True or False?

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 14:42:26
AbeCollins Audiophile Posts: 46302 Location: USA Joined: June 22, 2001 Contributor Since: February 2, 2002	Oh, why not I guess... If Takata airbags were made by 'experimentalists', the exploding shrapnel problem would have smacked 'em square in the face before harming the general public.

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 14:50:00
cdb Audiophile Posts: 2948 Joined: April 6, 2001	The only case of that happening is the Stereophile measurements department. These measurements may report "bad", despite what the reviewer found. Mr. measurement rarely, if ever, listens for himself to judge if the "bad" measurement actually means jack. In other disciplines, try building a bridge by that method. Or an airplane.

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 14:57:03

Palustris
Audiophile

Posts: 2408
Location: Cape Cod
Joined: September 12, 2008

The term 'Audio Amateur' was coined by Ed Dell about 1980 and he promoted user built audio equipment from the turntable to the speakers in 'Speaker Builder' and 'Audio Amateur' magazines and then later, 'Glass Audio'. That said, he relied upon professional engineers like Dvid Hafler, Erno Brobely, and Nelson Pass to design the electronics. The focus, then, was on users building their own gear based upon proven designs by the experts.

There was considerable discussion on designing circuits and AC and DC circuit theory so that the readers would understand the basic circuit components and be able to read schematics and troubleshoot their creations. Modifying equipment was a major topic and here the audio amateur with a basic understanding of his high school physics circuit theory was well equipped to contribute to the discussion. Many readers submitted articles based upon their building and listening experiences modifying gear.

In the end, the engineer/experimentalist dichotomy is a false one. Without a proper understanding of AC and DC circuit theory, one can’t design anything more complex than a flashlight. Whether trained as an engineer, a technician, or just a smart high school student, they need some basic knowledge of electronics to understand the theory.

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:04:58
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15524 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	False. there has to be some kind of AC/DC circuit(s) theory.

I'll take False for $400...N/T, posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:11:43
musetap Audiophile Posts: 31879 Location: San Francisco Joined: July 8, 2003 Contributor Since: January 28, 2004	aa "Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure

False and True, posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:22:47
genungo	The making of great audio requires a great engineer who is also an experimentalist who likes to listen.

an engineer with imagination, posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:47:57
cloudwalker Audiophile Posts: 634 Location: central wa Joined: September 27, 2012	how many good pieces of audio equipment have been made by a non-engineer? I am guessing 0

I'm not aware of any experimentalist, posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:54:44
E-Stat Audiophile Posts: 37666 Joined: May 12, 2000 Contributor Since: April 5, 2002	who has designed a vacuum tube or solid state device (JFET, MOSFET, SIT, etc.) from scratch. If you refer to someone who pieces together existing technology parts, then I would agree. It all depends upon your interpretation of "made".

It takes one who is both..., posted on December 11, 2014 at 16:36:40
mkuller Audiophile Posts: 38130 Location: SF Bay Area Joined: April 22, 2003	...a great engineer will design and implement a superior design - and then will experiment listening by ear to fine tune it.

+1 (nt), posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:16:47
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17305 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	. Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:24:16
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17305 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	That problem may not be one of design. The build doesn't always follow the design. That's two different parts of a company. Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

I'd rather have my equipment made by ..., posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:26:33
Mike K Audiophile Posts: 13976 Location: 97701 Joined: September 23, 1999	engineers who understand what it is they are making. Talented amateurs are still amateurs. Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

Exactly (nt, posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:33:03
genungo	.

Well, in the world of guitar amps, posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:33:45
FenderLover	Some of the best amps were made by men that started out as TV-radio repairmen. Or some such, non-college educated career. FWIW. 8^)

RE: Well, in the world of guitar amps, posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:41:55

Tre'
Industry Professional

Posts: 17305
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: February 9, 2002

It doesn't take a college degree to gain an understanding of the theory behind audio electronics.

Anyone employing those theories while building an amplifier IS engineering the build.

An uneducated experimentalists might come up with something that sounds good but it would just be a fluke and he still wouldn't understand why it sounds good.

He might even start making up theories of his own (that have no basis in reality) as to why it sounds good and spend a lot of time on internet chat sites confusing the less educated.

Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"

Depends..., posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:59:57

Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: MN
Joined: January 31, 2010

I am not a PE...but I work with allot of them...I work in the field of Architectural Precast Concrete, started in production, in the field erecting then into project management and design...so in all aspects with 30 years+ experience...(I drew my first Sewage treatment plant at age 14, in my ol'man's business)...

By shear exposure, putting out fires and knowing what works and what doesn't...I can design a project from reinforcement, to lifting, to field connections and fixes...I cannot crunch the numbers, but I KNOW the nuts and bolts of it...

I will get a young Engineer design something...when I tell him it won't work...he looks at me like "what the hell do you know"...then I proceed to ask a few key questions in Engineer speak...go check it again...

Electronics are not my forte...but I can believe there are guys like me out there...I do believe an Engineer needs to be involved at some point...but they do not always have practical experience of what actually works...theory is just that at times...theory...

Just my $.02
thanks
Mark

RE: Depends..., posted on December 11, 2014 at 18:06:35
fantja Audiophile Posts: 15524 Location: Alabama Joined: September 11, 2010	Nice illustration Mark.

It is a qualified statement and as such it can be true ..., posted on December 11, 2014 at 18:30:21
three_sox	...However no amount of navel gazing will give a yes or no answer which will be universally agreed to. There is plenty of great audio gear made by folk who are not engineers.

Absolutely true, posted on December 11, 2014 at 20:05:56

madisonears
Audiophile

Posts: 1587
Location: midwest
Joined: September 6, 2006

The key word here is "great." A decent engineer can design a piece of audio equipment that will function perfectly and reliably. Anyone who has ever held a soldering iron, however, will know that to make something that sounds great -- be it sources, amps, or speakers -- requires dedication and willingness to experiment over and over and over again until it turns out right. Great is not easy, and it cannot be merely designed. It must be achieved with an open mind, the ability to know the sound of music, and lots of work. And I don't mean stupid tweaks with rope caulk and crystals.

Peace,
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9

False, posted on December 11, 2014 at 20:29:57
jtpzenith Audiophile Posts: 607 Joined: November 4, 2002	Today we have a large number of dynamic speakers available that are lightyears ahead of anything on the market 20 years ago. That's the result of engineering and not a golden ear. My guess is that the same goes for phono cartridges and turntables. The days of coming up with something world class by ear is over.

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 20:34:35
hahax@verizon.net Audiophile Posts: 4310 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 22, 2006	Great audio equipment is made by 'engineers' who can hear. But the engineers can be self educated. They don't have to have a degree. But they damn well better understand the engineering side other wise it's like throwing darts blindly. When you look the odds are it won't hit a bulls eye. And if by dumb luck it does how do you do it a second time?

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 20:51:18

Alpha Al
Industry Professional

Posts: 2958
Location: N. Carolina
Joined: February 16, 2004
Contributor
Since: December 3, 2015

"Great audio equipment doesn't have to be made by engineers, but by experimentalists who listen to what they make."

Great equipment should utilize good engineering practice, but the engineering degree is not a necessity IMHO. Lots of good gear has been designed by non-engineers.

The ability to listen to what they make and discern what sounds best is imperative.

A good example is the early solid-state high power amps. They were designed by engineers, had impressive specs on paper, but just did not sound as good as well established tube designs that looked much worse on paper.

+1 nt, posted on December 11, 2014 at 21:29:15
Tony Lauck Audiophile Posts: 13629 Location: Vermont Joined: November 12, 2007	Tony Lauck "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Well, in the world of guitar amps, posted on December 11, 2014 at 21:54:20

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

"It doesn't take a college degree to gain an understanding of the theory behind audio electronics."

You may not need the degree and the tuition debt that goes along with it. But you will need at least college level technical knowledge to be successful designing audio equipment. The needed knowledge can not be obtained by trial and error. There must be disciplined study to learn the underlying theory and mathematics. While college level engineering and math may suffice for designing amplifier circuits, they will be inadequate for designing mixed signal (analog plus digital) devices such as DACs, which will require graduate level knowledge.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

No Clear Cut Answer.........., posted on December 11, 2014 at 23:17:55
Todd Krieger Audiophile Posts: 37333 Location: SW United States Joined: November 2, 2000	Most engineers are experimentalists, I think...........

