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Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland...

80.218.199.14
Posted on October 19, 2014 at 14:55:10
morricab
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 The best sounding room by far was the room with all Ypsilon gear, including the speakers.

This system had it all, dynamics, transparency, even and scarily accurate tone and that indescribable feeling that absolutely nothing is being missed from the recording.

It was a digital system with their very expensive tube and transformer loaded NOS DAC and transport feeding their "baby" integrated amplifier the Phaeton, which is a hybird with transformer interstage coupling.

The speakers were Ypsilon design and a three-way of moderate height but very deep with a a 10 inch bass driver, a 6 inch mid and a ribbon tweeter of their own making. The mid and bass were from the former Skanning brand (now called something else) out of Denmark.

I have NEVER heard a more or less conventional speaker do dynamics like i heard from this system...only some horns I have heard do it better but they mostly don't capture what the rest of this system did...WOW!

IMO, Ypsilon is playing truly in the uppermost echelon of high end electronics and now speakers.

 

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Would love to see photos if you have any (nt), posted on October 19, 2014 at 17:34:05
4everyoung
 Thanks

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 19, 2014 at 17:35:54
fantja
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 Thanks! for sharing.
Some outstanding gear is coming out of that corner of the world.

Any cd/sacd player that impressed?

 

off to google!, posted on October 19, 2014 at 17:49:35
gd
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 I've read you opinions for years (with pleasure and sense), so will pay more than a bit of attention.

Gregg

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 00:08:13
Disbeliever
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 Were Goldmund JOB exhibiting their JOB 225 amplifier ? as for valves/tubes they are antiques. I would not buy any valve based component. I do like antiques but not antique valves.

 

I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 01:40:29
morricab
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 However, it is also why you will never hear what is possible in reproduction...I am quite sure you have never heard reproduced sound as good as what Ypsilon was producing last weekend.

Job/Goldmund were not exhibiting.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 01:41:54
morricab
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 THe Ypsilon transport/DAC was the best as far as I can tell from the context of the rest of the system. I believe it is a NOS DAC with tubes and a lot of transformers :).

 

RE: I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 03:45:02
Ozzy
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 Agreed. If he is not listening to tubes, he is not hearing all the music. I feel sorry for those guys.

Oz



Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 03:58:15
Disbeliever
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 I gave up tubes 20 years ago, in the past I have owned the Quad 2 valve amps Radford STA 15 & Radford SC-22 hybrid pre-amp Leak TL12 valve amp not as good as Quad. also Bailey Bros & Beard valve amps. Would not give any of them House room these days. Tube amps have an enriched sound divorced from reality plus other problems.

 

RE: I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 04:12:50
Ozzy
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 Modern tube amps. I'm not talking about stuff produced 30 or more years ago. I see I'm wasting my time here......

Oz


Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill

 

RE: I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 05:03:58
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 Most tube amps follow the old Mullard & Williamson designs. An engineer tube amp constructor tells me he still gets the same old problems with tube matching etc.Interestingly he has bought the Goldmund JOB 225 amp which I auditioned on Saturday. The amp sounds extremely good especially mid & top not quite so good baas as it only has a 225 VA transformer for claimed 125 wpc into 8 ohms. However I was very impressed with the amp sound , not being a deep bass addict I have ordered one, it wIl be interesting to find out how it sounds with my speakers in my room.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 06:28:33
Peter Breuninger
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 Here is the Ypsilon system in Munich.

 

I wonder if Roger Federer uses that stuff? nt, posted on October 20, 2014 at 07:35:39
tinear
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 d

 

Nice, posted on October 20, 2014 at 08:45:45
Awe-d-o-file
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 I'm not surprised based on the circuit design and the price. $30K for the DAC. Interesting note from their CD Transport info which has both standard analog out (so it's a CDP too), digital out and a 5 pin analog out


""We strongly recommend the use of the 5-pin output with DAC-100 for optimum performance. It is our belief that transmitting audio in the digital domain (SPDIF),even discrete such as I2S format, has its imperfections and adds a certain character to the sound. The frequency of bit clock and data bit is too high for transferring the signal in a transparent way.""

AND

"When this (5 pin) input is used with CDT-100 the digital part of the DAC is disabled and is powered off. Only the analog section is used. With CDT-100 we strongly recommend the use of this input for optimum performance.""


