"Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . .

Shopping Alibaba?., posted on June 25, 2015 at 08:10:05
JeffH Audiophile Posts: 4574 Location: Orange County, So Cal Joined: April 5, 2000	Sorry, couldn't resist. I assume you mean mass market clones? If someone is willing to steal a design why would you trust them for quality? Correct me if I'm reading you the wrong way.

RE: Shopping Alibaba?., posted on June 25, 2015 at 09:12:29
Palustris Audiophile Posts: 2408 Location: Cape Cod Joined: September 12, 2008	That "question" could be answered many ways because it has no point of reference. Perhaps the OP will indulge us with an example.

It depends., posted on June 25, 2015 at 10:25:13

Larry I
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It really depends on what is being "cloned" and how that is being done. Clone implies an exact copy, but that is rarely the case. A number of very high performing and expensive amps, such as Audionote and Western Electric amps, are supposedly "cloned, but that often means that a similar circuit is employed. With these brands, it is hardly the circuit that makes the amps special, it is the parts and the build. Most of the clones don't even attempt to make comparable parts, particularly the output transformers, inductors and capacitors.

I own an amp that is based on the Western Electric 133a design. I suppose it is a "clone," but, a LOT of the parts are carefully selected Western Electric and other vintage parts, the input transformers are decent alternatives to Western Electric transformers (Langevin) and the output transformers are the real deal (Western Electric 171C). The tubes are also genuine Western Electric 348s and 349s.

I recently saw a beautiful linestage that was packed with Western Electric parts. Well, actually Chinese parts made to look very much like genuine Western Electric parts. It was a very costly knock off (it would have been cheap if it were genuine) that was a cruel joke on anyone who bought it.

RE: Shopping Alibaba?., posted on June 25, 2015 at 14:45:48
Caucasian Blackplate Industry Professional Posts: 8313 Location: Seattle Joined: June 18, 2004	There are plenty of well respected commercial designs currently produced that are "stolen" from engineering books from the last century.

I'll add some drama to this..., posted on June 25, 2015 at 15:37:09
David S. Audiophile Posts: 3552 Location: Mountains of WNC Joined: August 31, 2000	On a "solid state" level, take a look at ODL Audio amps versus Odyssey Audio - probably the exact same product, but damned by a company split. Want to go for tubes? "Audio Note" is a quick pathway to confusion.

Only if they use lots of opamps. n/t, posted on June 25, 2015 at 15:52:05
MikeCh Audiophile Posts: 1113 Joined: November 16, 2002	n/t

Abrahamsen VS Electrocompaniet..., posted on June 25, 2015 at 17:04:28

RGA
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When I lived in China I went to a 5 star hotel with other colleagues and we all got food poisoning - you see they look at the picture of what a hamburger is supposed to look like but they don't actually learn how to cook at a proper school and get food safe certificates and because NONE of the restaurants in Whenzhou actually use soap to clean anything then it's a place where a proper bowel movement is as rare as finding the dodo bird. It's pretty sad that the safest thing to drink there is a can of coke and the safest food is at McDonalds. Gaining 25 lbs over the year was bad but the only way to survive.

Abrahamsen was the founder of the company and apparently left to form his own company selling the same looking products for a lot less money. Some feel they actually sound better too. Is that considered a clone? Perhaps not but it's probably better than buying a copy.

Companies that use quality parts and know how to do a proper job testing and reverse engineering could come up with their own products. If they need to copy they have no interest in audio and conversely no interest in you as a customer - they only have interest in taking your money.

http://www.abrahamsenaudio.no/

That is true, posted on June 25, 2015 at 19:17:36
JeffH Audiophile Posts: 4574 Location: Orange County, So Cal Joined: April 5, 2000	I suppose I jumped the gun and assumed that he mean clone of an existing, in production product. My bad.....possibly.

RE: That is true, posted on June 25, 2015 at 19:53:08
Caucasian Blackplate Industry Professional Posts: 8313 Location: Seattle Joined: June 18, 2004	It's a blurry line. I bet you could find a current product that's a copy of an established historical circuit, only to find that there's also a Chinese knockoff (is it really a knockoff at this point?).

i meant current copy of a current design, but interesting points [n.t.a.], posted on June 25, 2015 at 23:22:19
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

I meant it as a generality...., posted on June 25, 2015 at 23:23:49
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	of how clones are perceived generally; reputation in other words in the audiophile world. roger wang

RE: Shopping Alibaba?., posted on June 26, 2015 at 04:28:27
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	Old designs with new parts and meticulous layout sound better than old designs with crappy parts and layout.