RE: True or False?, posted on December 11, 2014 at 23:45:31
Disbeliever Audiophile Posts: 1877 Joined: June 1, 2012	A totally absurd question!

can you give me an example, posted on December 12, 2014 at 00:21:50
cloudwalker Audiophile Posts: 634 Location: central wa Joined: September 27, 2012	of a good product that an engineer had nothing to do with.

RE: True but..., posted on December 12, 2014 at 03:19:35

b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006

...only in the field of electronic musical instruments when this activity is called 'circuit bending'.

For all other applications and particularly when it comes to accurate reproduction the designer has got to have a solid engineering background although a masters degree is not necessary.

In 50 years I yet have to meet an engineer who is not also an experimentalist.
Basic engineering knowledge is absolutely essential for productive experimentation.
Without it you are just trying to nail jello to a wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_bending

RE: can you give me an example, posted on December 12, 2014 at 04:05:54
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	I have two "companies" in mind. Both are small, but well known. I'd rather not say.

Better get a good marketeer. Nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 04:49:51
geoffkait	Nt

"act on the basis of experience"...., posted on December 12, 2014 at 05:09:03
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	Quantity is not Quality. roger wang ('The Rog' he don't dodge)

RE: True or False?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 06:53:10

middleground

The way I see it "experimentalists" stand on the shoulders of the engineers that preceded them and are as likely to screw things up as to come up with a winner and more than likely spend an inordinate amount of time doing it.

BTW a biased and unrealistic question if ever there was one, but having read way too much here and on similar sites nothing surprises me, although I do shake my head quite a lot.

Do you honestly think that there are two camps and never the twain shall meet?

RE: True but..., posted on December 12, 2014 at 06:54:00
middleground	Absolutely.

RE: can you give me an example, posted on December 12, 2014 at 06:55:33
middleground	"I'd rather not say.". Case closed. Au suivant!

RE: "act on the basis of experience"...., posted on December 12, 2014 at 06:59:23

middleground

I always believed that quality if well and minutely defined and analyzed could almost always be translated into something quantifiable.

For example, how would you get to units like the Proctor otherwise?

So who designed those tube circuits, non-engineers? nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 08:10:48
Rick W	nt

RE: True or False?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 08:15:54
AudioSoul Audiophile Posts: 4594 Location: north central AZ Joined: July 9, 2005	I believe it's true to a point. Even experimentalists hear differently.

How about both?? Anything wrong with that?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 08:26:57
Ralph Manufacturer Posts: 4778 Location: Minnesota Joined: April 24, 2002	Contrary to popular belief, some engineers actually listen to their work. And they are known to experiment too. Conversely, I have seen experimenters torment well-built and well-designed excellent sounding equipment, resulting in garbage. So it has to be both, right??

RE: True or False?, posted on December 12, 2014 at 08:47:01

Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
Since: September 4, 2000

I'll second that as well. I've run across a lot of superb "technicians" who didn't have an engineering degree. They did however have extensive knowledge of proper circuit design/ layout. All based on solid engineering principles in the first place. But the most elusive nugget is tech or engineer who isn't just a trouble shooter, but has a great ear and can actually tune/design a component that is musically involving and desirable. All the time adhering to solid engineering of course.

True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:08:38

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

There are gifted people able to understand quite well math and physics without being engineers
The very good books are out there for the people willing to read them and able to understand them
Of course even "experimentalists" must know the basics of audio circuitry design
For instance i made a mod and fused an amp ... because i am ignorant
The bad sound of some commercial amps i think comes from the huge compromise done to keep costs low.
Take a same decent design and use better layout and parts and you get high-end sound. I am sure of that.
Kind regards,
bg

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:20:21
genungo	As you say, well-informed hobbyists might do just fine when it come to assembly and refinement. Circuit design is another matter entirely.

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:32:48
beppe61 Audiophile Posts: 4705 Joined: January 29, 2004	You mean that the principles of audio circuits design are not found in books ? Anyone can buy a good handbook of electronics and try. The world is full of self-educated designers. The basics are all in the books/manuals for the people able to understand them. Kind regards, bg

Depends on the product and what you call an engineer, posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:33:17

Dave_K

If you're talking about electronics, I think you need both.

