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Total disconnect between price and quality

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Posted on April 14, 2015 at 11:34:32
ruxtonvet
Audiophile

Posts: 527
Location: maryland
Joined: September 25, 2004
 Jeff Rowland Design Group: Continuum S2 Integrated Amplifier is a class D amp-preamp combo that sells for $10,000. See TAS this month for review. Why would somebody pay that much for a class D amplifier? It is encouraging to read and maybe hear that class D can be made to sound acceptable but what is the point if the price is the same as class A-B or A? I guess it is lighter and the manufacturer can make more money if they can convince people to buy it at that price. Sad comment on the state of audio economics today. It does have a beautiful case. It you package it right they will buy bologna?

 

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I buy the sound of a component; not concerned if it is class A....., posted on April 14, 2015 at 11:57:32
viridian
 ...or class Z. As Rodney Dangerfield said to Sally Kellerman in Back To School, "Call me some time when you have no class."

 

Have you heard it? (nt), posted on April 14, 2015 at 12:01:14
Jack G
Audiophile

Posts: 9740
Joined: September 24, 1999
 .

 

How do you know..., posted on April 14, 2015 at 12:42:06
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...the price and quality are disconnected?

This one is even more expensive.

 

RE: How do you know..., posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:08:23
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 I heard the devialet 400/400 combo, it is truly a good unit, best for 18K ? better than class-A , i dont know, we never did a shoot out with anything else, but it is definitely worthy of the praises being thrown around , very well built and awesome flexibility and features....


If it works why should it matter what topology...?


Regards..

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:31:34
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Jeff Rowland does class -D better than any competitor.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:35:31
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 I currently own class D Rowland M501 mono amps with the PC-1 rectifier/conditoner units. I previously owned Plinius, Threshold and McIntosh amplifiers among others. I do not sense I am missing anything except excessive heat and higher electric bills. The absolute standard is how it sounds not why it sounds.

 

It's a digital world, posted on April 14, 2015 at 13:53:48
jedrider
Audiophile

Posts: 15168
Location: No. California
Joined: December 26, 2003
 I'm hoping Class-D bridges the gap between Class A/B and TUBES!

If I wanted an amp to run hot, I would just go with tubes to begin with.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 17:44:02
Beau
Audiophile

Posts: 39
Location: Brooklyn
Joined: June 6, 2007
 I would assume they would buy it first, because it's better than any other $10K integrated or separates they have managed to audition and possibly because they lie the way it looks it their listening room second.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 17:56:08
standingstones
Audiophile

Posts: 218
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 14, 2005
 I thought one of the selling points of Class D was that it would be lower in price. There wouldn't be a need for heavy, expensive transformers etc. I guess that isn't the case.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 19:09:37
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Seems like standard fanfare, the prices that is ....

http://www.stereophile.com/content/theta-digital-prometheus-monoblock-power-amplifier

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 21:27:33
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 By quality I assume you mean performance.

I suspect you're fairly ignorant of Class D amp's potential performance. Perhaps you should try auditioning a few. Like Class A, A/B, etc, Class D amp performance can be all over the board performance-wise. But the potential is certainly there with some and the actual is certainly there with some others.

Two things to bear in mind with Class D in general.

1) Some Class D amps have the potential to be more revealing than other amp types. Since a more revealing product does not discriminate between that which it reveals, with potentially more music being revealed so too is more distortion being revealed. Hence, Class D amps best chance at higher levels of musicality occur when the owner has taken extra steps to minimize distortions elsewhere in the system.

For example, for a while I owned the Nuforce amps and even sold them out of the house to fund my R&D project. Anybody who auditioned the nuforce amps without proper line conditioning in place thought the amps were too dry harsh, overly bright, and fatiguing and most returned them. But those who employed proper line conditioning fell in love with their superior levels of musicality. I remember installing a new pair of nuforce amps at a friend's house who also had about $4000 of active PS Audio line conditioners for his source and amp components. The amps were not burned in but we're listening to them for about 20 minutes and I just couldn't take it any more so I asked if we could listen without the PS Audio line conditioners. He removed the PS audio LC's and we both noticed an immediate improvement. I ran home and brought back my vastly superior Foundation Research line conditioners and needless to say he purchased 3 Foundation Research line conditioners. Most line conditioners are not worth owning but I digress.

