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Tone Controls

74.67.16.10
Posted on November 25, 2014 at 08:23:12
Diogenes
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Joined: February 17, 2014
 Anyone remember the great "tilting" tone contols on the otherwise undistinguished old Quad preamps?
Why are tone controls anathema when we are using cable-rolling to do the same thing?

 

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RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 08:32:07
House13
Audiophile

Posts: 337
Location: SE TN
Joined: February 17, 2008
 Or tube rolling!

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 08:34:36
Diogenes
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Joined: February 17, 2014
 exactly

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 09:40:03
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 I think the idea of tone "control-a-phobia" is that the associated circuitry required may cause more harm to the purity of the signal than the desired tilt, shelving, roll-off, etc..

In contrast, tube or cable rolling seems relatively benign in comparison...

Just my own thoughts on the matter. I personally don't like them in Hi-Fi gear, but LOVE them in my bass guitar amp setup (usually just three +/- 12db bass, middle and treble controls, with the occasional presence boost control)... Darn! There goes the musician in me again!

YMMV!
Cheers,

Dman
Analog Junkie

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 09:46:40
Diogenes
Audiophile

Posts: 315
Joined: February 17, 2014
 and you can bring up the 2nd viola part in Mahler2 :-)

 

What, use Tone Controls........., posted on November 25, 2014 at 11:02:00
Basslines
Audiophile

Posts: 373
Location: The Great White North
Joined: October 22, 2003
 ....and risk getting laughed out of town by real audiophiles? Nothing could be worse than that!

If I had a buck for every retail demo I have done for a self professed audiophile where I deliberately wired one speaker out of phase (just for swank, to see if they would catch it) and still got the sale, well, you know the rest.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 11:18:53
middleground
 Because rationality is not part of the audiophile's make-up.

Any simple solution is scoffed at in favour of cosmic forces.

I have to go now, my long term study of skin effects in cables requires my undivided imagination...

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 11:23:07
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...can affect the phase of the signal.

While that may not be a big deal, I once had an Adcom preamp where you could use the tome controls or bypass them and the bypass sounded better.

With all of the trouble audiophiles go to get realistic sound, it's a shame to do something that can degrade it.

Better to use passive things like speaker/listening seat adjustments or room treatments to change the sound.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 11:23:10
middleground
 "relatively benign" actually means they leave everything to one's imagination right?

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 11:37:35
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3365
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 I remember using tone controls to enhance (make listenable) poorly recorded material more so than compensate for deficiencies in my system....or room.

 

That was the point! LOL, posted on November 25, 2014 at 12:46:03
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 Some people say they don't hear any adverse effects from tone controls (when set to the middle or zero position), while others scream heresy or blue bloody murder!

As for me- get the speakers/subs setup appropriately with the room (the room itself can be a whole other can of worms!), then treat the room. That is all the EQ/tone controlling I really need!

As with all things, YMMV!

Dman
Analog Junkie

 

I;ve always been partial to the cello and double bass! nt, posted on November 25, 2014 at 12:46:39
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
 nt

Dman
Analog Junkie

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 12:58:24
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Why are tone controls anathema when we are using cable-rolling to do the same thing?"

Some people, including myself, think tone controls set to "flat" are less transparent than no tone controls.....

Cables and "tube rolling" can be like tone controls, but the effects are a lot more subtle.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 13:09:40
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
 Please explain what what you mean by "tone controls set to "flat" are less transparent than no tone controls."

Many tone controls are always "engaged or in", even though they are set to the flat position. Others are out of the circuit in the flat position. I'm assuming you are talking about the former? If not, please explain further.







Proudly serving content-free posts since 1984.

 

I like 'em ..., posted on November 25, 2014 at 15:19:51
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13134
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I don't always listen to my system at a volume where the bottom end fills in the way I would like... and the bass control helps that.

As for tone controls adding something unwanted... if its there, I don't hear it. But, I'd imagine I'm a whole lot less fussy than a lot of folks around here.



Dean.





reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 16:03:05
Inmate51
 I don't have a clue about Quad, but your second question is very good.

Even the most basic crossover is a tone control. More "sophisicated" crossovers are "more sophisticated" tone controls.

Once a speaker is in a particular room, additional contouring may be desired. This is influenced by the owner's preference of overall sound character. It's also dependent upon the sound characteristics of the particular recording. Tone controls provide some capability for the end user to manage this, and to adjust the sound to their taste.

 

Hi, Dean. Did you buy that preamp at Audiotronics?, posted on November 25, 2014 at 17:05:35
samtellig
 (nt)

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 25, 2014 at 17:17:14
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37333
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "Many tone controls are always 'engaged or in', even though they are set to the flat position. Others are out of the circuit in the flat position. I'm assuming you are talking about the former?"

The former is what I implied. Although they probably exist, I'm not aware of a product with tone controls that function like the latter. Except for the use of a separate switch to bypass or defeat the tone controls.