Consider CTC builders: John Curl did the circuit design, Carl Thompson did the boards/layouts, and Bob Crump selected the parts and optimized the sonics. Personally, I would call Curl and Thompson engineers and Crump an experimentalist. But the product design depended on all 3. Engineers who aren't experimentalists could not have pulled it off. Neither could experimentalists who aren't engineers. I think every successful high end audio electronics maker relies on a mix of both.

Same for speakers.

But if you're talking about cables, I think many would argue that experimentation is more important than engineering, and I could accept that engineering is not really a requirement.

And people who specialize in the modification of existing designs or existing products may or may not need to apply engineering knowledge or principles depending on the extent of the modifications.

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 10:18:02
genungo	All I'm saying is that well intentioned hobbyists don't necessarily know enough to create the circuit designs found in those books you mention. These "self-educated designers" are (for the most part) better at refining than they are at creating.

Stradivarius, posted on December 12, 2014 at 10:18:03
uncle mag Audiophile Posts: 852 Location: sf bay area Joined: June 29, 2004	Somehow humans survived throughout history without engineers. That's not to say they haven't improved most products immensely.

RE: So who designed those tube circuits, non-engineers? nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 10:43:58
Alpha Al Industry Professional Posts: 2958 Location: N. Carolina Joined: February 16, 2004 Contributor Since: December 3, 2015	Good engineering practice always originates with engineers. That does not mean a non-engineer can't duplicate it or at least be inspired by it.

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 10:50:37
cfraser Audiophile Posts: 3208 Location: Pickering, Ontario Joined: April 30, 2000	Yeah, you can really tell when stuff is "designed" by people without background. By people who have the background of course!

RE: So who designed those tube circuits, non-engineers? nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 11:39:33

Rick W

This is what you said:

"Lots of good gear has been designed by non-engineers."

Name some that have been *designed by* non-engineers, not simply built from a schematic of an engineer's design with a few tweaks.

Appropriate engineering skills/knowledge are certainly required . . ., posted on December 12, 2014 at 11:56:00
Brian H P Audiophile Posts: 1291 Location: Oregon Joined: December 18, 2012	. . . to design a good piece of gear, but need not be acquired through a formal engineering degree program. Extensive independent study of relevant theory and practice may suffice, certainly along with a perceptive ear for sound quality. Many small manufacturers started as hobbyists and learned as they went. Some were degreed engineers, but in totally unrelated fields.

So you envy degreed civil engineers and know more! LOL!, posted on December 12, 2014 at 12:55:46

Potrzebie

Concrete is low, low tech compared to electronic design.

All great practical electrical/electronic designs were once "theory"!

Technicians are lousy designers.

I will admit there are poor engineers, but they generally lack heavy theoretical knowledge, and experience.

RE: Not really., posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:07:17
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	Antonio Stradivari took an apprenticeship with Nicola Amati aged 12-14 and made the first instrument bearing his name aged around 22 which puts him firmly into the 'engineer' category. Amati also taught Antonio Guarneri and Amati himself came from a long family tradition of instrument makers. Engineers everyone of them. Engineers have shaped human endeavour since at least babylonian times.

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:13:07
genungo	Everything I own works, that's all the background I really care about.

"Concrete is low, low tech compared to electronic design." , posted on December 12, 2014 at 13:19:34
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	Very much depends on what you do with it. Take the Millau Viaduct as an example: Designed by Norman Foster and the structural engineer Michel Virlogeux but it makes amplifier design look trivial.

RE: So who designed those tube circuits, non-engineers? nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 14:55:04
Alpha Al Industry Professional Posts: 2958 Location: N. Carolina Joined: February 16, 2004 Contributor Since: December 3, 2015	Perhaps I should have said "lots of good designs have been emulated by non-engineers". I do understand the difference.

RE: Not really., posted on December 12, 2014 at 17:24:49
uncle mag Audiophile Posts: 852 Location: sf bay area Joined: June 29, 2004	Granted, and saved countless lives along the way to building our civilization.

