 recorder/player. You can use it to "rip" from anything that has a digital output and it up-samples too, all without the help of the internet. A trustworthy and ready alternative.

Here is an interesting ALTERNATIVE Product for our consideration (no affiliations)...

 

RE: Do You Really Know What You're Getting?, posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:48:05
ahendler
Audiophile

Posts: 5151
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Joined: January 24, 2003
 You really never know what your getting no matter what the format. If you listen to vinyl you never know what went on in the mastering. I know, I did it for many years. Same thing for CD's. Youy have no idea what has been done to produce the CD. Compression, EQ, Artificial echo champers ,20 mics.
Alan

 

Not necessarily., posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:51:47
Todd A.
 My Cambridge Stream Magic requires that I run a program called "Twonky" in order for it to see the files on my Mac, and Twonky has proven itself to be problematic at times. I've also learned that the Cambridge itself has to be periodically unplugged or strange things begin to happen in the playback queue, such as the same track repeating itself over and over again, or long silences as it buffers. Sometimes I wonder if an exorcist is in order...

I know of no plausible explanation for these issues. I've just learned how to correct them, which I guess is enough. I've been ripping to FLAC files in iTunes, but this thread has me wondering if I'd be better serves by getting the JRMC program. I don't relish the idea of having to re-rip all of that material, though, and I'd still have to run Twonky for the player to be able to see the computer.

 

RE: "Once you get the files onto disc...", posted on April 27, 2016 at 09:54:45
cdb
Audiophile

Posts: 2948
Joined: April 6, 2001
 Uh huh. Starting with primarily a 90+% vinyl based library, there's the hurdle.
Then, what file format.
Then what file organizer, and meta art data.
Then multiple backups including one offsite.
Then Ethernet cabling (with CAT choices) installation with no under floor access.
Then a friggin' Apple device to just see the library.

Then break for lunch I suppose. Yes, it would be slick after all that. Especially with 45s.

If I had the resources, I'd go the Steve Miller route: hire a neighbor kid.

 

Problem is..., posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:31:48
genungo
 ... I think that I have finally decided that I want to keep ALL of my personal files (music, literature, photos, whatever) on a device that is never, ever directly connected to the internet. I have come to value my privacy and security and I admit that I really don't trust the Wizard of OZ all that much.

 

RE: Not Knowing What You're Getting?, posted on April 27, 2016 at 10:42:01
genungo
 For me at least, PC audio might add an extra layer of "not knowing what you're getting". I'm mostly interested in recordings from the past.

 

One big thing I notice now after a few days. . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:09:37
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 is that I don't have the transparency, the layering I have with a good rip of the same album. Sure I can listen to the music, it is not offensive but neither does it draw me in; part of the listening experience is absent.




iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

Another example is on the Moody Blues . . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 11:23:45
John PA
Audiophile

Posts: 4019
Location: The lower 48.
Joined: August 27, 2000
 The Best Way to Travel song, at around 1:30 you have the sound going in front of you, it is in front and circling to the point of being in back of you and around and around it goes. On TIDAL all I get is a sound going back and forth from left to right, right to left, no elliptical impression. When I first heard this years ago it was amazing and just too cool. I would turn out the lights and could imagine the sound/instrument making this large arc that would go behind me and around and around.


iBasso DX300MAX Ti. Focal Utopia and Stellia. iBasso SR2. Mr. Speakers, Ether II, Voce stats. Manley, Absolute headphone amp. LTA MZ3, Z10e electrostatic amp. Many other headphones, amps, cables etc.

 

Sounds like a problem with the Cambridge unit?, posted on April 27, 2016 at 12:20:48
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 In any case, once you've got the files on a hard disc, you should be able use anything. I use Audirvana (mostly in iTunes compatibility mode, but not always) and HQ Player. And I know JRMC works for a lot of folks too. And there are plenty of other alternative SW players too if these choices don't suit your fancy. My DAC is my Marantz pre-pro and it plays files from an external RAID drive physically connected to an iMac in another room of the house.

 

I admit, getting the cover art can be dicey, posted on April 27, 2016 at 12:35:46
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012
 . . . especially for obscure recordings. In some case, I've had to resort to making up my own covers. ;-) (Actually though, I could scan the covers myself if I couldn't find them by any other means.)