 

parametric eq plug ins, posted on November 25, 2014 at 17:22:49
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023
 in Pure Music is fine tune-able tone control. i use it to fix some recordings.
Gsquared

 

Hey Sam ...., posted on November 25, 2014 at 18:25:19
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13134
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 No, this one came much later and I had Herb (Stereo Doctor) Ward go through it completely, upgrading and modifying it along the way.

I did have one (or three) back in the Audiotronics days. I just keep coming back to the C2a. It suits me.

I hope all is well, Sam. Long time no see.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Apple Mac Graphic EQ & Parametric EQ Plug-ins, posted on November 25, 2014 at 18:38:22
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46302
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 No tone controls necessary on my amp....

Like G Squared I'm playing with EQ plug-ins that are available on all Apple Mac systems and accessible by many audio applications and players like Audirvana Plus and Pure Music when playing music files.

I needed a slight bit of bass boost when listening at low volume levels late at night. I hear no degradation in sound quality when using these plug-ins and settings. I simply disable the EQ plug-in at normal listening levels. Works great!

Audirvana Plus


Preferences Panel


Collection of AU plug-ins such as EQ filters, dynamic processors, delay, reverb, etc


Parametric EQ


Graphic EQ




 

GlassWare Audio..., posted on November 25, 2014 at 19:13:39
dee eye why
Audiophile

Posts: 1148
Location: so. ohio
Joined: March 20, 2003
 sells a tilt control on their website.


.
Freak out...Far out...In out....

 

RE: "...but the effects are a lot more subtle". , posted on November 26, 2014 at 00:10:10
Neil49
Audiophile

Posts: 8850
Location: Northern Virginia
Joined: June 13, 2003
 Perhaps, but also a lot less predictable, not to mention the expense.
I'd much rather have a well-designed and built-in set of controls where the parameters were re-settable and not requiring disassembly or replacement of parts. I'm actually surprised that, in this day and age, there hasn't been an effective solution, and I wonder if the commonly held audiophile prejudices against any such feature have hindered its development.

I'm reminded of a discussion I had with someone at Audio Research, during which I expressed my annoyance at the surprisingly bare-bones capability of the remote control on their first CD player. The response of the rep was to say (with a laugh), how "audiophiles wouldn't approve of any bells and whistles on such a high-end product" By "bells and whistles", he was referring to such standard features as programming and any other functions beyond those covered by the four buttons (I think) on their remote. Wow.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 02:14:10
PAR
 Well, tube rolling or cable selection does not involve the phase shifts that are inevitable with conventional analogue tone controls.

The first preamps without tone controls that I recall being introduced on the domestic market were in around 1975. Certainly by Naim Audio here in the UK. I remember having a conversation with their CEO and designer Julian Vereker at this time. Aside from the phase problems he also mentioned effects on what I guess would be described as impulse response. In 1975 we were all listening to vinyl. Impaired impulse response made ticks and scratches far more annoying. I certainly recall that moving from my Quad preamp with its tone controls to a Naim 12s without them reduced the subjective intrusiveness of ticks and pops.

Julian was not against tone controls per se. He said that he would fit them if he knew how to make them without the deleterious side effects. Now we are in the digital world and tone controls can be reinstated without the problems.

Its funny how when I had tone controls I needed to use them. When I did not the need for their use never occurred to me again!

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 07:01:14
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "once had an Adcom preamp where you could use the tome controls or bypass them and the bypass sounded better."

I've got one of those. And one "feature" is that turning on the tone controls inverts the polarity. That may have been at least some of what you were hearing. For me that's the most useful thing they do as I find absolute polarity to often make the difference between enjoyment and background music.

I've read that polarity sensitivity is an indication of a problem in your speakers (ears too?) but whatever it's source it's handy to have a convenient handle on it without having to swap the speaker wires...

Rick

 

My Paragon tube pre, posted on November 26, 2014 at 07:02:45
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
 has no connection in the flat position.
Proudly serving content-free posts since 1984.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 07:45:16
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 I believe that all speaker designers strive for good tonal balance in their products. In the ideal world then, tone controls would not be needed. Room issues and personal preferences however live in the real world. Having tone control somewhere is nice to have.

I like that my speakers have tweeter and bass controls since my electronics do not. This allows me to achieve the balance I like and I don't mess with it further even though recordings differ. Many speakers have these controls and I think that is a useful place. I prefer that all upstream gear be as clean an simple as possible.



 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 07:58:07
Cameraman
Audiophile

Posts: 396
Location: 33701
Joined: September 25, 2011
 Scream if you will, I still use dual mono parametric analog EQ'S to shape room response in the lower mids & bottom end..............considering a pultec to shape bad recordings in the future
Thanx

 

this one looks like fun, posted on November 26, 2014 at 08:52:32
G Squared
Audiophile

Posts: 8491
Location: Washington, DC Metro Area
Joined: November 16, 2004
Contributor
  Since: May 23, 2023



I wish I had one in my archives


Gsquared

 

RE: What, use Tone Controls........., posted on November 26, 2014 at 10:54:08
uncle mag
Audiophile

Posts: 852
Location: sf bay area
Joined: June 29, 2004
 Maybe they just being polite, and didn't want to call you a poor excuse for a salesman.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 14:03:40
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "I've read that polarity sensitivity is an indication of a problem in your speakers (ears too?) "

I think you've got this backwards. Polarity insensitivity is an indication of a problem in a loudspeaker. The problem will show up in an step response plot.

