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Cables used by manufacturers

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Posted on September 25, 2014 at 21:52:41
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 When a manufacturer builds/tests/voices a piece of equipment, he must
use power cords and interconnects and, in the case of power amps, speaker
cables. Yet, to my knowledge, no manufacturer discloses info about which
cables he uses. I think this would be a valuable bit of knowledge for
consumers to have.

Further, when a manufacturer voices an amplifier, he must obviously use
a source - cd, sacd, vinyl, tape, whatever - or maybe even more than one
source. I think it would be valuable to know what source equipment the
manufacturer used, and the associated cables.

And it might even be nice to know what source equipment a manufacturer
recommends, assuming that the manufacturer does not manufacture souces.
And of course, it would be nice to know what speakers the manufacturer
used in voicing his components.

Perhaps we ought to start asking these questions of manufacturers.



Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

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RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 26, 2014 at 05:15:49
jsm71
Audiophile

Posts: 1123
Location: Cincinnati OH
Joined: June 16, 2011
 I'm not sure that it matters what associated components a designer uses. Both my speaker and amp manufacturer are small companies and the designer in both cases make and sell their own cables. I bought the power cord for my amp from the amp designer, and speaker cable from my speaker designer. Both seem to work quite well. I've had many discussions about source gear with my speaker designer and for him any source gear can be used as long as it is a constant between engineering changes.

Maximizing cables and specific pieces of gear are important to one who is building a system, but manufacturers focus on improving their products.

 

Some manufacturers do hype their own cables..., posted on September 26, 2014 at 07:13:06
genungo
 .., and/or try to sell complete, synergistic systems. Others will make recommendations for aftermarket cables. The smaller, more esoteric companies are more likely than large ones to make cable recommendations IME.

The cables that many manufacturers include with their gear are often cheap, generic things that don't add much to a component's retail cost. Aftermarket cables can yield noticeable sonic improvements that are mostly associated with better, tighter connections and more effective shielding, IMO.

 

Your stated premise is not entirely accurate, posted on September 26, 2014 at 07:41:39
John Marks
Manufacturer

Posts: 7794
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of R.I.
Joined: April 23, 2000
 You personally might not be aware of some of the data points you mention, but it is not as though all manufacturers of today (and yesterday) have kept this stuff under Double Secret Probation.

Perhaps they just don't usually shout it from the rooftops from fear of potential customers jumping to silly conclusions... .

# # #

The most celebrated and controversial amplifier/cable pairing as far as I know has always been Spectral amps and MIT cables. Indeed, as far as I know, use of cables other than MIT voids the warranty on Spectral amps, because MIT's filter network also functions to protect the amps from ultrasonic oscillation, or at least that is what has been claimed to me by others.

The Spectral/MIT thing has been discussed at length over the past decades in TAS.

Ayre not only recommends Cardas cables; they have Cardas make cables for Ayre on an OEM basis. That is no secret.

Shahinian amps are voiced around Plinius amplifiers, and under Pliny the Former (the old regime), Plinius amps were voiced with Shahinian loudspeakers; but I totally doubt that that is the case now.

I have been told that Wilson Audio Specialties has a storeroom full of power amps that they have bought so that they can check a loudspeaker design with a representative sample of the amps their customers are likely to have, but as far as I know that is more for issues of driveability and efficiency than for the sound.

Except for circuit designs with special needs, by which I mean Spectral, I think that you are probably overstating the importance of knowing things like which sources, interconnect cables, and amplifiers e.g. a loudspeaker manufacturer uses, and here is why.

Unless you are talking about a direct-sales only loudspeaker, once a loudspeaker design is completed, the product is shipped out to retailers, and if you have five retailers, they probably have 15 different amplifiers that will get used or at least tried on a new speaker line or a new model. Unless the loudspeaker lives in a cave and does not have a telephone, he will get feedback (and he should seek out feedback) from his retailers. "What do you think?" "What have you tried it with?" "Any areas for improvement?"