However, this happens maybe 1%-2% of the time. Mostly, getting the metadata (including the album covers) is a well-tried routine for me, and it really doesn't take that long.

You can reduce your need for backups by using a RAID drive as your primary storage device. Yes, you will still need to make backups every so often - but a lot of this activity can proceed unattended however.

I also appreciate how it might be harder for those with a vinyl library to make the move.

Although I've been an Apple bigot since the mid-80's, I don't see why one would need to use an Apple device just to see one's library - maybe I'm missing something?

Regarding ethernet cabling, mine just runs along the wall-floor boards - not underneath.

 

RE: Or don't stream at all... (Yes - that's what I meant) [nt], posted on April 27, 2016 at 12:37:22
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

It's not one big nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 27, 2016 at 12:59:49
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
Too many people lump every variation into one big bucket and call it "computer audio". One does not need to 'stream' to have computer audio. One does not need to be connected to the internet to have computer audio. One does not have to download to have computer audio.

It does not have to be mysterious or fiddly as some here would have you believe. I like to say, it's not rocket science. But if you enjoy rocket science as some here do, then you'll see a lot of leading edge tweaks and experimentation that can be 'fiddly'. But computer audio doesn't have to be that way.

To lump all 'computer audio' into one big nasty bucket of poo is wrong!

 

RE: Geez - I think a lot of you guys have a total misconception. . . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 13:04:38
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 Not really. Yes once you burn all your CDs to hard drive it is pretty simple. While that may take some time it is not a big deal.

The problem is, unfortunately, you are dealing with a computer and all there attended quirks/problems. Lock-ups, continuous software upgrades, etc. This is frustrating and something you do not have to deal with for any other format. To fully implement computer audio you need to have good knowledge and the desire to fiddle with computers. And fiddle you must do.

I won't even start on the nightmare of downloads. Major league PITA!

Don't get me wrong I made the switch to computer audio years ago and would not go back to the spinning CD. But it does take a higher level of attention, time, hassle factor, etc. versus any other format. And you will always have to fiddle with and massage the thing. Vinyl at its worst is vastly easier to deal with.

Computer audio is still not ready for prime time and given the nature of computers probably never will be. It won't get any better since the masses are more than satisfied with their computer audio: iPod or iPhone, etc. But this is largely a moot point I believe. In the long run there will be two competing formats: vinyl and streaming. The writing is on the wall and the major download companies are preparing for that day.

 

RE: I admit, getting the cover art can be dicey, posted on April 27, 2016 at 13:10:30
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 You may be an Apple bigot but the bottom line if one is going to go the computer audio route an Apple platform is the best way to go. It is far more stable, less fiddly than any PC alternative.

People buy Apple for one primary reason: it works. This quality is critical for computer audio and that simple cannot be said for PC/Microsoft based systems.

Best advise I got when starting down the computer audio path was go Apple you will not regret it. And I have not. Almost 4 years of basically trouble free operation.

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 27, 2016 at 14:23:32
genungo
 And how many people who are into "PC audio" never download or stream? Darn few, I'd bet.

If all I wanted was a ripper and/or a means of compact storage, I'd rather buy a dedicated recorder/player like the Tascam DA-3000. No more expensive than a good *optimized* PC, the $1000 Tascam is "optimized" for the task (although Decware offers a modded version for around $1700) in a way that I find most appealing.

 

You don't have to use a computer for playback, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:12:35
Dave_K
 There are plenty of network audio players on the market that are like any other hi-fi component. Use a network audio player and a NAS, both are purpose built turn-key appliances. Then the only time you involve a regular computer is when ripping.

Some people don't like that solution because it doesn't leave much room for tweaking and optimizing. But I've got a job and little kids to chase around so I love having something that just works and sounds good.

 

The Tascam makes no sense for ripping CDs, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:36:45
Dave_K
 The primary use case for those Tascam recorders is ripping vinyl and tape to digital. It makes no sense to use it to rip CDs.

You would be ripping at real-time speed, so it would take forever.
You would have to manually deal with splitting tracks.
You would have to manually enter all metadata.
You would not benefit from secure ripping.
Transferring the rips off the device via SD/CF cards is inconvenient.

