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A question about fidelity

85.19.92.6
Posted on December 11, 2014 at 08:06:22
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi
i see often the discussion nothing like the real thing and of course i agree, who would not do that
But i have a doubt
The last club jazz concert i went the instruments where amplified.
So i guess the signal from them or from the mics went to a mixing desk and then to amps and speakers.
And the sound was pretty nice indeed.
Question: if i record digitally the signal out of the mixing desk and then i play it back through the same mixing desk i would get the same sound ?
This means to me that amplified music, at least, can be reproduced with an extreme level of fidelity.
Or in another way ... if i record the sound from an electric guitar digitally and play it back on a marshall amp the effect will be the same of the instrument ?
I think so.

Differently, and of course, to capture and give back an unamplified sound is an entire different task and a challenge.
But also very stimulating.
But for an electric instrument ... i do not know. Is it easier ?
It could be less complex.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

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big Question, posted on December 11, 2014 at 09:34:15
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 with lots of answers due to MANY MANY factors at play. Sorry for a non-answer. But in short no. My best answer would be close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades meaning it may get close in some cases (elec guitar,bass recorded direct not via mic) but not in drums and mic'd things (versus direct)

E
T


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

And the sound was pretty nice indeed., posted on December 11, 2014 at 09:36:04
oldmkvi
Audiophile

Posts: 10583
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I've never had that experience, at Yoshi's Oakland or Village Vanguard, NYC.
Terrible, terrible LOUD sound!

 

Short answer:, posted on December 11, 2014 at 10:44:13
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
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 No.


Longer answer: Since you said 'club jazz concert' I assume a rather small venue (capacity in the hundreds). In a small venue the sound you hear is a mixture of the venues PA AND the bands back line (ie their instruments and associated amplification).
Consequently if you record the output of the desk you only record half of what you heard in the club.
The result is usually bass-shy and the drums will likely sound quite bad.

The normal way live recordings are done is by using a split feed into a mobile recording studio built into a truck parked outside the venue.

2nd question: Also No. You'll run it through a guitar twice adding twice the distortion.
Theoretically you could get fairly close recording the electric output of the guitar via a DI box and run the signal through an amp at a later stage.
However remember that in case of an electric guitar the guitar amp is effectively a part of the instrument. You would need to know the guitarists personal settings for bass, mids, presence and treble plus those of any effects units he might use and switch between them as necessary.

 

RE: big Question, posted on December 11, 2014 at 11:17:27
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the reply and yes there is also the direct sound from instruments that arrives to the listener
But let's make another case ... a rock concert in a big arena
Every sound that reach a listener is coming from speakers
In that case i am sure that the recorded signal out from the mixing desk an played back to the PA system will sound almost exactly the same
Because there will not be any direct sound arriving to people let's say 50 meters from the stage outdoor
But in a club yes i understand.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: And the sound was pretty nice indeed., posted on December 11, 2014 at 11:23:29
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi i understand but that depends on the skill and taste of the sound engineer
But i have noticed also myself that they tend to raise the volume too much
Maybe he should have check better the volume
But as i have been already told the direct sound of the instruments like drums also reaches the listener
I should have mentioned only purely electric instruments ... like electric guitar, synth, electric piano, electric bass .. in a group completely electric i think that the result would be the same
Quite sure.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: Short answer:, posted on December 11, 2014 at 11:35:04
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Thanks a lot for the very interesting reply
So it remains only the usual mics pair to capture a realistic soundstage in the club
I wonder how they have been able to capture the sound in the best recording like the famous " Jazz at the Pawnshop "
Probably with mics placed strategically in the room ?
and not from the mixing desk ?
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: big Question, posted on December 11, 2014 at 12:05:11
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 ""In that case i am sure that the recorded signal out from the mixing desk an played back to the PA system will sound almost exactly the same""

Again many factors at play. The recording, the room , the gear and on and on.


E
T


ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 11, 2014 at 12:20:31
Inmate51
 Beppe, this is an excellent question!

Put simply, a recording from the live sound desk may or may not be a good recording. It really depends upon the particular circumstances.

If the recording is from the live PA mix, you can expect some imbalance, since the mix and EQ is made for the venue.

There is often a monitor mix.

There is often a multi-track version for later mixdown.

There may or may not be a two channel mix available for any of these mixes.

:)

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 11, 2014 at 12:40:16
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for giving me valuable advice
following me in my strange ramblings
Clearly i was not considering the quota of direct sound that reaches the listener and that is added to the signal from the speakers
Still i wonder how they make live recordings in jazz club like the Jazz at the Pawnshop ... i would be curious to know the technique used
From the mixing desk or with mics in the room ?
An excellent recording that i do not like very much, Take five apart
of which i have found a video quite well recorded (in the link)
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 11, 2014 at 12:46:15
Goober58
 "Question: if i record digitally the signal out of the mixing desk and then i play it back through the same mixing desk i would get the same sound ?"