2) Because they are usually so much lighter in weight, Class D amps are generally more susceptible to air-borne and internally-generated vibrations. A feather is more easily excited by vibrations than a block of concrete. Hence, mass loading the Class D amps and securing them to their shelves can go a long way performance-wise.

As for Rowland's Class D amp at $10k, well Rowland products usually are performance-oriented and Rowland also dives into the bling bling side of things. As a result of that combo, his potential customer base is usually geared toward those with a few extra dollars in their pocket who like a little bling bling to go with whatever performance they think they're getting. Nothing wrong with that.

As for your comment about being encouraged to hear that Class D amps can be made to sound acceptable, you give yourself away that you haven't a clue what a superior Class D amp is capable of performance-wise.

In 2006, my pride and joy was a 100 lbs. McCormack DNA-2 Rev A amp custom rebuilt by McCormack. A distributor friend in Canada who was quite familiar with my amp, said he was sending me a pair of amps to try that weighed only 7 lbs. each. I would have said no immediately but because of his knowledge and experience, I reluctantly said I would audition them. When they arrived in a small single box I thought what a joke. But after install, they were clearly more refined, more musical, and even more dynamic though they were only 160wpc compared to the DNA-2 Rev A's 300 wpc and my speakers were 86db efficiency and I often listened at that time around 96 - 104 db. Within 1 week the DNA-2 was up for sale.

More recently, I replaced my highly rated BMC C1 int. amp retailing for $8k with an ugly-duckling pair of Wyred-4-Souncd SX-1000 Class D mono blocks retailing for $2400 a pair. Significant musical improvement. Moreover, since I dabble with extreme forms of vibration control, I did something externally the W4S amps that so greatly improved the W4S' performance, the BMC C1 amp sounded more like a $50 receiver from BestBuy in comparison. And the BMC amp was clearly superior to my previous Nuforce amps.

I see no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.





 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 21:54:57
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46307
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Interesting that you love your Wyred SX-1000 monoblocks. I sold my SX-500 monoblocks after owning them for just a few months. Though somewhat improved over another pair of ICEpower amps I had, they were not quite "there" compared to some quality Class AB SS amps I've owned or even a couple modest tube amps.

My issue is mostly with the bass. Yup, that's right, an area where we would expect Class D to shine since so many subwoofers use Class D technology.

ICEpower bass is present and strong but a little ill defined IMHO, not very detailed, unable to clearly separate the deepest bass notes (think upright bass as an example). Even my tube amps have done better in this regard. Go figure.

It is encouraging to read and maybe hear that class D can be made to sound acceptable but what is the point if the price is the same as class A-B or A?

The OP makes an excellent point above. I've been saying the same thing for a while now.... and I've gone through several Class D amps over the years. Still waiting.


 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 22:35:31
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46307
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Class D should be lower in price when you consider that the cost of entry into this market involves very little R&D investment by the amp makers.

Many buy 'off the shelf' modules like ICEpower from Bang & Olufsen or UCD and Ncore modules from Hypex. Sure, some might add a linear power supply of their own design or claim to have 'collaborated with' the module maker but the bottom line is this, it's damned easy to stuff an OEM Class D module into a pretty box (or not so pretty in some cases) and charge stratospheric golden ear audiophile prices for 'their' creation.

IMHO, some low cost Class D amps can be good values, especially in DIY projects. When we see $8000 to $12,000 Class D amps I scratch my head and ask why? As in why bother when there are so many excellent Class A/AB products out there that have stood the test of time.

IMHO Class D was meant to be cheap.... but we can count on audiophile brands to create laughable marketing spin and jack the prices to stratospheric levels. I'm not buying it.


 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 14, 2015 at 23:43:15
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 Hi, Abe.

In my case, the bass of the W4S SX-1000 amps is easily superior to the BMC's which handled matters quite sufficiently.

And in the case of my 160 wpc nuforce amps, they easily excelled over the powerful McCormack DNA-2 Rev A amp at 300wpc which was by no means a slouch in that region. In fact, in that room and with those full-range 86db inefficient speakers, I had the the most musical, well-defined, tight, and tuneful bass I've ever encountered.

In my current room, sized like a shoebox, in the past 7 years I've never been able to quite replicate that but I've come close.

IME, an extremely well-defined, tight, and musical bass, which is perhaps near impossible to achieve, has as much do to with superior cabling and speaker placement, as it does with superior amplification.