So very oddly we have what is called a transport and DAC where the analog out of the transport is used and the digital part of the DAC is off when connected to their mating transport. It doesn't get weirder than that. I'd love to hear it.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

He continues..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 08:50:08
E-Stat
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RE: I wonder if Roger Federer uses that stuff? nt, posted on October 20, 2014 at 08:55:53
Awe-d-o-file
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 The products are Greek, the show was in Switzerland......it's all Greek to me!


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 09:32:05
genungo
 ... do not sound completely different from the "best" or most desirable SS amps - not that I have owned or can afford the "best" of anything in hifi, but this is what I can gather from the info available to me.

The best gear combines "listenability" with fairly low distortion and miniscule quantities of other undesirable sonic artifacts. Here's an example of a fairly expensive tube amp that I would not mind owning...

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 09:52:38
morricab
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 Hi Peter,

It was basically the same system as in Munich (I heard it there too). But it sounded even better probably because of a superior room and they also played a bit less loud :).

The new Phaeton integrated is really a sweet machine from what I heard. It seems utterly transparent to the sources...makes me eager to hear the bigger models!

 

RE: I know, you have said it 1000 times, posted on October 20, 2014 at 10:12:26
morricab
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 What makes you think there is anything really new in transistor designs? Jim Bongiorno was fond of saying that there was nothing new done after his GAS Ampzilla!

A lot of designs don't use Williamson (SETs for example) but even then there is a lot of room for variations and completely different approaches.

Pretty crappy power supply in that amp it seems...barely enough for the job...perhaps even a bit underspecified.


I personally wouldn't touch that amp based on the descriptions given by Srajan in 6 moons (takes a bit to figure out what he is saying though). Now that I know it is an inadequate design I really wouldn't go for it.

 

What was really disappointing was Audio Note, posted on October 20, 2014 at 10:30:02
morricab
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 The Swiss dealer for Audio Note (UK not Kondo) had an all Audio Note system that was using the DAC 4, Meishu Silver signature phono, a TT1 turntable but with the mid level arm and lowest level IO cartridge. Speakers were the AN E something or other but with hemp driver and silver voice coils and an outboard crossover.

The speakers were spread quite wide apart and near the corners so bass was pretty strong but also pretty boomy. Image focus was nearly non-existent and dynamics were somewhat subdued...especially compared to the Ypsilon system. To color was pretty nice but the coherence of the whole sound was only average and the transparency was likewise mediocre. I thought I could hear the box interferring with the sound and this could have been affecting resolution and transparency.

I wanted to believe that the Meishu and DAC 4 are capable of much more because they seem to be as well made inside as Ypsilon and use a lot of supposedly high quality iron (the output transformers in the Meishu were quite large for a 300B amp) but it never got off the ground sonically.


Overall, it was smooth, easy with full (overly?) bass and nice musically pleasing tone but not a sound like the real thing...this you had to go hear the Ypsilon room to get. Maybe people are looking for this kind of sound as it is somewhat relaxing?

I was surprised because Peter Q. is (in)famous for his white paper on picking a system that maximizes contrast between recordings as being more correct and in fact I found that this rather expensive AN system did not do that very well because of its inherent colorations. The Ypsilon system was VERY good at this without losing musicality (very difficult from my experience).

 

RE: What was really disappointing was Audio Note, posted on October 20, 2014 at 10:54:45
Awe-d-o-file
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 Did both rooms have footers and other vibration damping, HQ cables and any AC treatment and room treatment that was similar? Do you think the AN room might have at least come close with better setup? (speaker location)


Thanks again


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 20, 2014 at 23:05:06
Disbeliever
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 I would not be interested in the Ypsilon amplifier especially as it contains antique tubes, very expensive if I heard correctly $25K, 60,000 euros very doubtful if it can be switched on/off directly from a switched UK mains wall socket without noises through speakers etc.. Ridiculously heavy for a 110 wpc into 8 ohms and absurd bright display light that is very distracting. DF should be measured at 40Hz.

 

RE: What was really disappointing was Audio Note, posted on October 21, 2014 at 01:43:48
morricab
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 In terms of coloration, I think not, it really seemed to me that the speakers could not get out of their own way. I have yet to hear an AN speaker setup that came close to what they are supposedly able to do. I have heard them with much better electronics (higher up the AN food chain) and it wasn't all that much better.

