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Cables Asylum

70.117.111.203
Posted on January 19, 2015 at 17:36:38
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 Are really assholes - deleted a post on Kimber snake oil speaker jumpers at $336 - I guess they get upset with the truth - they can stick the $15k power cord up theirs! Imagine the "air" they'll get!

 

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    ...
Yes, I deleted your post..., posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:32:52
Rod M
Web Geek

Posts: 16245
Location: So. California
Joined: March 1, 1999
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Did you read the forum Mission Statement?

While I may \agree or not, I wonder why you posted that post. Let's just get along. Don't go to Cables if you don't think cables matter. Now, $50K per meter seems insane to me, I suspect that it's just insane to nearly everyone. Right, Bullethead?


-Rod

 

No, posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:35:11
bullethead
 it is perfectly sane. With more means I wouldn't think twice. Just sayin!

 

Don't go there - it's that simple., posted on January 19, 2015 at 19:50:43
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Oh, and BTW - it's you who appeared to be an asshole, posting that "snake oil" nonsense about something you never tried.

I mean, if "snake oil" is something you can't appreciate the benefits of, can't wrap your head around, and can't afford to buy - then by all means, you are correct.

 

RE: Don't go there - it's that simple., posted on January 19, 2015 at 20:26:56
bullethead
 sometimes it is too much to deal with. Wonder why that is. You sounded a little harsh until I re read your post. Cool. At least it is moderated. Saved a lot of people getting pissed off.

 

Listen... we're both here for a really long time. Why would someone pick on $399, or whatever it was, jumpers?, posted on January 19, 2015 at 20:33:58
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 I can give about 100 examples, far more ridiculous, right off the top of my head - but I won't.

It's called experience - EVERYTHING matters, and it's up to one particular individual to determine for himself whether it's worth it. Speaking of experience - "snake oil" proclamations are always borne either out of inexperience, or just of pure idiocy.

 

The immediate presence of felt experience, posted on January 19, 2015 at 20:37:13
bullethead
 like McKenna would say. I agree. You just to have to understand.

 

Actually....... , posted on January 19, 2015 at 21:03:41
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 While I absolutely love the emotional feel of your two descriptions motivating the snake-oilers' proclamations, my experience with the snake oil crowd is usually they cannot afford whatever it is they are whining about that day. They have no altruism behind their snide comments and ridicule. It is pure selfishness and jealousy.

I very strongly suspect that deep inside they are quite insecure and likely fear they are missing out, so they attack that which they cannot have, attempting to smear and malign it and render it off-putting to others, who join in the chorus of criticisms and ridicule, and thereby create a resonance of rejection by which to convince themselves collectively as well.

This kind of ego-saving activity is so old and common, that even Aesop wrote about it more than two millennia ago. The story is entitled, The Fox and the Grapes, and gave rise to the immortal idea of a 'sour grapes' attitude. Even Wikipedia's simple summary of the tale shows how absolutely spot-on it is in describing the attitude of the dreaded nay-saying 'snake oilers':

"Driven by hunger, a fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to, although he leaped with all his strength. As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet! I don't need any sour grapes.' People who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain would do well to apply this story to themselves."

Yes, indeed.

Cheers,

WS

 

LOL! :-) (Nt.), posted on January 19, 2015 at 21:04:55
Winston Smith
Audiophile

Posts: 1014
Location: PNW (summers) and Southern AZ (winters)
Joined: December 2, 2006
 .

 

RE: That's the area where this hobby borderlines with supernatural..., posted on January 19, 2015 at 21:13:22
Eldragon
and turns into extremism....Enter at you own risk.

 

RE: Actually....... , posted on January 19, 2015 at 21:57:22
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I agree with what you are saying here but that doesn't apply to those who can afford it and genuinely feel that people are being duped by glorified used car salesmen. People blow themselves up to kill people in the name of a religion that is completely fictitious without even the remotest scintilla of a shred of evidence - but they are sure because they feel it in their hearts and minds that it is "the truth."

We've all grown up with a kind of marketed brainwashing under a barrage of advertising of this cologne is better than that - this hand bag is better than the one without the logo, this watch is superior, this amp costs $3k so it is better than the one at $2k and we have not even gotten to cars where some, phones, computers etc.


Personally I have heard cables sound different but what I will say is that it's largely a crap shoot as to whether they will be superior. And what I find is that it always seems that if X is more expensive than Y and it comes from the right label it will be viewed as sounding better than Y - always. And that to me smacks of a bias leading the audition.

In a typical mixed and matched stereo system say:

Turntable
CD Transport
DAC
Preamplifier
Amplifier
Loudspeakers

It is quite possible that the above stereo will have internal cables that are different. 6 different cables internally.

Guy goes out and buys interconnects and cables - perhaps they're all the same cable which would be consistent and somewhat logical but it;s possible that they get the ICs from ABC and the speaker cables from XYZ.

So we're up to 7 cables from source to speaker voice coil. Which does not even begin to mention the wiring used in the actual microphones and mixer boards to record the albums (which will be different from recording to recording).

So you have a CD player using $0.05 wire to a DAC using maybe decent silver wiring - out through a $500 Silver IC, to a preamp using dumpy $0.05 copper to a $300 well reviewed copper IC to an amp using a different $0.05 wire to $2000 meter Nordost uber uber wires to a speaker using $1 a foot copper to a voice coil using $0.01 wire.

And then someone will say that $2000 Nordost speaker cable is much better than the $800 XYZ - cable - as some absolute fact that will carry into all systems no matter what. Or that there is a staggering night and day difference - well if there were staggering night and day differences then someone would be able to tell them apart in a level matched blind audition - and they can't. My issue isn't with the improvements (which I have heard) it's with the hyperbole that such a thing is an across the board improvement. It reminds me of people who come to the door and and say "Hi - have you heard the voice of God" and I say no - then they look at me as if I'm a pitiable fool while they have all the answers. Umm - personally I think people who hear voices in their head should be sent to an institution rather than being elected to office but that's me.