You seem to be confused....., posted on December 12, 2014 at 17:46:11

SJK

Between the function of an Engineer and a Designer.

By the classic definition, meaning the people who sent men to the moon using a slide rule, an Engineer is someone who can do for 10 cents what anyone can do for a dollar.

A Designer is someone who uses skill, experience and intuition to develop something new and unique.

You can be one without being the other, but you can't be something you're not.

LOL! , posted on December 12, 2014 at 19:06:21
Potrzebie	MarkMan is a college drop out that hates real engineers! You have little appreciation for "State of The Art" audio design.

RE: Not really., posted on December 12, 2014 at 19:18:28
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	To be fair engineers ended at least as many lives as they saved by designing and building weapons and other machinery of war.

"You have little appreciation for "State of The Art" audio design." , posted on December 12, 2014 at 19:29:45
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	True, simply because it really is trivial compared to a bridge, a sky scraper, a plane or even a small car.

RE: True , posted on December 12, 2014 at 20:28:11
hahax@verizon.net Audiophile Posts: 4310 Location: New Jersey Joined: March 22, 2006	They have to understand the engineering and math to design the product. That means they're functioning as true engineers when they design. If they don't know enough to function as an engineer the products they design will be awful.

b.l. don't worry about ol'Potzy...OT...thanks for the kind words.., posted on December 12, 2014 at 21:49:34

Mark Man
Audiophile

Posts: 1079
Location: MN
Joined: January 31, 2010

He trolls my posts...

I do not respond to him and it drives him nuts...

He is bitter old drunk, kind of sad actually...

He changes his moniker every few months and the moderators are well aware of his behavior...so I just let him blow...

For the record...this college drop out, (not really, I have a lonely Construction Management degree), had a really good day...that was 4 years in the making...I finally got ICC-ES approval to go along with my other approvals, IAPMO-ES, FEMA, GSA preferred supplier and Published in ACI for, SCLC, (Structural Cellular Lightweight Concrete). We will have our own and new Master spec designation also...very exciting stuff...

SCLS has great acoustic properties and actually absorbs sound...it will become the standard for high-way noise walls...it also has 1.4R per inch, so an 8" panel will have an R-Value of 11.4 with no insulation...and only weighs 75lbs per Cubic Foot...this is a game changer in the Concrete Industry...

So all of ol'Potzy attempts to ruffle my feathers just won't work...If you ever want to know the skinny on this guy, I have more than a dozen bat-$hit crazy emails from the old-coot...really funny stuff...

Thank you again
take care
Mark

He must of disconnected the breathalyzer on his computer, again...

Ok, I agree. nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 22:50:10
Rick W	nt

Designer is fine, posted on December 12, 2014 at 23:46:09
Frihed89 Audiophile Posts: 15703 Location: Copenhagen Joined: March 21, 2005	That describes the people i'm talking about, but i'm not down on engineers, just those who trust electrical theory over their ears, or don't even use their ears. In most cases the people I'm talking about aren't formally trained as engineers; they have a long history of "monkeying around" and learning; and they have a healthy backlog of orders.

RE: can you give me an example, posted on December 13, 2014 at 01:34:44
Disbeliever Audiophile Posts: 1877 Joined: June 1, 2012	WHY NOT ? name the two Companies otherwise there is no point in posting.

RE: Designer is fine, posted on December 13, 2014 at 04:09:30
middleground	It was obvious from the start that is what you were driving at: clumsy at best.

RE: "act on the basis of experience"...., posted on December 13, 2014 at 04:11:41
wangmr Audiophile Posts: 2410 Location: Downtown Joined: November 29, 2012	sorry, unfamiliar with 'Proctor'. roger wang

RE: A proctor...., posted on December 13, 2014 at 06:00:49
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	...is the main tool used by a proctologist.

RE: "act on the basis of experience"...., posted on December 13, 2014 at 06:20:14
middleground	Google is your friend, I am sometimes told.

RE: True or False?, posted on December 13, 2014 at 10:16:12
bjh Audiophile Posts: 18614 Location: Ontario Joined: November 22, 2003	False ... to make the stuff you must understand circuits for starts, not the other way around ... actually the other way around usually doesn't get far and may even end in electrocution ... what a dumb question.