It also seemed very laid back dynamically. The bass would likely improve away from the corners but not be quite as deep anymore.

I can't imagine it coming up to the level I heard with the Ypsilon system though.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 01:52:01
morricab
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 tubes are only for the input/driver section, which even your addled brain should realize will work very well indeed as triodes are in fact far more linear than transistors to begin with. For small signal amplification it is perfectly appropriate.

I don't disagree with you regarding the price...it is pretty steep for the amplifier. Soncially it delivers and I can almost guarantee you it is better sounding than that underspecified JOB you bought. The weight is largely due to a sufficient power supply. No bass issues there ;-).

The appearance...as always...is a matter of taste so you can think what you want.

I am sure the damping factor of the amplifier is more than adequate...there is no correlation between DF and bass quality anyway.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 02:17:25
morricab
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 I would like to give the Wyetech Sapphire a test drive as well. It is not dissimilar to the JJ 322 I am using on my Ref 3as at the moment.

I would; however, disagree with you regarding the sound of the best tube, hybrid and SS designs. They have not, to my ears really converged.


So, when we say best SS designs I assume we mean some of the following:
darTZeel
Soulution
Krell Evo
Constellation
Vitus
D'Agostino
FM Acoustics(?)
Devialet (Class D candidate?)
Pass Labs
Ayre

For the best Tubes I would put forward some on this list:
Lamm
Ypsilon (they also make pure tube designs)
Wyetech
Kondo
Wavac
Shindo
Allnic
AN uk (top models)
Border Patrol
New Audio Frontiers
Ayon
Atmasphere
Joule Electra
NAT
BAT

For best Hybrids I would put forward some on this list:
KR Audio (yes they are hybrids)
Lamm
Ypsilon
Siltech
Sphinx Project 16 (defunct but from Siltech designer)
AcousticPlan
NAT Symbiosis SE (now out of production)
Blue Circle Audio (BC2.1 now out of production)
Pathos
Robert Koda


While the ones on the tube list and the hybrid list often sound similiar, I can tell you that the ones on the SS list do not sound close to the tube or hybrid list.

The SS amps miss the liquidity, midrange palpability, tonal texture and dynamic expressiveness of the best on the other lists. They miss it in a big way...the closest I heard might be the Vitus amps but I guess the Pass First Watts are truly the closest (I haven't heard them though).

The sound of the Living Voice system in Munich would not had half the realism it had if they had swapped out the Kondo gear for Vitus or darTZeel, or Pass. Just like that.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 04:12:00
genungo
 Wow, what a list.

I can say that I like the sound of the Decware tube gear I've heard, as well as the Pass Labs Aleph. Unfortunately, I have not heard any of the First Watt stuff. Both Decware and Pass seem to strike a nice balance between grace and composure, liquidity and solidity. Of course, so much of what we hear has to do with amp/speaker interactions.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 05:27:21
Disbeliever
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 an electronics engineer says: Transistors v tube/valves Both devices have a curved transfer response, but with transistors you can create circuit blocks that will reduce distortion to vanishingly small percentages, this can not be done the same way with valves.. In summary then, valves are operating over a much wider voltage range than transistors and do not better individually than about 0.2% distortion with current negative feedback and so with the usual valve line up with a pentode first stage, producing a more curved transfer characteristic than a triode, following the triode phase splitters and pentode output devices the best distortion is about 0.1% -O.2% as in the D.T. Williamson amplifier, many designs out there do somewhat poorer than this but this does not seem to put valve lovers off the kind of distortion that seems to be preferred. Transistor amps tend to be ten times better than this in distortion terms generally speaking but the distortion artifacts of both types of amplifiers are very often of differing harmonic generation, hence valve lovers are taking kindly to the distortions generated by this style of amplifier.... As I have posted many times I would not touch a valve amp (too hot ha.) or a hybrid amp with a barge pole, however others say it sounds. In fact I did use a hybrid pre -amp for many years until I realised the sound was coloured.