Objectivists should bother to actually try the cables - most outfits give 30 day money back guarantees so what's the harm. That said a subjectivist should not just chuck out all their critical faculties to try and join the "me too" crowd of "See I have XYZ cable that cost $1,000 so now I can be viewed as a "Real Audiophile."" Perhaps they should put their cables in level matched blind sessions just to see for themselves if belief and perception about a thing is fooling them. Where is the harm in the experiment?

 

Its weird experiencing jerks and fanatics on the other end too. Ive been to other audio sites and... , posted on January 19, 2015 at 23:20:51
2chJunkie
Audiophile

Posts: 1057
Joined: March 2, 2002
 After getting into active xover, amping, pro gear and speakers. I went on my usual over indulgence in my hobby. Bought allot of different gear and discovered new paths. This led me to other websites like harmony central, pro sound web and gear slutz. I gotta tell you, its different but allot of the same too.

In those places much of audio voodoo like $1k+ cables, crazy forms of power conditioning, zany tweaks and crazy priced gear with little justification... All that stuff is not nearly focused on or held in high praise. BUT, careful what you wish for. You find the other end of the spectrum where allot of the facts, science and physics are held to high standards. So much so that its often easy to find yourself in a whole new realm where now your beyond comprehension of whats really important yet again.

Reading about the needs and desires of a mastering lab is just as fanciful to (remotely normal :) needs of a enthusiastic home audio hobbyist.

Really Ive found it all to be more comical and entertaining now. The extremes and craziness of all these pursuits. Nothing to get worked up about in general anymore for me.

But yes I do see that sadly the whole home audio scene produces allot of abrasive and unfriendly folks. Not everyone. Plenty of examples of good and bad here. Heck Ive been both at times myself as many do. But I think allot of us, for whatever reason, are wound too tight often.

Brush it off and dont bother trying to convince anyone of anything. And dont take what folks say to the heart. Not worth it on either account.


 

I'm sorry, I must have missed that memo., posted on January 20, 2015 at 03:45:05
Justlisten2
Audiophile

Posts: 1266
Location: SE PA
Joined: March 8, 2001
 Exactly when did you become King of the internet?

 

double blind doesn't matter it is the belief, posted on January 20, 2015 at 05:05:25
bullethead
 It is the belief and the quest to get that cable in a system. I'd heard amazing differences in cable, but you're right, one would have to design every single component with lets say silver wires, including all connections within the speaker, everywhere in every component and throughout the chain to hear a difference.

I myself use silver wire throughout, including very expensive Nordost silver speaker cable, the bottleneck is really the house electric wiring, then out to the telephone poles and the poor quality old wire which goes to a nuclear power plant which in itself can cause various impurities in the chain. One would need a self contained free energy device powering ones system from the ether into a pure silver interconnection of all components to hear what is truly possible in that case.

I haven't listened to gold wire, nor do I see it available on the market, it would be something I would like to try.

 

RE: Actually....... , posted on January 20, 2015 at 06:30:25
Inmate51
 Aesop was a fabled writer, and that story is no exception to his fantasies.

In my entire life, I've never seen a grapevine so tall that even an out-of-shape fox couldn't get to the top of, whether by jumping or climbing. In any case, I doubt that any fox would care about reaching for grapes at the top of a vine, when there are so many rabbits and rodents within easy reach on the ground.

That must have been one stupid fox. Kinda flies in the face of "you sly fox" and "crazy like a fox". Maybe we should come up with a new saying, like "dumb as a fox".

;)

 

Did you refuse to pay for the pair you were sent as required audio paraphenalia?, posted on January 20, 2015 at 08:01:22
Nuit
 I could see a complaint if you had been sent a pair and were told you 'had to pay for them, or your stereo would be confiscated. But since you did not have get any, nor have to pay.. WTF do you care?
The same rant as yours can apply to:
women
Wine
Cars
Homes
clothing
watches
anything with an upscale portion of the market.

So basically if you are too poor.. Why get all excited about the price?
Accept that to SOME people, the $336 something cost is like a penny is to you. Not much to worry about.
Where if $336 is you total monthly income, I guess it seems like a lot.

 

Excellent comment. Thank you. nt, posted on January 20, 2015 at 08:03:59
Nuit
 .

 

RE: Actually....... , posted on January 20, 2015 at 08:41:10
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "And what I find is that it always seems that if X is more expensive than Y and it comes from the right label it will be viewed as sounding better than Y - always. And that to me smacks of a bias leading the audition."

That's become the very definition of "high-end audio". While I believe that logically "high-end" should refer to performance, alas it just means expensive. Rather like perfume, wine, jewelry... Veblan goods.

Fortunately we have great lattitude to do better by any number of routes. That being the case it always seems odd to me that audiophiles are so cost obsessed.

Rick

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 08:55:59
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 After looking at your system, rings the attitude, "My tweaks are OK, but your tweaks are snake oil." .............

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:17:10
davem1
Audiophile

Posts: 275
Location: Washington, DC Metro
Joined: July 16, 2012
 Let's see. You made a post:
-inconsistent with the rules of a forum and it got deleted;
-that was snarky and pejorative about something you read about but apparently didn't try.

So you now post this stuff on another forum. For what purpose?
(Yes; it's a rhetorical question, just as your post is rhetorical).

 

Just avoid the Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:18:41
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 They're kinda like yellowjackets: Constantly buzzing around amongst themselves but attack anyone who ventures within their specified domain that disturbs their way of life. They are best left alone.