Sure provided it's played back in the same environment (including audience). Take the recording and the mixing board home and it probably will sound different all together.

"But for an electric instrument ... i do not know. Is it easier ?"

Depends - one can make really great audience recordings (my favorites) and there's no reason to think soundboard recordings can't be excellent.

IMO a studio recording is much different than a properly mic'd acoustical recording or an audience recording of an amplified performance.

 

What's really interesting is to see the non-audiophile quality present in "live" music amplifications. And the, posted on December 11, 2014 at 14:41:08
tinear
Audiophile

Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
Joined: April 9, 2006
 inferior loudspeakers.
So… I'd say (unfortunately) that most studio recordings by good studios would put the "live" ones to shame.

 

RE: And the sound was pretty nice indeed., posted on December 11, 2014 at 15:06:48
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15524
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Louder is better.

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 11, 2014 at 17:16:32
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 If you took the feeds and played it back you'd have pretty compressed and loud sound, quite live all the same. It would be weird because it is designed to play over the room and crowd, and if the band rocks or otherwise gets people excited the sound would also be playing in the context of the competing ambient source - the crowd lol

... so it would sound pretty odd I suspect.


 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 11, 2014 at 22:15:20
Inmate51
 Hi Beppe,

Good recordings made at live events are "generally" not the same feed which is sent to the P.A. At least at major pro performances.

Now I'm going to ask you to buy a CD. Go to RogerIngram.com and buy his new CD. (Tell him Dave sent you.) It's only 6 tracks, and there IS a "room sound", but it's excellent music, excellent performance, and the recording quality is great!

Y'all might not know that Roger

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 12, 2014 at 06:01:45
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot again for the interesting information
I am very curiuos about live recording techniques
It is a technical challenge and very fascinating
I should have done that instead of copy and paste reports ...
The idea of capturing and event in time and put it in a cd ... wonderful.
And i am sure that the best recordings are even moving.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 12, 2014 at 07:29:54
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks a lot for the very helpful advice.
I agree completely on the live recordings being nicer than studio ones
After this discussion i understand that to record live events is indeed a challenge , but also a very fascinating one
Studio recordings sound a little dead by comparison ...
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 12, 2014 at 08:16:33
Inmate51
 Hey Beppster (may I call you Beppster?), as a musician and audio "engineer", I 'get' the issues with making a recording at a live event. :)

If the recording is made via a sound reinforcement desk, things can become a bit sticky. This really depends upon the venue, the sound tech, and the various feeds they have available - but I'm starting to repeat myself. ;)

In "smaller" venues, with good equipment and decent acoustics, a live recording from the desk can be very good, and even exceptional.

I want you to buy two recordings: The aforementioned Roger Ingram CD (and remember to say that Dave sent ya), and Eric Clapton's "One More Car, One More Driver" DVD. These are examples of great recording with and without separate feeds for the audio, and in completely different types of venues.

BTW, in my previous post, there was a "half sentence" at the end. Ha! The point was going to be that Roger was the lead trumpet for Harry Connick for like 20-25 years. Roger is a great guy, an awesome trumpet player, and extremely smart musician. This his first "solo" CD, and, even live, he didn't miss a note. Buy it - it might get me a free bottle of root beer! lol

Contrast Roger's CD with Eric's. Eric's is the whole big deal, with multi-track audio and video mixed separately for each distribution channel. I don't know Eric nor his audio crew, nor how they track/store the performance.

:)

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:28:39
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi i would prefer Beppstar but feel free to call me as you like ... you should hear how my best friends call me
I will buy the cds you mention
When i see shipping prices 3 times the value of the cds i wonder why only chinese brands have discovered free shipping
If i understand well one recording is via mixing desk while the other is more complex also with the mix of signals coming from ambient mics ?
Very interesting.
It is really an art the recording and i understand why the very good sound engineer are so famous
Nice work. Expecially for people loving music.
Thanks again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: What's really interesting is to see the non-audiophile quality present in "live" music amplifications. And the, posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:47:45
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and yes i agree .. the studio recordings can be perfect
But what about the live effect ... the feeling of the venue
I loved to read the Stereophile review in the link ... it started my fascination for the recordings (even more than for the music itself).