 

Wouldn't he love my system?, posted on October 21, 2014 at 07:07:53
Dave Pogue
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 Tubed SET monoblock amps
Tubed linestage
Tubed phonostage
Tubed SACD/CD player with tubed power supply
Tubed tape head preamp

Currently 29 tubes in all. And everything except the SET amps dating from the 21st century.

The poor man would likely have a coronary :-)

 

LOL! , posted on October 21, 2014 at 07:24:48
E-Stat
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 I only have 24 tubes in the upstairs system. :)

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 13:24:38
morricab
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 The engineer didn't say HOW the transistors get low distortion...it is with copious amounts of negative feedback! Read Crowhurst and others about the effects that has on subjective sound.

Your numbers, especially for preamps, are way off...there are a number of good tube preamps on the market that will produce less than 0.2% distortion and even a goodly number of tube amps that will do so at low power.

Low distortion is a red herring anyway when pursued with the wrong strategy to reduce it (i.e. lots of negative feedback).

Triodes are MUCH more linear than any transistor...its fact not speculation. Combining more and more non-linear devices does not make a circuit magically more linear. It is ONLY through the use of negative feedback that it a complex transistor circuit can be made to behave.

Which hybrid did you use? Give names or stop pretending.

Enjoy your underdesigned JOB...I am sure you will tire of having weak bass due to a weak power supply.

 

RE: Wouldn't he love my system?, posted on October 21, 2014 at 13:34:32
morricab
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 Mine too.

SET power amp (JJ 322 or NAT Symbiosis, ok it has ONE MOSFET per channel)
Tube DAC (Monarchy M24) no transistors or opamps in this DAC for the main circuit.
Tube phonostage with tube power supply (Silvaweld SWH650)
No preamp or passive (NAT none, JJ passive).

Odeon Horn speakers (La Boheme) or Reference 3a Master Control MMC

Full chain with DAC is 4 tubes only (JJ) or 3 tubes + 1 MOSFET (NAT)
Full chain with Phonostage is 6 tubes (JJ) or 5 tubes + 1 MOSFET (NAT)

This is not counting power supply tubes or transistors.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 21, 2014 at 14:27:41
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 I will pass on your comments to the electronics engineer. The hybrid preamp long long time ago was a Radford SC-22, I believe the first hybrid. I have criticised the weak power supply of the Job 225, IMO 225 VA is insufficient, I will get it modified if necessary.

 

RE: Wouldn't he love my system?, posted on October 22, 2014 at 01:04:19
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 A UK Pink Fish Forum member F1 ENG says I am using my JOB 225 with matching preamp into Goldmund Epilog 1 & 2. The bass is typically Goldmund, clear, deep and unexagerated, overall sound very similar to Devialet, first amp to match Mimesis 29.4s. My power amp sequence went Hafler DH 220 > Musical Fidelity A370 > Krell 200B > Spectral DMA 180 > Goldmund Mimesis 29.4 > Devialet D-Premier.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 03:25:41
morricab
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 "I have criticised the weak power supply of the Job 225, IMO 225 VA is insufficient, I will get it modified if necessary.
"

IMO, that product is a fail for that reason...even if it sounds good, which I doubt it does.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 03:27:49
morricab
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 You didn't really answer the question though. I asked what evidence you have that there is a convergence in the sound of high end amps of different designs...I hear no such convergence.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 04:08:52
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 The amp arrived today ,just set it up, from switch on it sounds better than my old stereo amp from cold, will have to see how much it improves over the next few days.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 04:11:22
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 Do not understand your question, what on earth are you saying ?

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 08:40:45
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 For Morricab:

I refer you to my previous answer to your statement 7th April 2014. I answered you fairly but you decided that Geddes et al overode any other arguments.. What Geddes has discovered is neither new or unusual but is however contextual. So I will make a suggestion and you work it out for yourself and not let others do it for you. The music you listen to has gone through many stages, one which is the control desk. This has many op amps.I.C's using bucket loads of negative feedback. These devices are for the most part unconditionally stable even at unity gain, that is with 100% feedback. many WELL designed amplifiers are using a similar architecture as the op amp and the feedback used does other things than just reduce distortion, we know about crossover distortion so run the output in a few watts of class A before driven into AB or B this is all very basic, you seem to want to take matters out of context to prove your position, like the assumption that valves are not used with negative feedback, they are, regularly but in the pre-amp you cite uses current negative feedback that is undecoupled cathode reesistors and often with global feedback. Some very good pre-amps like Audio Research use hybrid configurations with transistors where this would enhance the overall performance. You can readily find adverts for single Triode O/P amplifiers which regularly exhibit up to 10% distortion at full power and around 5-7% normally, yes I know sounds just like dads old radiogram easy on the ear, but that is also because the frequency response is limited to not much above 10-12 kHz and is rich in second harmonics much favoured by the ear... I suggest you look at the time Geddes wrote his papers, today we have exceptionally fast transistor devices and Mosfets which enable amplifiers to operate up to much higher frequencies without the kind of difficulties that Geddes was referring to. Stating that feed back is bad shows a kind of stubborness, you must check your references in the right context. You, with respect are not the only man in the world that has good hearing as if I have even to mention this. Humble

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 22, 2014 at 23:22:07
A.Wayne
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 What, no VTL morricab ...:)

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 04:16:05
genungo
 First of all, I can see that it might be helpful to clarify what we mean when we say "Solid State sound" or "tube sound". I'd say that SS gear sounds tends to sound more dynamic and powerful, but less colorful than tube gear. The sound that we ascribe to each probably has something to do with the mixture or ratio of different types of distortion components that each presents.

SS gear transmits, or allows for, a mixture of linearities and distortions in playback. Tube gear does likewise, but in a slightly different way.

As I've said, I have some limited listening experience that would seem to confirm the idea of the "convergence" of these two slightly different presentations. I'm also somewhat trustful of others who have said the same thing. I'm sure you're aware that some people have said they can hear little or no difference at all between different amplifiers, and while I would not go as far as to say that I cannot hear any difference at all between a decent tube amp and a decent SS one I might assume, as other have assumed, that as certain types of distortion components in tube or SS amps are minimized the aforementioned "convergence" begins to materialize.

MY own DNA Sonett is a Class A SET tube zero feedback headphone amp and it's an excellent case in point, for me at least. The Sonett is as quiet and as "neutral" (I know, I know - "neutral" is a subjective term...) sounding as any SS amp I've owned so far, even more so in some ways. I can highly recommend this amp to all those who have grown tired of "syrupy, sweet sounding" tube amps or "cool and clinical" SS amps. I would say it sounds like the perfect hybridization of SS and tubes, at least to my ears, and yet it is not a hybrid amp. Another amp that delivers what I might call a similar sort of *hybrid sound* is the Sugden Headmaster, and yet it is a pure SS design. The little Decware monoblocks I used to own seemed to combine what might be called "clean SS sound" with "tube vivacity". Pass Labs is due to release a SS headphone amp this year, and I'm willing to bet that it too might strike a fine balance.

As I've owned or listened to tube and SS amps over the years, the sum of my experience has indicated a thing or two about "convergence" in amp sound. I know for a fact that tubes do not have to sound overly "warm", "tubey", "distorted", etc... SS does not have to sound "cold", "clinical", "sterile", etc... Others would agree with me and the evidence that I'm aware of at this point in time suggests that good sound comes from many design paths. Different amps are not necessarily *good* in the same ways but good ones do tend to "agree" with each other to a great extent in the most fundamental ways. Differences do exist but the better amps sound more alike than than different. The better ones, IMO, have a tendency to get out of their own way so that you can concentrate on the music rather than the sound.

How do you define "tube sound"? How do you define "Solid State sound"? I'd say that there is significant evidence of "convergence" to be found in amp sound nowadays. If you claim to hear something different than that, if that is truly how you've heard things, then all I can say is "More power to you!". I am not you and you are not me.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 08:43:14
morricab
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 Not the ones I have heard, sorry.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 08:49:22
morricab
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 Well, since the question wasn't really posed to you...if you don't understand read it again. Genugo was claiming a convergence of sound quality between top SS and top tube gear...something I am sure you will disagree with and probably one of the only things we can agree upon is that there is not a convergence...

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 09:22:07
morricab
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 Is your headphone amp OTL? If it is then it is not surprising that it doesn't sound like a typical tube amp.

That being said OTL amplifiers don't sound like typical tube amps for two main reasons: 1) They don't have output transformers and 2) They often use a fair amount of negative feedback.