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:39:21
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13975
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 There's an old saying: If you don't believe it, you won't see it. Change
"see" to "hear" and you've got the Cable Asylum and its denizens.

Personally, I can hear some difference in cables. I attribute the
differences to quality of the copper, quality of construction of the
cable itself, and quality of the connectors. I think there are strict
limits to how much "improvement" is possible from a cable. And, I think
that double blind testing is desirable to see if the listener can
consistently pick one cable as "sounding better" than the another one.
YMMV of course ... and it assuredly will ...



Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

"They are best left alone"..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:44:16
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...Agree with that but.....they seem to be expanding into places like this. You're not permitted dissent over there and they're ganging up on the dissenters here. Is there no refuge for the dissenter? What a great hobby this is!

 

sounds like you need better cables!, posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:47:01
bullethead
 haha!

 

If the bored applies the rules evenly, outside of that forum you can say they are FOS legally., posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:47:49
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 Of course, that assumes the mods play by the same rules they expect others to live by.

 

I don't need no stinkin' cables...I got a Bose wave CD (nt), posted on January 20, 2015 at 09:51:58
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001

 

If you want to argue about cables, feel free to do so here., posted on January 20, 2015 at 10:34:47
The Bored
Bored Member

Posts: 2996
Joined: July 28, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 If you want to spew profanities, go find another site at which to play.

Fax mentis incendium gloria cultum, et cetera, et cetera...
Memo bis punitor delicatum! It's all there, black and white,
clear as crystal! Blah, blah, and so on and so forth ...

 

Interesting definition of equality, to say the least., posted on January 20, 2015 at 11:02:26
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Do "they" - people who appreciate differences between cables - go to Amp/Pre subforum, and post "all amps are snake oil" proclamations there?

Or may be they go to music forum, and post something like "classical sucks, and those who listen to it are FOS"?

No?

What's the problem, then?

 

RE: Yes, I deleted your post..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 11:05:26
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 But you let the comment on the $14.5K power cord stand - how disingenuous!

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 12:02:02
alan m. kafton
Manufacturer

Posts: 5285
Joined: April 7, 2000
 Over 25 years in this hobby, I've successfully used a variety of jumper cables (some silver-plated copper, some stranded copper, some solid copper) on bi-wireable speakers, with all of them outperforming the plated brass jumpers supplied with the speakers. In some cases a set of jumpers outperformed a shotgunned set of dedicated speaker cables, providing even more bass "heft" and solidity.

Regardless of all my experience, you must know something I don't.

 

RE: double blind doesn't matter it is the belief, posted on January 20, 2015 at 12:36:12
uncle mag
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: sf bay area
Joined: June 29, 2004
 Reactors for all, I always say.

Those liquid cables noted below look pretty cool.

 

WAH!, posted on January 20, 2015 at 12:54:25
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Another "I've never tried it but it must suck" loser. Your lack of real data is the bottom line. Your "feelings" are worthless.


E
T

ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Hey, iyworks. If they wish to make asholes of themselves, they are free to,, posted on January 20, 2015 at 14:02:08
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 they should just be prepared for pushback.

They have their own personal "no discouraging words" zone in their own personal asylum and it's respected. If they wanna be asholes in the other forums, then grow a set and deal with it.

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 14:34:32
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 A few of us posted like you in the original thread in Cable showing we had experience where jumpers made a difference, in my case a big one.

People of his ilk do not want to hear that. He saw something in a catalog, has never used it or anything like it and just wants to judge w/o data. These people are among the worst here and provide nothing to anyone.


E
T


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

nuclear powered cars and houses I say, posted on January 20, 2015 at 14:44:01
bullethead
 why not?

 

If you want to offer your thoughts, posted on January 20, 2015 at 14:53:37
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 as a non-experiential theorist, then play nicely.



 

RE: nuclear powered cars and houses I say, posted on January 20, 2015 at 15:21:29
uncle mag
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: sf bay area
Joined: June 29, 2004
 Flying nuclear cars, it's about time, it's the 21st century

 

RE: Yes, I deleted your post..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 15:58:15
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Rod-

let's not turn this into Audiogon.

 

RE: WAH!, posted on January 20, 2015 at 20:03:43
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 I get it now - I just need barbed wire - wire from the pole thru every place there is wire - and the barb to protect me from the econocrystal crowd - I heard tin foil hats work well too!

 

"I heard tin foil hats work well too!"... nope..., posted on January 20, 2015 at 21:18:59
musetap
Audiophile

Posts: 31879
Location: San Francisco
Joined: July 8, 2003
Contributor
  Since: January 28, 2004
 you're still here.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

I think this is a false flag operation just to get more participants at Cable Asylum, posted on January 20, 2015 at 21:34:42
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 Surely we're all familiar with false flag operations, right?

 

Go save someone else, posted on January 20, 2015 at 21:48:27
Jon Risch
Bored Member

Posts: 6659
Joined: April 4, 2000
Contributor
  Since: March 1, 1999
 Folks at the Cable Asylum just want to be able to discuss cables and cable tweaks without every other objectivist objectionist trying to save all those mid-guided folks from themselves and from the other cable "nuts".

Why is it that most folks will allow that amps, preamps, disc players, DAC's and most any audio device can sound different, despite virtually identical specs or measurements, yet cables MUST all sound the same?

The would be saviors really don't want to save, they just end up denigrating folks who have gotten past the ideological hump of the realization that EVERYTHING in an audio system makes a difference.

Are $15,000 power cords or speaker cables crazy? Sure, so is a $500,000 car, or (in my opinion) a $10,000 golf club. But when folks discuss the latter two, there is never the animosity we see with high performance/high end audio gear, just the oft expressed wish that they could afford such a luxury.