RE: I meant it as a generality...., posted on June 26, 2015 at 07:18:17

Lesage
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My concern, as a customer, is that some clone builders (or sellers) claim about the genuine product's reputation to rise their price

Some attempt to dissimulate the fact that it is a clone

RE: Abrahamsen VS Electrocompaniet..., posted on June 26, 2015 at 08:43:26

AbeCollins
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There was an article in an audio mag a few years back that described and showed photos of various Chinese 'fake' high-end components like capacitors, resistors, etc. that find their way into so-called 'high-end' Chinese audio products.

That would be just one of my fears buying Chinese made product direct from a manufacturer in China, or off eBay. If a stable US based company actually oversees component selection of their products made in China and monitors production there, AND they have warranty and service capability state side, I would consider buying.

RE: I'll add some drama to this..., posted on June 26, 2015 at 08:51:04

AbeCollins
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Want to go for tubes? "Audio Note" is a quick pathway to confusion.

LoL !! I thought I was the only one who can't understand their convoluted product line.

Do I reall want to read all of this?

RE: "Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . ., posted on June 26, 2015 at 08:58:11
genungo	Only if they come from a trusted source within your galaxy.

Exactly my thoughts NT..., posted on June 26, 2015 at 09:03:44
lancelot Audiophile Posts: 1722 Joined: March 23, 2001	NT

RE: "Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . ., posted on June 26, 2015 at 10:34:25

Schurkey
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I think that before we can have a reasonable discussion, we need to define some terms, two of which ("Clone" and "copy") you seem to use interchangeably in your original post.

What do you think of the following?

OEM updated design: The original manufacturer continues or resumes production of an older "vintage" product, using updated parts and construction as deemed necessary, but retaining as much of the original design and product "flavor" as practical. All manufacturers update products, often without telling the consumer about them, or changing the model number. The original manufacturer of a product therefore has the strongest claim to "authenticity" when they continue or resume production of an older product, even if the result is judged to be unsatisfactory by reviewers or it's intended market.

Clone: Exact reproduction of an original design, performed by an aftermarket (not-original) manufacturer. Critical parts for the clone will be from the same supplier(s), and the same, or superseded (equivalent) part number(s) as parts from the original, aside from cabinetry. Construction will be identical. The only real difference will be the manufacturer's nameplate. In some cases, minor updates are made to obtain safety (including environmental) certification in the intended market(s). If there is no current supplier of critical original parts, the design cannot be cloned. In a few cases, used parts are obtained and refurbished, but this tends to limit the quantity of Clones that can be made, and may run afoul of regulations relating to advertising the product as "new".

Copy: Less-exact reproduction of an original design. Parts are generic substitutions (including "upgraded" parts of higher-quality than the original) and assembly is somewhat different than the original. *A company should be careful that their product is not so far removed from the original that it isn't really a copy at all, but a new work merely using a similar circuit or cabinetry as the original.*
A product so made could actually be an improvement on the original. In some cases, updates are made to obtain safety (including environmental) certification in the intended market(s).

Knockoff: Poor reproduction of an original design. Parts are generic substitutions which may include low-quality or otherwise inappropriate selections to lower the cost to manufacture. Assembly may be entirely different from the original. The end product superficially resembles the original. There may be an intent to deceive on the part of the manufacturer and retailers.

RE: "Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . ., posted on June 26, 2015 at 16:31:07
briggs Audiophile Posts: 1674 Location: Connecticut Joined: April 16, 2002	I find these carefully thought-out and useful definitions. Nice job!

As long as ... , posted on June 27, 2015 at 00:12:40
three_sox	... An American company would never ever pass something off for something else.... Or rip consumers off blind. Nope, never happen.

RE: Abrahamsen VS Electrocompaniet..., posted on June 27, 2015 at 02:17:18

RGA
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Your complaint is valid except that numerous Western companies have been doing the same things over the years. The only difference is when you buy the Chinese knockoff you are paying knockoff prices - when the Americans do it they bend you over. (Ahem like buying $399 laser disc players adding $25 worth of parts and charging $5k). Indeed, even when Ming Da uses the knock-off so long as the knock-off actually works properly you pay your $699 for a tube amp and you kind of have to know you're not getting the best parts. So they silk screen Rudycon on top of some mainstream cap - but it's probably fine.