Typical push pull EL34 or 6550/KT88 tube amps usually commit two or three sins: 1) underrated output transformers that create a lot of distortion in the bass, which of course means high order harmonics that run right through the midrange and create a "tubey", "warm" or "syrupy" sound. 2) While tube amps cannot use the same amount of negative feedback as transistors, many companies will use 10db or more and this has the effect of damaging the high frequencies, sometimes creating a "bright" or "glassy" sound. 3) The driver stage is inadequate and doesn't split the phase perfectly and you get quite a bit of distortion when driven hard. Probably contributes to a lack of transparency.

Quite a few well known amps commit at least two of these sins and get a sound that might be associated with "sterotypical" tube sound.

Solid state amps typically have multiple stages with both a lot of nested and global negative feedback. The effect is quite damaging both in terms of high frequencies and perceived tonality. Also, it definitely appears to have an affect on perceived dynamics. It can make bass sound overly controlled as well.

Some designers have done away with the stages and feedback (or at least most of it) and get amps that are design-wise very similar to simple triode circuits (like Pass First Watt or Telurium Q, which i have not heard). They have done this in an attempt to get closer to a more natural sound with their amps...in their opinions of course.

The net result are amps that in some ways sound a bit like OTLs and in some ways sound a bit like SETs but in some very important ways do not sound like either. It is those hard to describe areas of perception related to dimensionality, micro dynamics, tonal dynamics, by which I mean the change in the tone of an instrument based on how loud it is played, Image dimensionality and density and even macro dynamics.

Hybrids are getting closer but that is because they have quite a bit of tube there already and it is not a guarantee which will dominate the sound.

The harmonic distortion patterns for tube amp designs often differ greatly from transistor amp designs...even the most modern ones, so it is no surprise the sound isn't really converging.

I think what you mean is that the grossest coloration of both types have been largely removed by the best makers and I would generally agree with this but it doesn't mean that they really sound so similiar...just a bit less different. Both can be enjoyable in the short run but in the long run the character of even the best SS amps wears thin for me so it is then obvious the difference.

A good example was this show. There was a room with Magico Q1 and Solution cd player and integrated amp (ugliest damn gear I have ever seen just about). THis is highly touted stuff with a price to match. First listen was that it was smooth, refined with plenty of detail; however, tonal palette was muted and kind of grayish (no dynamic tonality or shading to speak of). Highs were restrained so a decent soundstage was possible (a big advance in SS has been here I think). Dynamics were sort of dead...it seemed like there were swings but you didn't feel it...it was rather muted and detached. All-in-all the sound was polite and refined but sort of antiseptic and bland.

Even worse was the JMlab with Naim...a worse combination is hard to find. Analytical sounding speakers with dry as a desert electronics. THe sound SAT at the speakers with no sense of air at all. It was like the driest most tasteless champagne you can imagine where afterwards all you can think about is "give me a glass of water!"

The Audio Note room tended to lean in the direction you would probably call classically "tubey" and IMO it was as well. However, I think in this case it fell more down to the speakers clouding up the sound than the electronics...but I am not sure without trying their gear with speakers I know to be revealing.

What stunned about the Ypsilon room was that it sounded like tubes in the sense of space, inner detial, dynamics etc. but tonally it was just...real...not ss cool or tube warm just right and with the right tonal scaling...spot on. With different speakers maybe it wouldn't be quite right (Cheever believes that the distortion the gear is producing has to be right for the volume being listened at so it also depends on the load/sensitivity of the speaker being used). With their own speakers it was bang on.

IMO, tubes get some sonic aspects like you would hear live far better than transistors and it is why there is likely not to be a true convergence anytime soon. I note though that you are not using a transistor headphone amp ;-)

 

RE: "Not using a transistor headphone amp", posted on October 23, 2014 at 10:30:58
genungo
 Wrong! I am currently using a transistor headphone amp, just as I always have. I always insist on owning both SS and tube gear together and at once. The Keces HA-171 SS headphone amp/preamp I currently own provides it's own unique listening perspective, but in the overall sense, it sounds more similar to than different from the DNA Sonett SET tube amp I also use. I also own the Headroom Buda SS headphone amp, although it is not currently being used by me.