Bottom line is that until you have actually tried swapping out some high performance cables with an open and honest ear, you are just whistling in the dark.

Moderator Cable Asylum,
Jon Risch

 

RE: Cables Asylum, posted on January 21, 2015 at 04:12:32
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 I concur- we MUST be very cautious w/ cenorship in these forums...

 

Maybe because the car actually does something?, posted on January 21, 2015 at 06:38:40
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 Any reasonable person would agree that there are all sorts of audio chicanery and charlatans in the high end praying on fools with more money and/or insecurity than common sense.

Rather than just blindly pronouncing that "EVERYTHING" makes a difference, it would be far less disingenuous if you were to qualify that by noting that not EVERY difference is audible, or that many "differences" are subjective and based more on a variety of biases rather than actual differences.

To each his own. I do find it odd that people can bash class d in the amps forum but can't even question the most ridiculous claims on cables...

 

RE: Go save someone else, posted on January 21, 2015 at 07:15:29
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
 "Bottom line is that until you have actually tried swapping out some high performance cables with an open and honest ear, you are just whistling in the dark."

-You sound a lot like Drlowmu.

"The would be saviors really don't want to save, they just end up denigrating folks who have gotten past the ideological hump of the realization that EVERYTHING in an audio system makes a difference."

-Please, cables don't make enough difference to warrant all this nonsensical babbling, let alone a dedicated forum.

"Why is it that most folks will allow that amps, preamps, disc players, DAC's and most any audio device can sound different, despite virtually identical specs or measurements, yet cables MUST all sound the same?"

-These are way more complex. What "specs" are you referring too? there are way more ways to measure devices.
It's like saying two cars go a 100mph so they must be the same in every aspect.

"Are $15,000 power cords or speaker cables crazy? Sure, so is a $500,000 car, or (in my opinion) a $10,000 golf club. But when folks discuss the latter two, there is never the animosity we see with high performance/high end audio gear, just the oft expressed wish that they could afford such a luxury. "

-Hmm, I wonder what kind of cables a $500,000 car has? I bet you would pay for a $500,000 Geo Metro if it was painted gold with rhodium hubcaps.

"Folks at the Cable Asylum just want to be able to discuss cables and cable tweaks without every other objectivist objectionist trying to save all those mid-guided folks from themselves and from the other cable "nuts"."

-Folks in the General Asylum just want to be able to discuss cable stooges without having delusionalists trying to save all these misguided folks from themselves and other general "nuts".
△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

"Surely we're all familiar with false flag operations, right?"..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 08:41:56
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...absolutely! Back before the GD days, many of us were mentored by
barry b.

 

"bash class D in the amps forum" - perhaps....., posted on January 21, 2015 at 10:08:09
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 ... if you let up a little on shoving them down everyone's throat, they would be less eager to bash?

 

I discovered Cardas Parsec made a big jump in performance over my old 'performance' cables, posted on January 21, 2015 at 10:45:59
Nuit
 So I splurged for a full set. Still use a Kimber Hero for the long run from pre to amp. but the Cardas Parsec was easy to hear as better than the prior cables.
If YOU can't hear shit, don't blame everyone else who CAN. LOL

 

+1. For the life of mine, I wouldn't understand why someone...., posted on January 21, 2015 at 10:59:48
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 ... with a certain deficiency - in this case inability to hear something, for various reasons - wouldn't work on mitigating that deficiency.

Put together a decent system (yes, that ACTUALLY requires spending some money), pay a visit to an otolaryngologist, learn to listen (the skill these people lack entirely). But no - instead, they will pollute web forums with their "cables don't make any difference" nonsensical garbage.

From the post you responded to:

Please, cables don't make enough difference to warrant all this nonsensical babbling, let alone a dedicated forum.

Sure - if, borrowing from Colin Farrell's character in the movie "In Bruges", one "grew up on a farm AND is retarded".

 

Nothing in common with sales-driven Audiogon forums - but much greater danger is...., posted on January 21, 2015 at 11:09:27
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 ... turning this place into another Hydrogen Audio.

Do you really want to see another place, fully dedicated to the non-stop orgies of cheap deaf morons?

 

RE: +1. For the life of mine, I wouldn't understand why someone...., posted on January 21, 2015 at 11:24:25
Garg0yle
Audiophile

Posts: 859
Joined: December 1, 2014
Consider it a blessing that wiring is not that hard to get right.
The differences are so minor and system dependent the only thing you can really compare is how it looks and the price.

If connectors are really that big of an issue then why not bypass the connectors?

Where is the resistor and capacitor forum? At least you could somewhat quantify differences between them.

May as well have a screw forum where one could discuss how a loose screw sounds.

How about a sticker forum?...
Imagine the endless audiophile upgrades one could apply with nothing more then a bubble jet printer.

△This message will self destruct in 10 seconds△

 

RE: Go save someone else, posted on January 21, 2015 at 11:58:23
daleda
Audiophile

Posts: 741
Joined: March 6, 2002
 OK point taken - I do like some of your designs on IC's - I'll stay out of your playpen and will not cause anymore trouble. Man, did I get stung by all those yellow jackets mentioned above!

 

Loose (vs tight) screws HAVE been discussed in DIY/Tweaks. (yes they make a difference) nt, posted on January 21, 2015 at 12:19:22
Nuit
 .

 

"shoving them down everyone's throat"....LOL, yeah, right....nt, posted on January 21, 2015 at 14:09:29
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 nt

 

The problems with folks ranting on about DBT and all calbes sound the same rants, posted on January 21, 2015 at 16:38:18
Nuit
 In any cable discussion it is desirable to exclude allowing that in a cable area. Since the naysayers just never know when to quit.
They are on a MISSION, and they think they have to spread the word..
Since they really believe the drivel they spout, they think they are 'saving' people from folly..
Where in fact they are just insane maniacs.
Anyone who has been around other sites can know exactly what I mean.