 

RE: You don't have to use a computer for playback, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:40:34
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 Agreed if one only wants to stream. No way to play CD.

 

RE: Fiddling, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:50:33
Dave_K
PC audio is not necessarily what I'd call an "anonymous activity". You simply never know if/when someone is watching, recording your every move. When I play my records or CDs, OTOH, the only ones I have to worry about are my physical neighbors and I have specific ways of dealing with them.


There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about privacy when you are using a computer, principally spyware and ever increasing telemetry.

But of all the things you might do on a computer, playing music has to be at the bottom of the list from a privacy standpoint. Are you really concerned about Microsoft or some hacker finding out what you're playing?

Do you use a computer to do your taxes, access accounts, buy stuff online?

 

Right, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:54:49
Dave_K
 It's hard to know whether I'm comparing the same thing. It's usually obvious if it's a different mastering. But if there were more subtle modifications or some conversion/transfer in the process I wouldn't know. It's possible that watermarking is the reason for some (or maybe even all) of the cases in which I've heard small differences.

 

Of course you can play CD, posted on April 27, 2016 at 15:58:25
Dave_K
 Most of my listening is to CDs I've ripped. I have about 1.5 TB of music on my NAS, about 2/3 of that is ripped from CD. It streams from the NAS to my network audio players.

 

RE: Fiddling.... Vinyl vs. PCs........., posted on April 27, 2016 at 16:50:49
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 The difference between fiddling with a vinyl rig and fiddling with a PC is that with the vinyl rig, it's purely hardware based, and those who have a good handle on physics can truly optimize the setup.

With the PC, on the other hand, it's just try this software, try that software, try this drive, try this processor, try this file, try that file..... And hope the OS updates don't degrade things..... There really isn't that "sense of control" over making tangible improvements and sustaining them.

 

RE: Fiddling, posted on April 27, 2016 at 16:59:59
genungo
 I've resolved to use different storage devices for different things, separating personal files from internet-connected activities of various sorts. Accordingly, I will use one computer strictly for bills and transactions and another one for the other stuff such as web surfing, emails, etc...

I don't care what it is about, I really don't like being "tagged" or spied on (unnecessarily). Those guys will use any and all info they can get their hands on for marketing, advertising, and tracking purposes and I simply don't like giving anyone the the power to do those things.

I rather like the idea of using soundcards rather than drives for music storage - as I might do with the versatile Tascam DA-3000 recorder/player.

 

+1... (nt, posted on April 27, 2016 at 17:01:38
genungo
 .

 

RE: Geez - I think a lot of you guys have a total misconception. . . , posted on April 27, 2016 at 17:03:54
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 Hey, I'm not knocking it... well maybe a little. I have tried all of it and the guys over at the Hi-Rez area were super cool and helpful.

Problem is, that I found it kind of a pain in the ass. FOR ME... the software was clunky, I made a server out of an old laptop and that was a PITA because it felt like I was back in the 80's working with command prompts. Once that was done, I spent a lot of time downloading the CDs onto the server... all of which is really enjoyable if you are a computer hobbyist like I used to be...but am no more.

All I want is a component that fits in my rack and either downloads from the net or ingests from a drive and then I can scroll through a list and hit "play" if I want to do some critical listening or set it to random and forget about it if I just want background music.

I've seen something like that from Pioneer (Elite N-50), but I haven't tried it yet. Once there's something like that that is both user friendly and high quality, I'll be back on board and I'll stop bitching. :)

But please don't think I was trying to poo-poo your hobby or anything! I listen to records for crying out loud. That's fiddly as well, but in a way that I enjoy.

 

RE: makes no sense for ripping CDs, posted on April 27, 2016 at 17:13:25
genungo
 Yes - I would probably use the Tascam mostly for ripping vinyl. Less so for CDs.

Even so, I can fit almost 6 hours of double-DSD up-sampled music on a single soundcard if I want to, enabling better sound and a much more compact storage system.

 

OPPO. , posted on April 27, 2016 at 17:30:18
LWR
Audiophile

Posts: 66808
Location: The woods
Joined: August 12, 2003
 plug in a HD loaded with FLAC and you have it all, plus streaming services if you wish.