RE: Well..., posted on December 13, 2014 at 11:01:07
b.l.zeebub Audiophile Posts: 9361 Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W Joined: April 17, 2006	...it did seem somewhat personal before I waded in but I wasn't certain. Being a welder by trade and european I have no idea what all those abbreviations mean but it seems quite interesting stuff. Would it be possible to cast speaker cabinets from SCLS?

True but not just "experimenters", posted on December 13, 2014 at 11:47:32

Goober58

I've known technicians, hobbyists and hacks who were actually more competent than most engineers when it came to practical knowledge.

In fact big picture guys like CEOs, marketers and managers might be perfectly capable of assembling a team and implementing a design via a top down strategy knowing very little about the details of the design themselves.

Pretty sure a product designer can do it himself or hire people to do it for him. The electronics are just one part of the product and in fact there's a plethora of circuit designs available on line and/or in books free for the taking. Implementation is the key to how well a good design will work in real life.

Note - designing a circuit is quite different than designing a product. Circuit designs can and do often exist before a product emerges. Circuit design doesn't require an engineering degree but it does require extensive knowledge about circuits - and you don't need college or a degree to learn about it on your own. A fast food worker with an interest and experience in audio circuitry could design circuits.

I'd prefer experimental engineers myself :) nt, posted on December 13, 2014 at 13:34:03
DKL Audiophile Posts: 1046 Location: Deland, FL Joined: November 20, 2001	.

"Depends", posted on December 13, 2014 at 14:57:37

Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004

Some of the most brilliant inventors I have worked with were not degreed engineers. But all were capable of designing a product that was both SAFE to operate, as well as innovate.

When you say "experimenter" I have to wonder the following:

1. Is the person capable of designing a reliable, safe electronic product?
2. Does the person know enough about circuits, topologies in order to actually innovate? Or is it like playing darts in the dark?
3. Is this "experimenter" going to copy a design and then dork around with component value changes - without understanding what he or she is doing - and then declare an improvement?

I suppose it depends.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

RE: True , posted on December 14, 2014 at 04:05:11
middleground	So you have something against engineers but not against engineering? Fascinating position...

RE: True , posted on December 14, 2014 at 10:22:57
zako Audiophile Posts: 935 Location: Mo. Joined: March 29, 2004	Would you let a amature experimenter perform brain surgery on your child..I know of a amature amp designer that electrocuted himself designing a amp,,

LOL!, posted on December 14, 2014 at 16:57:04

Potrzebie

Mark

Tell him "you" are a former alcoholic.

You are the one that harassed me with Emails and phone calls, after I declined a visit to your condo.

great to hear from you..., posted on December 14, 2014 at 17:37:05
Mark Man Audiophile Posts: 1079 Location: MN Joined: January 31, 2010	Hope you are having a wonderful holiday season... And all is well in your world... take care best regards Mark

RE: True , posted on December 15, 2014 at 04:44:54

beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004

Hi again

" So you have something against engineers but not against engineering? "

no of course. What i mean is that engineering laws/rules are in the books for anyone able to understand them.
So it could be that an amateur with a certain level of education studies an handbook and then he is able to design.
To become a very good designer requires a mix of predisposition, passion and motivation.
We had some bad teachers at school. A friend of mine used to come to one or two lessons and then to decide to study alone on the book.
And he got top marks.
I think he could have studied without never come to school.
He is a very good engineer.

Kind regards,
bg

RE: Designer is fine, posted on December 15, 2014 at 14:24:54

Dave_K

In most cases the people I'm talking about aren't formally trained as engineers; they have a long history of "monkeying around" and learning; and they have a healthy backlog of orders.

If the people you're talking about are designing their own audio electronics or speakers, it's probably fair to say they are practicing audio engineering.

As others have pointed out, in many or most engineering fields a person can practice engineering without a degree or professional qualification.

Or are they simply cloning existing designs and modifying them?

Thanks nt, posted on December 15, 2014 at 21:02:11
Potrzebie	nt

That's Best! nt, posted on December 15, 2014 at 21:06:44
Potrzebie	nt

General Asylum

True or False?

2.106.16.211