 

Have you considered the case where you take what you wrote..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 18:40:54
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...and replace "naysayer" with "believer" (or whatever the "cables REALLY matter" person calls themself)? Comes off exactly the same as what you accuse the "naysayer" of so closed mindedly doing.

 

I'm not sure if you noticed the slight difference:, posted on January 21, 2015 at 19:00:04
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Those whom you call "believers" - which by the way, is grossly misapplied term, since it has nothing to do with "believing" - speak from their personal experience.

On the other hand, those whom your opponent calls "naysayers" - and myself, not being so restrained, usually calls "cheap deaf morons" - speak purely from lack of said experience. That, and also from the fact that one of the following is true:

- their systems are not resolving enough to allow them to hear any differences;
- their hearing is not good enough, and their listening skills are undeveloped;
- their brain is pre-conditioned to not allow for any differences to be perceived, even if their hearing system is fine.

Of course, in majority of cases, it's ALL of the above.

 

"Believe" is most definitely an appropriate term..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 21:47:13
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...as in those who believe they hear or experience the difference. Human perception of subtle sensory inputs is biased and inconsistent and therefore unreliable. So "belief" is very much a factor in perception. But that's a discussion for another thread.

You go on to state:
"On the other hand, those whom your opponent calls "naysayers" - and myself, not being so restrained, usually calls "cheap deaf morons" - speak purely from lack of said experience." That's a pretty broad generalization and doesn't come close to explaining the divergent opinions out there. A few of my audio acquaintances have well thought out, nicely resolving systems where above a relatively modest cable quality, they simply don't make a difference...to their ears or mine. IOW, lots of cable experience and they're in the "minor difference" camp. BTW, I don't consider something as trivial as this a "win/lose" situation so no "opponents" here.

"- their systems are not resolving enough to allow them to hear any differences"
While certainly a possibility, I've experienced enough examples to the contrary to consider this a confounding factor.

"- their hearing is not good enough, and their listening skills are undeveloped"
Again, another possibility and again enough contrary examples that this too is probably another confounding factor.

- "their brain is pre-conditioned to not allow for any differences to be perceived, even if their hearing system is fine"
Ah, yes, perceptual bias. This could be the the big one. And I'd bet a large sum of $$ that it works both ways. IOW, is it possible for the brain of the "believer" to be pre-conditioned to perceive differences where none exist? Absolutely! At the margins, it's well documented that humans percieve things that don't exist, fail to perceive things that do seem to exist and find patterns in pure randomness. It's how were built.

The bottom line for me is that the cable "believers" ought to be a bit less dismissive of the cable "naysayers". Considering the relatively simple job cables have to do compared to the rest of the audio chain, they ought to be a minor factor. If they're not, something is really wrong with them and/or the components they tie together.

 

RE: "Believe" is most definitely an appropriate term..., posted on January 21, 2015 at 22:39:27
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "they [cables] ought to be a minor factor. If they're not, something is really wrong with them and/or the components they tie together."

Very well put! I couldn't agree more. The interfaces that we seem to largely be stuck with are historical artifacts that are piles of (poorly specified) crap from an engineering perspective. And they face equipment ports that are also.

Audiophiles just seem to have a near infinite tolerance for this sort of thing. Guess it adds a touch of mystery and magic to our hobby. Actually it might be a significant reason that it IS still a hobby.

But it's my hobby and I love it. No accounting for taste...

Rick

 

RE: "Believe" is most definitely an appropriate term..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 04:44:50
geoffkait
 What I have found is that by reducing the number of wires and cables in the system the sound can be improved considerably. My small portable system has no power cords, no (big) speaker cables, no Interconnects, no digital cable, no ground wires, no internal wiring, no fuses. Does this mean that all cables are inherently bad?....well, uh, maybe.

 

RE: "Believe" is most definitely an appropriate term..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 06:54:53
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "What I have found is that by reducing the number of wires and cables in the system the sound can be improved considerably. My small portable system has no power cords, no (big) speaker cables, no Interconnects, no digital cable, no ground wires, no internal wiring, no fuses."

Does it, by any chance, have a crank on the side? You have just described a music box...

"Does this mean that all cables are inherently bad?....well, uh, maybe."

Can't argue with that! Of course they are. But EVERYTHING is a compromise with good and bad traits. Except for coffee.

Rick

 

You've got a Bose Wave CD too? Cool! (nt), posted on January 22, 2015 at 08:23:49
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001

 

Ever think of applying some reason to your comments?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 09:43:19
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 The 21st century is actually here, now.

The only important knowledge here is experience: those who have it, have a (relative) consensus. Outside reason, you're drowning, almost alone, ignorant.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Perhaps you should consult a dictionary? -t, posted on January 22, 2015 at 09:44:16
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Would you believe I have a Bose Walkman CD Player? Would you believe it sounds good? I'm not hot doggin ya., posted on January 22, 2015 at 10:14:29
geoffkait
 Nt

 

Perhaps I did..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 10:56:48
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 Belief:
1.An acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
2. Something one accepts as true or real

Synonyms: opinion, view, conviction...

Here the "something" is audible differences in audio band cables etc.

Perhaps we use different dialects of english. Or perhaps you're thinking of the religious aspect of the word. Or perhaps you're a "cable guy" and don't care for the subjectiveness and uncertainty implied by the usage of the word. Or perhaps you just don't care for the opinion I expressed. Or perhaps...who knows.

 

Scientific, observational testing is not belief, posted on January 22, 2015 at 11:29:50
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 The evidence is pretty clear to those with experience.