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 27, 2016 at 18:23:06
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I think you're a little confused. I never 'stream'. And I'm connected to the internet ONLY if I'm downloading a hi-res album, and then I disconnect. 90% of my content was ripped from CD myself, some from vinyl.

One of the huge benefits of computer audio is the ability to intuitively and rapidly navigate your entire music library and choose albums, artists or songs for instant playback.... either at the computer, or remotely with a tablet like an iPad. Sure there's some up front effort in ripping the CDs but you do it once then you're done. I ripped my favorites first and then the others.

Of course if your library consists of just a couple CDs or records that you play over and over, this may not be viewed as important. But for those of us with hundreds or thousands of albums it's fantastic.

Try that with a Tascam.

Instant access to my entire music library w/o the clutter of CDs or LPs. Local access at the computer, or remote
control with the iPad at my side. And excellent sonics to boot.





 

RE: Of course you can play CD, posted on April 27, 2016 at 18:28:41
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 Sounds like a nice way to do things. But I will not be buying a server, network player, etc., since my main focus is vinyl. I have a computer so I figured why not use it for audio.

Computer audio works great....most of the time. When it doesn't then you get in to the typical computer issues.

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 27, 2016 at 19:33:52
genungo
 If I ever do use the Tascam, I doubt that I'll ever feel as if I have serious access issues. Heck, I don't feel as if I have any "serious access issues" when perusing the rackfuls of CDs and LPs presently employed in the here and now. In any event, a few small boxes full of small soundcards and a corresponding catalog of some type would not be my idea of a seriously inconvenienced lifestyle.

Out of the thousands of LPs and hundreds of CDs that I own, I would probably convert no more than 1000 of the best and/or "faves" to upsampled soundcards for use with the Tascam. Each soundcard holds almost six hours of hi-rez conversions. More than enough music, and more than convenient enough for me.

I don't know how some of you guys do what you say you do, but I only have so much time to listen to music every day. I'm pretty sure that having even 1000 albums on soundcard would use up more listening time than is ever going to be available to me.

YMMV, of course...

 

Well. . . I certainly don't want to argue with anything you've said [nt] ;-), posted on April 27, 2016 at 20:01:36
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

Wow - you've had a very different experience from what I've had. That's all I can say. [nt], posted on April 27, 2016 at 20:09:17
Chris from Lafayette
Audiophile

Posts: 26432
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: February 17, 2004
Contributor
  Since: February 6, 2012

 

RE: 'never download', posted on April 27, 2016 at 20:27:41
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 OK, maybe TWICE!

Stream?

ALL THE TIME.

TIDAL, QOBUZ and ClassicsOnlineHD.

Have about 1000 CDs but have only ripped 6-8 so far. Too lazy. Dealing with downloaded artwork, etc. on a remotely controlled Mac Mini IS a pain but everything else is EASY.




First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 27, 2016 at 20:48:00
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 "Heck, I don't feel as if I have any "serious access issues" when perusing the rackfuls of CDs and LPs presently employed in the here and now."

Maybe others feel differently and hence the proliferation of "computer audio". Having everything available at your fingertips for instant access w/o even getting out of one's listening chair to swap a disc or LP is pretty sweet. Browsing album art, track titles, lyrics, and even artist bios right in front of you on an iPad/tablet screen by your side in the listening chair is also very convenient. All of that with sonic performance on par with CDs or better makes for a pretty compelling story. In my specific case, I wouldn't have room for all my CDs and LPs in my office listening room, but they all fit on my "computer audio" system.

If spinning CDs is still your thing, nothing wrong with that but others have moved on.

"In any event, a few small boxes full of small soundcards and a corresponding catalog of some type would not be my idea of a seriously inconvenienced lifestyle. "

I believe you're talking about storing your tunes on SD or CF memory cards. Dave_K already explained many of the disadvantages of going down that path. One that he didn't mention is that SD/CF cards were never meant for reliable long term data storage. They were meant as temporary storage to be used as a transfer medium. SD/CF memory cards are LESS reliable than disk drives or solid-state disks.