In fact, if I were given mediocre cables, amps, and speaker placement, and my only goal was obtain superior bass reproduction and I could only select an improvement from 1 of those 3 categories, hands down I would choose improved speaker placement.

At the moment, with some fabulously musical new (older) VMPS RM40 speakers I acquired last summer, the bass is as good as I could hope for, except not quite as deep as my previous speakers.

In fact, tonight for the first time since install I just tried moving the the speakers to see if I could gain 4 or 5Hz in the 22-26Hz range. I might have gained 1Hz but essentially no-go. So now I'll be spending the next 9 months off and on trying out some new placement locations to see if I can dial in these 240 lbs. monoliths for max range.

ICEPower is the generic board and technology coming from B&O and each mtg'er has the opportunity to build around it as they see fit. In other words, I wouldn't necessarily condemn all ICEPower technology for their bass reproduction simply because one mtg'er's execution didn't suit your fancy.

Same thing with assuming that since Class D amps are used in subwoofers, therefore, you should expect similar bass response from your speakers with Class D.

First many subwoofers aren't worth owning. Period. Second, proper cabling and placement matter as much or more to subwoofers as they do to full-range speakers. Moreover, I have to assume there's plenty of inferior, no-name, or cheap Class D amps used for subwoofer applications.

IOW, I think many subwoofers performance is so highly questionable, the last thing I'd want to do is assume other Class D amps should be able to make my speakers perform likewise. :)

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 15, 2015 at 01:08:51
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Abe

I'm not sure where or how class-D got their rep for bass, i have never heard one that excelled in the bass dept, the Devialet are the only ones i have ever heard that had no nasties in the top, but it did not drive like a good A/AB in the bass and it is by far the best i have ever heard from the genre.

regards..

 

RE: Integrated Amp for bedroom System, posted on April 15, 2015 at 03:39:39
fstein
Audiophile

Posts: 2997
Location: fstein
Joined: May 18, 2006
 My TACT 2150 (?) blew away the bass on my zillion watt Roger Saunders designed Innerforce amp

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 15, 2015 at 04:12:07
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Thanks! for sharing- Abe.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 15, 2015 at 06:34:53
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Maybe, what would you estimate the build cost to be on a JR 10K monobloc...




regards

 

RE: Integrated Amp for bedroom System, posted on April 15, 2015 at 07:36:36
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46307
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 I found NuForce to have excellent bass but lacked in other areas. At least NuForce designs their own Class D amps and doesn't rely on OEM modules. I haven't been that pleased with the Hypex and ICEpower based amps that I have owned.

Class D designs are often used in subwoofers where bass is the goal so it surprised me a bit that I wasn't thrilled with the bass from most of my Class D amps.



 

RE: It is about implementation!, posted on April 15, 2015 at 08:04:00
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 Many manufacturers of DAC's use off the shelf chips. Yet all these DAC's sound different.

 

RE: It is about implementation!, posted on April 15, 2015 at 08:19:55
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46307
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Good point, and most of those DACs sound excellent. I haven't found that to be the case with Class D amps. But that's just my limited experience with Class D in the $2000 - $3000 range. I'm not willing to spend big bucks on Class D when there are proven (to me) better choices in traditional designs.


 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 15, 2015 at 08:21:30
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "My issue is mostly with the bass. Yup, that's right, an area where we would expect Class D to shine since so many subwoofers use Class D technology."

I'd suspect problems in the reconstruction filter, especially inductor saturation or capacitor heating. Sub-woofers are likely much more forgiving of time-domain smearing than a full-range implementation.

Regards, Rick

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on April 15, 2015 at 08:24:03
Dave_K
IMHO Class D was meant to be cheap....


Class D was meant to be efficient.

I think it takes more engineering expertise and effort to design a Class D circuit than a Class A/AB circuit, which is why the Class D market is dominanted by a handful of OEMs who supply modules and chips to everyone else. I don't know enough to say whether power supply design is any more or less critical to Class D performance, but I don't see any reason to assume that it's less critical. Similarly, it's not obvious that part selection is any less critical or that part cost should be cheaper. It would be interesting to compare the parts cost for the amplifier section of a $10k Class A or AB amp with the cost of one of the better Class D modules. Thermal design is more challenging for Class A than AB than D, which drives Class D to be cheaper at high power levels. But at low to moderate power levels, if anything I would expect Class D to be more expensive than Class A/AB for equivalent performance.