A belief is an opinion held outside experience: in this case, experience is the most significant form of knowledge.

Objectively, the differences in different cables are beyond obvious & are not worth discussing. There is no way that a Nordost Valhalla cable is the same as a River cable: even though both are relatively flat.

People with experience have (relative) consensus. A naysayer is a believer, who doesn't test for themselves, uncreatively remaining inexperienced and therefore ignorant. They become a "naysaying believer" when they assert knowledge that they do not possess.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Same tired arguments..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 12:55:20
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...you state: People with experience have (relative) concensus. [that cables make a significant audible difference]. That statement ignores the people with experience that arrive at the opposite concensus. You seem to be implying that the only valid experience is the "positive" one. Why should this be so?

You also state "Objectively, the differences in different cables are beyond obvious & are not worth discussing. There is no way that a Nordost Valhalla cable is the same as a River cable: even though both are relatively flat." So the objective differences aren't obvious and aren't worth discussing and yet there MUST be differences between the cables in your example. Why must this be so?

I think cables make a difference in your world because you want them to....not that there's anything wrong with that.

Overall, pretty unconvincing.

 

"Same tired arguments"? Does that mean that you consider yours exploring some new terrains? , posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:06:25
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 Sorry to disappoint, but it doesn't seem that way.

I mean, in a nutshell - you don't hear it, and support others who don't.

That's fine with me.

 

RE: I'm not sure if you noticed the slight difference:, posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:10:26
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Or it could just be that some of us recognize that there are subtle audible and measurable differences, but think that cables are pretty awkward tone controls!

OK, now I've stuck my foot in it. :-)

 

Hey, you can believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and that's fine but..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:26:10
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 ... if you want to convince the more discerning masses that they're real, well, that's gonna take a bit more than a few people clustered together saying so. Just because they are touted in advertisements for marketing purposes doesn't make them any more real, either.

 

Convince? "Discerning masses" (that's hilarious, BTW)? No intention whatsoever. N/T, posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:32:53
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 N/T

 

trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something., posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:36:35
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 FAITH

""ignores the people with experience that arrive at the opposite concensus""

No, - it doesn't IGNORE, - it places them in the proper context, - as true, - as small minority. We can't ignore them, as like many people with "faith" they shout louder in their insecurity and lack of knowledge.

""objective differences aren't obvious and aren't worth discussing""

You mis-quoted me, (why not cut and paste).
OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCES ARE OBVIOUS, and mostly irrelevant.

""Why must this be so?"

????? are you trying to assert that the Nordost Valhalla is the same as the other mentioned? Really? Should I post pictures?


""Overall, pretty unconvincing.""

Only if you're completely outside reason, and foolish







"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Ahh... "cables as tone controls" argument., posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:38:57
carcass93
Audiophile

Posts: 7181
Location: NJ
Joined: September 20, 2006
 A sure sign that person is not necessarily aware what he is talking about.

Can you name a true tone control, which expands the soundstage width and height?

How about a tone control that makes treble sound softer, but at the same time more extended?

 

Perhaps "skeptical" would have been more appropriate?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 13:45:57
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 Hey, a little scientific proof would go a long way to wipe the smirk off their faces.

 

Observational application of the scientific method, posted on January 22, 2015 at 15:32:02
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 is what is going on, and it absolutely is not magic.

Calling it "belief" is simply wrong.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something., posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:11:18
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 You wrote: """objective differences aren't obvious and aren't worth discussing""

You mis-quoted me, (why not cut and paste).
OBJECTIVE DIFFERENCES ARE OBVIOUS, and mostly irrelevant"

Not a misquote because they're not your words, they're mine. You wrote "Objectively, the differences in different cables are beyond obvious & are not worth discussing." What you quoted of me above is a misinterpretation on my part of your original statement...as in "quantum physics is beyond the comprehension of most laymen". The word "plainly" or similar might have been a better choice.
>
>
>
You wrote: "????? are you trying to assert that the Nordost Valhalla is the same as the other mentioned? Really? Should I post pictures?"

No, I'm not asserting Nordost Valhalla is the same as a River cable. I'm asking why they MUST be sonically different. Assuming the function of a cable is to get an electrical signal representing music from here to there with as little change as possible, good, well designed cables ought to sound the same even if they employ radically different designs. That you think I need to see a pic of them to understand the differences causes me to wonder if what you hear is influenced by what you see.
>
>
>
You wrote: """ignores the people with experience that arrive at the opposite concensus""

No, - it doesn't IGNORE, - it places them in the proper context, - as true, - as small minority. We can't ignore them, as like many people with "faith" they shout louder in their insecurity and lack of knowledge."

How do you arrive at the conclusion "they" are a small minority?
What makes you believe they're insecure and unknowledgeable? Neither of those statements ring true from my experience. Seems like your attempting to bolster your position by diminishing anything that doesn't support it.
>
>
>
You wrote: """Overall, pretty unconvincing.""

Only if you're completely outside reason, and foolish."

No, not at all. You've presented opinion as fact and little that really supports your position other than opinion. Your argument remains unconvincing and the arrogant , condescending tone of this statement doesn't help your case because there's a desperate quality about it.

Later!

 

RE: Observational application of the scientific method, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:20:07
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 "Observational application of the scientific method". You're using this phrase a lot. Got any credible references where it's been used in the context of the audibility of cables? A brief search turned up nothing.

 

Face it, that's just your way of saying it's an opinion that cannot be proven scientifically?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:34:47
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 What's that river in Egypt again???

 

No, it's your minority viewpoint of denigrating scientific discovery, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:41:36
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 It comes with a lack of understanding of scientific inquiry.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Listen to a system in context with several different cables in place: easy -t, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:43:32
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

So, you'r esaying it's a proven fact?, posted on January 22, 2015 at 16:54:35
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 Prove it. If you can't, then it's just an opinion shared by a relative few. Remember Elvis sightings?