Indeed the product has a better than average chance at being at last "safe" because unlike the west, when a company sells products that are deadly there is real punishment. The western company that sells deadly products - nothing happens - court battles for years - appeals - and then some sort of fine - which is usually a pittance. In China - they find you guilty and take the CEO around back shoot him in the head and bill the family. So if I get electrocuted because some putz President of the Chinese amp maker deliberately cheaps out and sells dangerous goods - I will at least have the pre-satisfaction to know that he'll be shot. In the US - nothing. Zero zilch nada - they get a fine and will make the fine back by not paying their oversees slave labour force for a couple of weeks.

I never liked the idea of corporations being called people - you can shoot people, you can lock a person up and seize all their assets when they do wrong.

RE: "Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . .yes, posted on June 27, 2015 at 03:39:51
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

i was actually thinking of sellers that call their amps "clone" ...., posted on June 27, 2015 at 03:40:55
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	so there is no hiding in the fact. roger wang

RE: I meant it as a generality....good point [n.t.a.], posted on June 27, 2015 at 06:15:42
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

RE: As long as ... , posted on June 27, 2015 at 09:32:59
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 46295 Location: USA Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	My point is that it is more likely to happen with Chinese made goods with little chance of recourse and remedy to the buyer.

RE: Abrahamsen VS Electrocompaniet..., posted on June 27, 2015 at 09:34:22

AbeCollins
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I'm not too concerned for the owner's of the companies.

My concern is for getting genuine components if the product is advertised as having certain brands of high-end parts.

And more importantly, being able to get the thing serviced in a timely manner if it breaks. In other words, the product needs to have good representation in the states with a strong network of dealers who can step up.

The plight of Raysonic owners keeps coming to mind, and they were at least thought be reputable.

RE: Abrahamsen VS Electrocompaniet..., posted on June 27, 2015 at 17:53:51

RGA
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This is a very good point. I'd also factor in resale value. Sure the price may be lower BUT if when you go to sell it you get far less money than the more expensive "known" commodity then you don't come out ahead.

I generally prefer to deal with dealers who have on site repair facilities and know how to fix the stuff they sell. I just bought a turntable (posted on vinyl asylum) and the dealer accidentally forgot to put the transit screw in (bought a static display model) and being a suspended chassis it came loose. The guy came out 2 days later to my place - took the entire turntable apart - put the screws back in to attach the chassis - refitted the arm board and adjusted the arm and cartridge all in less than 15 minutes.

The dealer in BC (Soundshounds) can fix any brands including restoration of old ESLs. I mean if the dealer can't fix anything why not just buy the things over the internet? Part of the reason to pay dealer mark-up is for "dealer service" and that service to me is not just let me listen to something and take the credit card - it is the ability to repair the stuff or at the very least handle the repair work in some manner and deal with the manufacturers.

If Soundshounds sold Raysonic (which were smart enough not to) they would be able to repair any problem that came up so customers would not be S.O.L.

Line Magnetic in the US is imported by the Shindo and LeBan importer "Tone Imports" so it's probably a much safer buy in that respect. John DeVore is also confident enough in them to use the amps to demonstrate his gear at Audio Shows.

You are probably correct ... , posted on June 27, 2015 at 18:58:32

three_sox

... Though you did mention eBay.

On this site there seems to be a lot of Americans whinging and bitching about other Americans when buying goods off eBay & Audigon etc... not to mention the perpetual bitching about eBay itself and PayPal!

I seem to remember Lexicon putting a Oppo into a box and adding something like $3k extra for the nice box.

As you have stated elsewhere there are American companies you would not buy from. I assume you came to your opinion through a little research and experience. It is not really hard to apply the same methodology when dealing with Manufacturers from other countries. Of course it helps if one doesn't already have a fixed opinion/belief about the said country.

I find it a bit ironic when many American companies trade on the their brand name but their product is either made in China or full of Chinese made components. But that is just me.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Cheers.

thanks to all for all concerned [n.t.a.], posted on June 28, 2015 at 07:32:48
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

RE: Shopping Alibaba?., posted on June 28, 2015 at 22:46:07
Caucasian Blackplate Industry Professional Posts: 8313 Location: Seattle Joined: June 18, 2004	Older designs laid out and build by the designer of the original circuit may sure sound a lot better than someone in another country rehashing a design that they may not completely understand. A good way to mask that is to sprinkle in some fancy parts...

RE: It depends./ thanks for story [n.t.a.], posted on June 29, 2015 at 11:16:01
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	.

General Asylum

"Clone" amplifiers - can they be trusted? . . .

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