Human hearing is sensitive to polarity of asymmetric waveforms. There is undisputed scientific evidence of this. But note: recordings are not consistent as to the polarity they support and in some cases individual instruments on a track will be in opposite polarity. (One can see this with cover photos where two singers are on opposite side of a ribbon microphone with a figure 8 pattern.)



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 26, 2014 at 15:24:13
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 "Human hearing is sensitive to polarity of asymmetric waveforms. There is
undisputed scientific evidence of this"

I'm pleased to know that Tony, since I can normally sense it. Sometime back a poster said that you only hear the difference if your speaker is asymmetrical but I figured it didn't really matter to me whether it was an artifact of the speaker an attribute of my hearing since the result was the same: it was a parameter that needed to be controlled.

However I'm happier to believe that I have "normal" hearing and accurate speakers and that it's an attribute of the music (or the recording) which has always been my assumption.

Rick

 

Tone Controls: wouldn't be without them., posted on November 26, 2014 at 18:33:19
DustyC
Audiophile

Posts: 963
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Integrated amp has them and I use them on about 60% of the vinyl I listen to.

 

loudness contour, posted on November 26, 2014 at 21:09:00
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 What I miss MORE than mere tone controls is the loudness button.
When listening late at nite with things turned way down, it's nice to boost the highs and lows, just a little, to restore a more lifelike sound.
That's what I use my tone controls for on my pre amp. I leave them preset and turn on or off as needed.
Too much is never enough

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 27, 2014 at 02:09:14
Rodney Gold
Audiophile

Posts: 1615
Location: Cape Town South Africa
Joined: September 24, 1999
 Been using tone controls for yonks, either dsp parametric or full room correction.
Makes a massive difference , especially in the low bass .. or just to tune to taster or make unlistenably bad recordings sound better.

I have used Sigtech , TACT, Behringger , KrK , lyngdorf room perfect , Z-sys , Acourate , Dirac , MiniDSP stuff..
Rodney Gold Cape Town

Roon/tidal>SBT>DIRAC{minidSP DDRC22) Twin Devialet D'Premiers- Vivid Audio Giya G1 Spirits , dedicated and fully treated room

 

I Have a SAE 2800 parametric EQ...., posted on November 27, 2014 at 11:19:57
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4593
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 before I upgraded it was a little on the noisy side. Once I upgraded all the caps and some resistors in the signal path and modded the power supply. it sounds really nice.

I even had an Audiophile friend that came over and one time and when he saw it in the system he kind of laughed until........ he heard it and was blown away that it sounded so good and didn't add any negatives to the sound/music.

I had some Altec Model 14's and that could get a little rough on the top end. So with the SAE 2800 it corrected that and made them sound a whole lot better!

Sometimes it's necessary to have some sort of tone control when you are unable to control the room acoustics for proper sound. In real everyday life type rooms it's hard to have a perfect sounding system no matter what you do. So that's where a GOOD EQ or tone control comes in.


Hope this helps!

 

I have one of these SAE 2800 EQ...., posted on November 28, 2014 at 07:48:07
Cougar
Audiophile

Posts: 4593
Location: SoCal
Joined: June 25, 2001
 and they are great. Upgraded/modded mine and it sounds even better than a stock one!

This is the only Tone control device I will use in my system.

the SAE 2800's come up on ebay every now and then.

 

RE: Tone Controls, posted on November 28, 2014 at 10:10:33
abs1
 At first I was under the impression that this thread was about the use of the old style analog tone controls and the fact that they have disappeared from much of the equipment that's been on the market for quite a long while. I don't miss them, because I discovered (a long time ago) that while they can correct for some room problems it's best to fix the room issues first before adding any additional things in the signal path. My music system is fully analog and has no tone controls and I intend it to stay that way.

Now it seems that this discussion has morphed into the subject of Digital Signal Processing (DSP) which is an entirely different ballgame. I employ properly calibrated Audyssey XT PRO in my separate 9.2 channel HT room and find it invaluable for enjoying the movie experience - but it ain't analog and suffers from what most analog lovers complain about when they compare analog vs. digital.

These two methods of "sound shaping" or signal processing and the reasons for their use should not be confused.

Cheers,
Al

 

RE: I Have a SAE 2800 parametric EQ...., posted on November 28, 2014 at 11:55:24
Cameraman
Audiophile

Posts: 396
Location: 33701
Joined: September 25, 2011
 Dynamite I used to drool over that unit..........
Thanx

 

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