It seems like you're presuming that most of the cost of an audio amplifier is in the amplification circuit, and therefore Class D should be cheaper due to the availability of OEM amplification modules. To me that's like saying all DACs should be cheap because they all use off the shelf DAC chips.

 

Perhaps the cost of improvement?, posted on April 15, 2015 at 10:22:42
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 For Jeff Rowland anyway.

Years ago witnessed an audio shop trying a JR Concerto, think it was called, Class-D integrated anyway ... trying to get it to sound good. They were at the end of their rope, burn-in, different source and speaker combination, different cables tried. Asked me to listen and I thought it was broken.

So maybe the big name learned a thing or two since then ... nice to have a dedicated name following that will do the funding for the top $ bumbling/fumbling I guess.



 

Not surprising, posted on April 15, 2015 at 19:29:51
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 I agree with your post, but since when has any green technology stood on its own economic merit? I don't know if others consider class D amplification to be "green" (I don't pay much attention to class D so I'm not an expert) but I believe this is what's driving it currently.

 

Nice try but, posted on April 15, 2015 at 19:38:30
TheBrewmaster
Audiophile

Posts: 365
Location: Southern U.S.
Joined: January 20, 2013
 Abe is right. It's profit driven, as most new technologies are and should be. Not trying to build a better mousetrap, but to find a way to build the mousetrap cheaper than the competition. Follow the money...

 

RE: cheap home brew chip amp driving modded esl57's, posted on April 16, 2015 at 03:15:23
digda_beat
Audiophile

Posts: 1724
Location: Canberra
Joined: July 31, 2003
 heard this set up a while back, fabulous! The guy had built the amp to test gear with, and couldn't believe how good it sounded (he has bulit his own transformers for the esls)

 

Want cheap? Get a chip amp/gainclone., posted on April 16, 2015 at 05:29:45
Dave_K
 Class D is not price competitive with power op-amps e.g. LM3875, or even discrete Class AB circuits at moderate power levels. Nor was it meant to be. Class D is all about efficiency.

That efficiency translates to cost savings at high power levels, where Class AB amps necessarily get large.

 

RE: Want cheap? Get a chip amp/gainclone., posted on April 16, 2015 at 08:43:39
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Well we have 10K to play with , cost savings ....?

 

I agree...it's getting abusive. Use Google Images and weight, posted on April 18, 2015 at 12:03:08
Kevin Deal
Dealer

Posts: 369
Joined: May 29, 2000
 There are a couple areas where people need to be aware. One is preamps. $4500, little printed circuit board, one or two tubes, transformer is a little C core, not a toroid, chip for a volume control, cheap cheap cheap remote, and bad engineering to boot.

People need to ignore the BS. Look at real things that are tangible. I see descriptions saying preamps have "Tubes running in Class A with DC filaments" as if that's a "feature". Every tube preamp has that.

Use Google Images to look inside and see what's under the hood. Weight absolutely has a direct relation to how much a product should be priced at. Everything looks good fro the outside. Stick to tangible facts.

They are killing the goose that laid the golden egg. It's really maddening to me. This is the way it should be: Look at the top of the line products from 1985, and take a count of the parts they use, the number of tubes, assembly techniques (point to point or PCB) and weight. Adjust for inflation. If you do that with a few brands it's eye opening.

I think that companies charge as much as they can without slowing sales too much. Prices are really arbitrary in many ways. Not all, but many. You need to amortize engineering hours, and the cost for metalwork. Those are the two largest costs.

 

RE: I agree...it's getting abusive. Use Google Images and weight, posted on June 11, 2015 at 21:21:46
Bill Bond
Audiophile

Posts: 45
Location: Los Angeles
Joined: June 7, 2015
 I have a good friend who owns a Rowland model 9. It is a superb amp and I doubt it could easily be bettered today. If you look at what the new Model 825 and 925 brings to the table, I suspect you can justify the price.
Jeff Rowland amps seem to be heirloom pieces...looking at the quality of construction and the sound, it is pretty easy to see why.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on June 12, 2015 at 07:54:32
coli
 d

 

RE: I agree...it's getting abusive. Use Google Images and weight, posted on June 12, 2015 at 08:39:21
BillH
Audiophile

Posts: 3913
Location: Baton Rouge
Joined: December 23, 1999
 "They are killing the goose that laid the golden egg."