When I say "listening perspective", I'm mostly thinking about relative "forwardness" and relative "distance". One amp seems to put me closer to the music, the other seems to let me sit farther away from it. I've never been one to get stuck on a certain type of listening perspective, but I do insist on using gear that seems to move out of the way of the music as much as possible - even though such a thing is not entirely possible. I choose my headphones and my amplification based on the type of music I'm listening to, for the slight edge one combination of gear provides over the other combination in a given circumstance.

Back on topic, it seems as if you're saying that tubes and Solid State, while never sounding exactly the same, do not necessarily sound completely different either. Obviously, I would tend to agree with that idea. I still think that a significant amount of "convergence" is possible when tube and SS amp designers try very hard to compete with one another.

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 11:45:55
Inmate51
 There is so much back-and-forth here that it makes my head spin.

Do any of you guys design amplifiers?

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 11:48:05
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 MCab,

Cant agree, Both are equal in their deficiency against real live reference. SS captures power, speed and immediacy of live music better than toob amplfiers , by a long shot, toobs tend to capture the size or due to a lack of a better phrase, the "meat" on instruments, vocals, space, better than SS, but slow and limp by comparision.

Where I do find tooobs can excell over SS is in the pre-amp stage , Toob pre's can match or better their SS counterparts, so I'm for Hybrids as the way forward if choosing one topology.


Regards..

 

RE: Went to a hifi show today in Switzerland..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 15:33:25
Inmate51
 Given the back-and-forth, a breath of fresh air would be if Curl, Hansen, or Pass would chime in. On the other hand, they might just be enjoying the show and getting some more popcorn and Cognac.

:)

 

And, speaker/amp matching..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 16:02:19
genungo
 I wonder how many people get the wrong impression of an amp after hearing a sub-optimal matchup? Those of us who own amps with variable impedance switching or multiple impedance taps know what can happen in a sub-optimal matchup.

 

RE: And, speaker/amp matching..., posted on October 23, 2014 at 16:29:51
A.Wayne
Audiophile

Posts: 2527
Location: Front row center
Joined: November 30, 2011
 Its pretty easy to determine impedance tap to use once you know z-min.

 

RE: And, speaker/amp matching..., posted on October 24, 2014 at 00:44:26
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 My experience is that this doesn't seem to matter very much. One amp I had sounded best on the 8 ohm tap regardless of the speaker impedance. Another one seems to work better on the 4 ohm tap for one speaker even though that speaker doesn't drop below 6 ohms. That same amp works best at 8 ohms on a similar speaker and 8 ohms on my horns.

When I had Acoustats, despite dropping to 2 ohms in the bass and 2 ohms in the highs, the 8 ohm tap sounded always the best with that speaker regardless of the amp.

Go figure. Matchin is a great place to start but I would advocate simply trying an listening to determine the right tap.

 

RE: The very "best" tube amps - or, the ones I'd most like to own..., posted on October 24, 2014 at 00:54:42
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Generally I agree that both are on opposite sides of "true" sound but I don't agree that they are equal in their deficiency and this is because of human tolerance to different kinds of distortions is not equal. I would argue that the kinds of high order higher frequency distortion one encounters regularly with SS is more damaging to realism and long term listening pleasure. The biggest effect that the tube distortions seem to cause is a lack of apparent transparency and some tonal sameness that leads to somewhat boring sound.

The best of both minimize these traits but not to inexistence; however, I find that the best tube gear gets far closer to what I hear live with the right recordings than any SS. The colorations from SS are too damaging IMO.

For preamps, I have heard only one competitive SS preamp to the best tube designs...the Lyra Connisseur preamp. That is a good one. Otherwise, only tubes deliver SOTA preamp sound IMO. I haven't heard the SS preamp from Robert Koda though...

 

RE: "Not using a transistor headphone amp", posted on October 24, 2014 at 00:57:58
morricab
Distributor or Rep

Posts: 9175
Location: switzerland
Joined: April 1, 2005
 Well you mentioned a tube one so...

The further/closer thing is probably more circuit dependent than device dependent.

As I said simply before, the fundamental differences in the device and circuit topologies means that the two will never fully converge. At first listen, it might even seem so but longer listening always reveals that the basic characters of the devices are quite different...only an audiophile might care but it is there nonetheless.

 

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