 

Does that answer my question?..., posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:31:47
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...Unsurprisingly, no.

 

RE: trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something., posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:38:39
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 ""I'm asking why they MUST be sonically different.""

They may not be sonically that much different, - especially if used out of context: like with a Sharp boombox. I never asserted anything about whether they are different or not sonically.

""That you think I need to see a pic of them to understand the differences causes me to wonder if what you hear is influenced by what you see."

You've wasted that sentence, - as mentioned, - not sonic.

""How do you arrive at the conclusion "they" are a small minority?""

Because people who've heard many cables do not assert that position.

""Neither of those statements ring true from my experience"

Would you care to enumerate your experience(s)? Please be specific.

""What makes you believe they're insecure and unknowledgeable?""

When queried, and asked for specifics, we (almost always) find that they haven't done much of any experimentation on their own: and/or applied tests out of context, = performed bad tests, - that set up obvious straw men.

""You've presented opinion as fact""

No, I have not. The only "facts" I've presented are that (outside sonics), there are some very real, physical, [objective] differences in various cables. And, - that when most everyone who conducts good scientific investigations through decent controls, in the proper context, - assert that different cables affect the sonic character of the system.

""Your argument remains unconvincing""
I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, I am not making any universal claims. I am convinced by the evidence that I have, for myself.
My claim is my claim. OTOH, I do gain a measure of confidence by having people with the same, and more, experiences corroborate those.

"and the arrogant"
Me asserting what I hear, and repeating the claims of others?
I don't think so...

IT IS FAR MORE ARROGANT for people to make the untested, inexperienced, and baseless claim that I did not hear a difference.
IT IS FAR MORE ARROGANT for someone to say that they are GOD and claim that I am lying for asserting that I heard something: especially if they were not there, and/or have any experience with my system(s) in my home. Or, - attended the 20 + shows that I've been to, or been to the 20+ homes of friends that I've been to... etc etc. etc.

""because there's a desperate quality about it.""

Likely a mis-interpretation on your part, considering that I have nothing to "prove"

"Later"
Much...




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

You know Elvis? You must be a faith guy....., posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:43:58
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 ""Prove it.""

What, - a scientific investigation doesn't provide you with proof. The results could be inconclusive.

And, - how do you define proof?

And, - what constitutes proof?

""then it's just an opinion shared by a relative few.""
No, - The one is not a logical deduction from the other. Sorry.

"" Remember Elvis sightings?""
This also harms your case.

""just an opinion shared by a relative few.""

Do a little reversey on that pal. Piling up experiences & tests shows the opposite....

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Yes: very well thank you. While you're looking things up, posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:47:57
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 try looking up the scientific method: that is, - if you can't cite any investigations or experiences that you may have had on your own.

Most people, who read/fight on the internet, don't really take the time to gain the knowledge in experience and testing.




"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Now you get to tell people what they can, and can't hear :-) -t, posted on January 22, 2015 at 17:49:20
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 .

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

Before embarking on a journey of personal discovery... , posted on January 22, 2015 at 18:06:41
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 12383
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...I'd like to peruse the published literature on observational scientific method as applied to the audibility of cable differences. Apparently there is none. Oh well. Guess we're back to opinions.

Later indeed!

 

RE: Ahh... "cables as tone controls" argument., posted on January 22, 2015 at 18:10:43
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Joe and Sam?

Look, we know what cables do. L, R, C, grounding and shielding, microphonics, contact rectification. That's it, unless you are a Martian who hears to 30 gHz and you have to worry about the likes of skin effect. Those can of course have a multitude of effects, some of them profound, many dependent on the circumstances of the setup, e.g., whether one is dealing with a high RF environment, equipment impedances, etc.

Sometimes, when problems arise, a different cable can help; sometimes make it will make things worse; most often, it will make no difference or such a subtle difference that only one in a hundred wlll hear it. Charging more than oh, say, $100 for a cable is probably highway robbery; selling an expensive cable for something that you can do with 90 cents worth of parts from Radio shack (if there is still Radio Shack this week) is, well, robbing Fort Knox.

See my point now?

 

Not! and especially not an either/or dichotomy, posted on January 22, 2015 at 18:51:39
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 as with any good scientific investigation, one doesn't need to walk the ground already walked, or consult with any other investigation."Personal discovery" LOL.....
The naysayers are making unreasonable claims because they are trying to assert facts based on no evidence. They/you are committing the error of extapolating the "some" to the "all" Again, = playing God, and engaging in belief.

Still waiting for you to cite specific examples of YOUR TESTS.


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Not! and especially not an either/or dichotomy, posted on January 22, 2015 at 18:54:35
Sprezza Tura
Audiophile

Posts: 4585
Location: New York City
Joined: August 24, 2012
 Well said.

 

RE: Ahh... "cables as tone controls" argument., posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:14:26
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 Can you relate what experiences you've had with different combinations of equipment, & cables?
Do all speakers sound the same? Do Wilson Watt Puppies sound the same as AvanteGarde duo horns? Or, Aerial 20Ts? Which of the 3 if any, are capable of more low volume midrange detail retreival? Can they all use the same amplification to drive them? Since Speltz anti-cable is very different physically than Acoustic Zen, 1 is $100, the other is $4000, and they both have different levels of resistance, a different shielding, and 1 brand has two physically separated wires to each speaker, do they both cost the same to make? Of course, I left off terminators, whether or not there are multiple types of metal in the wire, and/or shielding. And, the purity, and/or density..... Perhaps one has 50% of the retail price going into its manufacture, perhaps 1 has 5%?