Wise words from an experienced and astute observer. When I raised this question in another way in a similar post, I got flamed for wondering where this is all going.

Now I will answer my own question:

The high end of the audio business is eating itself, focusing on bling and marginalia instead of delivering products that will involve more people in the pursuit of reproducing the musical experience.

All of it is heavily lubed with snake oil, making the hobby even more inaccessible to those who really don't care about vibration frequency or the fact that the silver wire in your transformer windings is interleaved with silk thread produced by moths imported from Brazil. This is done by some high-end manufacturers in a lame attempt to justify why their product costs as much as a new Range Rover.

It's nuts, and it will end badly.

 

RE: Total disconnect between price and quality, posted on June 12, 2015 at 10:03:00
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 stehno-

where does Primare gear stand?

 

RE: An Aside for Mr. stehno:, posted on June 12, 2015 at 11:57:04
mcbuddah
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: June 8, 2012
 This thread is showing sides of life again and I just read your views on the topic. My system is similar to yours in design, but shares no components. I have been running a pair of D-Sonic 600w amps for more than two years as a retirement-budget experiment to replace a pair of Atma-sphere 100w OTLs that I had bought 20 years earlier. Like you, clean, solid, extended bass is a priority. I ran Snell B-types from 1992 until this Spring when I bought a used pair of Genesis 6.1 towers that have about the same footprint as yours, but they weigh about 100# less. These speakers set off a major system upgrade project that involved swapping the locations for the 2-channel and HT systems. My wife got her pound of flesh with all new carpet, paint, furniture, etc. but I got the long wall, a few new cables, some old tubes, and a new Steve Blinn Super-Wide rack. With so many changes, I expect it will take me at least a year to get the speakers setup properly. So far, I have imaging and soundstaging at a level I would call hypnotic, and have set my focus on the bass side of things.

You are probably wondering what this has to do with your post and will he ever get to the point. Your comment about dialing in your monstrous speakers rings my bell because that is exactly what my problem is with mine. I now have my Genesis towers fitted with Soundocity outriggers with brass cones that are adjustable in height using a knurled knob above each point. The speakers came with no provision for footer - not even threaded holes. The only surface feature on the otherwise flat bottoms is a rectangular 1" wide picture frame 1" inside the edges. The outriggers make a dangerously unbalanced tall speaker almost rock-solid through the carpet, but making location adjustments required dancing the now-spiked speakers while balancing on on 1 point ... you probably know the drill. I even broke one of the points doing off. Improvements in bass was so pronounced with the outriggers that I had to keep them - at least until I found something better. But, they made for a true nightmare for moving the speakers in the hunt for better sound.

While researching speaker/room/setup topics, I ended up at Herbie's on-line store and found a very good solution: Fat Gliders. These are a 3-layer laminated puck about 2" diameter. The bottom is convex-curved and makes it function as a glider like people put under heavy furniture to move it while vacuuming. The center layer is Herbie's proprietary acoustic material and is hollowed out in the top-center to allow the fitting of a coupling disc that has been drilled deep enough to allow the point of a cone. They actually work as both gliders and improve the bass clarity and extension mare than just cones. I can now make even tiny changes to location easily and in seconds.

If you are concerned that your much heavier speakers, that's the reason I mentioned my new rack. I ordered another set of the gliders before building the rack. I wanted to place the rack at least 15" from the wall behind it to allow access to everything because I know that I will be doing a lot of experimenting with footers, cables, etc. but eventually want to move it out of the middle of the room. I decided to test how much weight they could take by trying to move the rack on gliders several times as I added more components and platforms. The empty rack weighs 220# and could be pushed around the room as easily as pushing a shopping cart at the grocery. The rack moved easily and smoothly until I had more than five hundred pounds, but I now needed to move it in steps, one end then the other with a bit of lift applied to the end support. Fully loaded, the rack tops out at about 625#. At this weight, the gliders are still useful for making small incremental movement, but I will certainly unload at least a hundred pounds before traveling more than a couple of inches.

You are spot-on about cabling and set-up being the key to getting the best out of class d amps. My D-Sonics are very revealing of everything else in the chain. Mine are completely at home in a system where the speakers they drive originally cost 5x as much and the phono side (including cables, platforms, footers and a phono stage) was 12x.


Everything is going to the dogs

 

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