Of course you can make duplicate backups of your box full of SD/CF cards and keep them all in another box. But why go through the risk and bother when a single disk (in a computer or elsewhere) will house your ENTIRE music library? Of course you would still make a backup or two but that's nothing compared to making a handful of backups of your handful of not-so-reliable primary SD/CF soundcards. Not a path worth pursuing IMHO.

"I don't know how some of you guys do what you say you do, but I only have so much time to listen to music every day."

We have MORE TIME to listen to music because we're not spending a good chunk of it looking for that album or tune in the CD/LP rack, or in a box full of soundcards. ;-)



 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 27, 2016 at 23:50:09
Rodney Gold
Audiophile

Posts: 1615
Location: Cape Town South Africa
Joined: September 24, 1999
 At the beginningof the puter music age I directly compared my RIP's to a transport playing a cd (ml 31.5) and there was no audible difference.. sold the transport

I have also compared my Rips to Tidal using instant A/B switching and there is no difference.
I have a pretty revealing system that would highlight any differences.
I have a lossless path

I *have* noticed one or 2 albums I played (Roon/Tidal) are not in lossless format , there is a little dot in Roon that turns orange if the stream from tidal is not cd quality

Rodney Gold Cape Town

Roon/tidal>SBT>DIRAC{minidSP DDRC22) Twin Devialet D'Premiers- Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits , dedicated and fully treated room

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 28, 2016 at 03:12:12
genungo
 Yeah well, now you've figured out know why I said "IF' I go down the Tascam route. I really don't mind spinning discs and I actually kinda like physical media.

As to the durability of memory cards, I'm told that top quality compact flash (CF) memory cards should last a long time, perhaps longer than I'd care to worry about.

As long as I have the physical space to store most of my records and CDs in house, it's highly possible that I'll never bother with the hassles of ripping things down for the sake of miniaturization and a few extra iotas of resolution.

I do find the idea of being able to convert some of my own standard rez recordings into higher rez ones via a contraption such as the Tascam to be an intriguing idea. To me, it beats having to buy similar hi-rez conversions from someone else.

But do I really NEED another toy in my sandbox? I don't know, I really don't know...

I also have to face the fact that not only am I sort of cheap, I'm also sort of lazy. I would like nothing better than to get on with life with a minimum of fuss and bother, and realizing this splendid ideal might require the changing of little... or even nothing at all.

 

RE: nasty bucket of poo, posted on April 28, 2016 at 05:43:02
TubeDriver
Audiophile

Posts: 794
Location: East Coast
Joined: February 16, 2007
 I have about ~75-1000 cds ripped but with Tidal I have 25 million+ CD quality albums with bios and links to similar artists etc. To be honest, I would choise to have Tidal with only 256mp3 vs 1000 Cds ripped. My musical tastes and experience have been greatly expanded by streaming services. I still have about 1000 records (50% jazz, 50 rock) for when I want the fully immersion of playing music and for when I want what I consider the ultimate musical experience.

 

Help me out here, Dave., posted on April 28, 2016 at 06:26:14
Todd A.
 I had just been over at the big box store looking at a so-called "cloud drive" and asking this specific question, and was told the opposite. So if I get a cloud drive, I wouldn't have to have my Macbook on at all, and would therefore not have to deal with this Twonky stuff, is that correct?

 

Going to be lower and lower, posted on April 28, 2016 at 09:28:01
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Anything contingent on ISP bandwidth is going to suck more and more as the ruling class continues to extract and exploit....



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Help me out here, Dave., posted on April 28, 2016 at 10:08:33
Dave_K
 Most NAS have a built-in DLNA server. I assume by "cloud drive" you mean a WD My Cloud. According to WD, the My Cloud comes with Twonky server. So you would not need to use your computer as a DLNA server any longer.

I see in your system profile that you have a Cambridge Stream Magic. Which control point app are you using with it?

 

RE: OPPO. , posted on April 28, 2016 at 10:22:57
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 Sounds like a plan!

 

RE: Help me out here, Dave., posted on April 28, 2016 at 11:11:45
Todd A.
 Thanks. I recently updated the iPhone app to CA Connect, if that's what you mean.

I just edited my main system, BTW. I no longer own most of that equipment, although I do still have the Cambridge and the Denon.