See my point?

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: Ahh... "cables as tone controls" argument., posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:29:19
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12332
Joined: February 9, 2010
 'Fraid i don't. Even ignoring the notoriously ridiculous markup for cables, my point was that there's only so much one can do to a cable to improve its performance or better suit it to a particular application, and none of the things that I know of that improve the sound cost very much, because a cable is a pretty simple device. Of course you can use esoteric components or manufacturing techniques that do nothing except impress potential customers -- I'm talking about bona fide improvements that result in worthwhile audible differences.

 

You're talking about the act of listening, and experiences, posted on January 22, 2015 at 19:51:32
Sordidman
Audiophile

Posts: 13665
Location: San Francisco
Joined: May 14, 2001
 The act & process of having listening experience is far to complex to make definitive claims outside the actual experience. Depending on equipment, room, quality of recording, one "may" have a different experience with different cabling.
I can't make any assertion about your experiences, (especially if you won't elucidate them).

Instead of telling the people what they hear, and that they're imagining things, - why not trust them? After all, they have more experience/knowledge.

People who have heard many, many, many cables, over a wide range of playback systems do not "preach" that all cables sound the same, and/or make little to no difference.

OTOH, most do not say that they make a bigger difference than speakers, for example. I would also hazard, that it is a rare person that will buy an inappropriate cable for their system. I have $2500 speaker cables for my $13,000 speakers in my main system, (after testing more than 10 different brands in all price ranges). I have Home Depot 10 gauge lamp cord in my bedroom system.

"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

RE: I'm not sure if you noticed the slight difference:, posted on January 22, 2015 at 20:06:13
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 I personally LOVE the unsupported and unsupportABLE accusations. Somebody calls BS on the whole cable scene and INSTANTLY it's YOU can't hear. YOU have a marginal system. YOU have a defective brain. YOU have an Ugly Sister.

That's why I stay OUT of most of that cable nuttiness. After purchasing cables with good measureables i simply dropped the matter.

I'm NOT made of $$$ and even if I had a buffer bank account, I could find better stuff to worry about than REALLY expensive cables and wire.
Too much is never enough

 

"I hear it" doesn't constitute proof., posted on January 23, 2015 at 01:26:41
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 A lot of people get into trouble listening to what the little voices in their head tells them.

Face it, y'all were the Jehovah's witness' of the audiophile world before Rod so kindle created your cable asylum and your own, personal "no-go zone", replete with your own muhammed. But, they have their own houses of worship too.

And, just like the witness', when you leave your house of worship and go out knocking on doors, you can expect to either have the door slammed in your face or, even worse, ridiculed.

So, some guy dared transgress your beliefs in your own no go zone and you had Rod apply sharia law. Now you get to dance your war dance.

But, again, if those differences are so apparant, how come nobody has ever convinced the world they are all that significant? After all, nobody disagrees that speakers sound different. Where's that proof?

"I can hear it" doesn't quite cut it in the real world.

 

Hmmmm, I guess that's true. ;-). Nt, posted on January 23, 2015 at 04:15:39
geoffkait
 Nt

 

And what about those that have extensive experience and claim cables don't matter? , posted on January 23, 2015 at 06:11:43
kuribo
Audiophile

Posts: 1759
Location: sw wi
Joined: June 27, 2000
 There are plenty of people who have tried many types, have even performed tests of various sorts, and claim no material differences.

 

RE: "I hear it" doesn't constitute proof., posted on January 23, 2015 at 06:41:40
Dave_K
But, again, if those differences are so apparant, how come nobody has ever convinced the world they are all that significant? After all, nobody disagrees that speakers sound different. Where's that proof?


Who cares?

Nobody has convinced the world that high end audio reproduction is a worthy pursuit. There's no point in trying to validate one's hobby with the rest of the world that doesn't care.

The only people whose opinions matter to me regarding audio are people who have heard what high end audio systems are capable of and who appreciate it enough to make it their pursuit and who can listen critically and then articulate the aspects of sound quality they are hearing.

There are plenty of people who pontificate about the audio hobby based on a simplistic model of audio reproduction who have never experienced really high fidelity systems, or who have but couldn't appreciate the difference. I do not care about these people's opinions on system building. Nor do I care what anybody thinks who isn't into this hobby.

A better example of religious belief in this hobby is clinging to the DBT. It is an experimental technique that has done nothing to advance the state of the art of audio reproduction. Successful researchers select experimental methods that provide new information and help them advance. Only a fool worships a method that brings no results.

Regarding the cable asylum rules, they would be unnecessary if everybody exercised simple forum etiquette. No hobby forum anywhere welcomes people who post there only to tell everyone their hobby is bullshit. It should be tolerable in small doses, but the cable forum had a history where it suffered from a few disruptive posters flooding the forum with the same pointless comments over and over.

 

Isn't it amazing how much virtual ink is spilled, posted on January 23, 2015 at 07:00:52
E-Stat
Audiophile

Posts: 37666
Joined: May 12, 2000
Contributor
  Since: April 5, 2002
 by those who find no value in using better cables?

"Let me tell you all about what I don't experience!" :)

 

RE: "I hear it" doesn't constitute proof., posted on January 23, 2015 at 07:25:37
Markw*
Audiophile

Posts: 10370
Joined: June 1, 2001
 So, they don't like people asking uncomfortable questions they can't answer with scientific testing and logic? That's why they need to be segregated into their own no-go zone?

So be it. Whatever it takes to keep the peace. Let the beheadings begin!

Personally, I'll trust my own ears and keep my opinions to myself unless, of course, I form a cult with like minded zealots and we can stroke each others egos. ...and then we can proselytize to the rest of the world until some kind person offers us refuge. where no discouraging words are allowed.

 

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