" I've got to tell you that a live microphone feed, especially coming out of a 24-bit/96kHz dCS Elgar processor, sounds considerably more real than anything I've ever heard committed to any medium.
I found it disorienting to slip the headsets on and be immediately transported into the acoustic of the chapel—which makes me wonder how the characters on Star Trek can handle transporter beams with such aplomb. Ah, the wonders of bad acting. It sounds silly, but I'm not kidding. Putting on the Nova Sigs took me so totally into a different space that it was confusing "

Wonderful ! the feeling to be transported in the place where the musical event has taken place.
Thanks again.

Kind regards,
bg

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 12, 2014 at 09:54:29
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
Hi and thanks for the helpful reply
I did not take into account the direct sound from the band that adds to the sound from the speakers
So it seems pretty impossible to duplicate the real sound unless maybe if only amplified instruments are used like a digital piano for instance that has no sound
So i guess that if the recording of a digital piano played back through the PA system shoud sound pretty close to the piano itself. I guess.
And also an electric guitar or a electric bass.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

I agree: an audience and its electricity are a huge part of musical enjoyment. nt, posted on December 12, 2014 at 10:36:32
tinear
Audiophile

Posts: 65782
Location: Kansas City, KS
Joined: April 9, 2006
 d

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 13, 2014 at 01:38:10
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 You've already presumed to know the answers to your questions and have already drawn your conclusions from those presumtions.

In the Mar/Apr, 2009 issue of The Absolute Sound, editor-in-chief Robert Harley stated, "I believe that something catastrophic is occurring at the recording mic's diaphragms so that much of the music never makes it to the recording." Paraphrased.

Elsewhere, I think on their old website www.avguide.com, Harley explained that he came to that conclusion from an experiment that Ed Meitner of EMM Labs performed where he recorded a piece from an electric guitar's amp/speaker and then played back the recording through that same amp/speaker and the sound was nothing like the original.

So if you trust Meitner (why would you?), then your own presumptuous answers are incorrect and therefore your conclusions are also incorrect.

Harley used the word catastrophic and he's right. Something catastrophic is occurring.

Ed Meitner's experiment was simple. However simple it was, Meitner still overlooked a couple of fundamentals and therefore, IMO, derived at incorrect conclusions.

Nevertheless, Meitner, and then Harley both concluded that because of that experiment and since the playback sound was so vastly inferior to the original live sound both coming out of the same speaker, the catastrophic problem MUST lay with the recording mic's diaphram.

Yet, it can easily be demonstrated that the vast majority of the live music performance is indeed making it to the recording medium. And if that is the case, then Meitner and Harley are wrong in their speculations of the recording mic's diaphrams being the cause.

Therefore, I speculate that bg's speculative responses to his own questions are far more correct than Meitner's and Harley's speculative conclusions.

Good job, beppe61. Specutatively speaking. :)

 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 13, 2014 at 08:46:53
beppe61
Audiophile

Posts: 4705
Joined: January 29, 2004
 Hi and thanks a lot for the very interesting and valuable reply
Let me just reply between the lines to some passages

"I believe that something catastrophic is occurring at the recording mic's diaphragms so that much of the music never makes it to the recording."

Ok. I agree that the first transducer is what fixes the bar for sound quality. It seems quite obvious.
And then ? no more recorded music ?
I see instead this as a challenge to improve the quality of the mics
This is where the magic is
A well recorded (and played back) disk can give nice emotions

" an experiment that Ed Meitner of EMM Labs performed where he recorded a piece from an electric guitar's amp/speaker and then played back the recording through that same amp/speaker and the sound was nothing like the original "

sorry this is not what i meant
I meant to record digitally the sound coming out from the electric guitar and send it to the amp without any transducers in between

This said the best mics are masterpieces and subject of cult among sound engineers
This speaks a lot for the importance of these devices
And blessed are the mics that capture a nice copy of a real event for ever for people to enjoy it.
Thanks again.
Kind regards,
bg

 

Comment on live performance last evening - Medeski, Martin, Scofield, and Wood, posted on December 13, 2014 at 09:17:12
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Went to see Medeski, Martin, Scofield, and Wood at Massey Hall (downtown Toronto - great hall!).

Vibrations and rattles coming from the bass and to lesser extent the drums would have been considered entirely unacceptable in a studio recording but didn't distract from the performance ... not even a little bit! ;)

They're touring their new release, Juice (think electricity not beverage), a funky/jazzy/bit of everything-y piece of work that has as its basis riffs from Rockabilly/r&b/rock tunes that then receive the 'treatment' ... well that's the way I see it anyway ... good fun!


 

RE: A question about fidelity, posted on December 14, 2014 at 10:32:01
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Guitar amplifiers and their speakers are deliberately designed to distort. Recording this distortion and then playing it back through the same amplifier and speaker provides a double dose of distortion. I would think this would be obvious to someone like Ed Meitner. I question the accuracy of this story.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

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