 

Since I'm an IT guy, posted on April 28, 2016 at 13:57:43
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 I already had a capable quad core i7 Win7 box that I use for many tasks. I find that LMS software is stable and requires little in the way of resources. I already had a network infrastructure with three access points as I work at home. So I need to reboot the server every couple of days. No biggie. I do use iOS devices, however, as both players and remotes to other players!

I don't fall into the "tweak-the-crap-out-of-the-OS" category you find with dedicated setups. In fact, all I did with LMS is carefully configure it for a minimum of add-ons and gave it medium CPU priority. It serves the Touch player in the main system via ethernet (runs up built-in bookshelves in the office to attic and into listening room).

Vinyl is nice, but having all your digital music instantly available across multiple kinds of players around the house is addictive. LMS also serves movies to a Roku2. Its really cool being able to dial up any of your movies for watching, too.

I'm a vinyl guy, too having grown up in that environment and have two tables - one purchased new in '76. Having said that, I just purchased an HRT ADC and plan to rip some of my vinyl to 96/24 for more convenience. :)

 

We'll lose 'porn' long before TIDAL quality is endangered..., posted on April 28, 2016 at 15:04:28
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Most porn is HD now, or so I am told by those in the know, and if you live in a 'red' state where it's a staple, there's a fair amount of panic going on as the ISPs clamp down.

As for TIDAL, cache is the issue and some of the 'appliances' used for streaming either don't have enough or leave the user with no way to deal with start/stop ISP intermittent streaming.

While some computer software provided by the streaming services (QOBUZ) let you set large cache, or in the case of TIDAL, commandeer enough by default to load a whole track and start a second before the first is played through.

SONOS, at least for me, does not and when my internet service is slow (everyone else in the neighborhood is streaming porn in HD) I get drop-outs. :-(






First they came for the dumb-asses
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a dumb-ass

 

RE: Help me out here, Dave., posted on April 28, 2016 at 15:11:57
Dave_K
 I wasn't sure if you were Android or iOS. If you have an Android device, you might give BubbleUPnP a try. It's my favorite control point on Android, and it provides a way to stream Tidal to devices that don't natively support it.

 

RE: TIDAL and quality, posted on April 28, 2016 at 22:35:44
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009









Don't need no Chrome. Don't need no browser at all. Just the Tidal Player app. and appropriate settings in the Mac MIDI and Tidal apps. I've compared the same music from Tidal to my cd version and I don't hear any great difference. The cd version might be a little cleaner sounding but both are very musical. I can listen all day without fatigue.

 

RE: Since I'm an IT guy, posted on April 29, 2016 at 04:06:19
kentaja
Manufacturer

Posts: 4614
Joined: March 26, 2001
 I was most likely being too dramatic about the problems associated with computer audio.

In general my Apple platform is quite stable. Rarely do I have issues. Perhaps once a year I have to update my DAC software. Other minor maintenance issues are required as well. iTunes likes to lock a bit more often than I like but a restart solves the problem.

Having said that I still do believe it is all just a bit too tweaky down loading hi-rez files in particular. No thanks. For some this will of no issue others will feel otherwise. Similar to vinyl in some respect. If one has never played with vinyl before I can see how that might be intimidating. I grew up with it so it does not seem to be a challenge for me.

I have found those that have the highest comfort factor with computer audio have a desire or a greater than average knowledge of computers. I personally don't care to mess with computers the reason I went with Apple.

Don't see ever ripping the vinyl collection to the computer. That is much too tedious a task CDs are no big deal to rip to the computer. It would be more convenient in some situations but I can always use Tidal.

 

RE: Since I'm an IT guy, posted on April 29, 2016 at 07:01:03
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37584
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 Having said that I still do believe it is all just a bit too tweaky down loading hi-rez files in particular.

I must be blessed. Just downloaded an album from HDTracks. After checkout, clicked "Launch download manager" and after three minutes, files were on my server. Moved them to appropriate folder and had LMS rescan library to find it. Ran Ponomusic and added new folder.

It would be more convenient in some situations but I can always use Tidal.

I thinking of albums unavailable on digital - or at least with the same quality. The first will be my 45 RPM 12" singles. :)

 

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