And then, even if the speaker is sold direct only and was developed using budget-conscious equipment, when it comes to me for review I might try it on as many as three or four amplifiers, and if JA measures it, it will probably get driven by two, and whatever happens, including "oopsies," we report back about it to you, the readers.

When I was writing for Steinway Piano's publication "Listen," I suggested, not in so many words, that Harbeth's P3ESR BBC shoebox monitor speaker and Luxman's Neo-Classico low-power tube amp were a match made in Heaven, and later both importers involved commented that they had already heard the same from dealers they shared.

The point of that story being that what actually WORKS in the field is much more important than what was used during a product's development. I believe the Neo-Classico amp had less than half of Harbeth's minimum recommended power. So what? Within its limits, it sounded sublime.

I will leave the last word to a dead white male:

Don't waste yourself in rejection, nor bark against the bad, but chant the beauty of the good.

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Ciao,

jm


 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 26, 2014 at 08:16:42
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...most manufactures use multiple pieces of equipment and cables to voice their products.

Otherwise they would have to recommend a complete system to go with it for it to sound like it's supposed to.

But the beauty of this is you get to match your own equipment and cables to fine tune it like you want it to sound.

 

Synergy?, posted on September 26, 2014 at 08:30:28
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Come on they can't do that, they'd eliminate buyers by saying we used this cable if a prospective buyer doesn't like it. There are many other similar scenarios with what you pose. That doesn't even take into account all the people that would say well since they use that cable they are in bed with them for financial reasons and on and on. (Right J.A.?) It's all about synergy and that is one of the most important things I've learned over the years. Reading posts here about product implementation has also helped on this subject. Another thing is when you see enough people saying similar things about a piece of gear (good or bad) it can have merit too.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Your stated premise is not entirely accurate, posted on September 26, 2014 at 08:32:42
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Lots of good info, thanks.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

A little more, posted on September 26, 2014 at 12:18:45
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Demian Martin of Spectral was an associate of Bruce Brisson of MIT,. Bruce designed the first set of cables for Monster, BTW utilizing the three gauge wire construction. IIRC Martin later was hired by Monster.
Underfunded, Brisson designed the cables for Monster with the proviso that he could also market it under his MIT nae and also under the Spectral name: same cable different labels.

Spectral issues were that the amplifiers, in particular, had super extended frequency response: basically as one designer pointed out, DC to light. For some speaker designs this was an issue, Particularly so with electrostatics which can have their impedance drop to below one ohm at the upper frequencies.

That being said, Marks is correct. Larger manufacturers will have various differing components in their labs to assess their own products. I knew Counterpoint had at least six different speakers to evaluate their amps and would rotate certain designs as the market would change.

Electronic manufacturers will often keep very difficult to drive speaker designs just to judge the stability of their product. This was particularly true when Apogee was popular and in existence. They required a very high current drive amplifier and at their introduction few manufacturers had such a product: ML, Krell, Sumo. This actually forced many manufacturers to redesign their product line.

Most manufacturers will NOT state what they use for fear of seeming to endorse certain products. In fact, when Rowland elected to distribute Avalon Speakers, the sales of both dropped as consumers began to feel (unjustified) that Avalons didn't sound good without Rowland and vice versa. Same thing occurred when CJ bought out the Sonographe speaker company


FWIW

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 26, 2014 at 17:42:23
stehno
Manufacturer

Posts: 739
Location: Oregon
Joined: November 8, 2001
 If mfg'ers did routinely share such info the masses would to all kinds of conclusions, some good and certainly plenty of not so good.

You think you'll experience some fabulous revelation that will give you the inside dope to a more musical component?

But what if the revelation you experience by acquiring such knowledge is that the mfg'ers are shooting in the dark as much or maybe even more so than the consumer?

As one rocket scientist once said when asked about sending a rocket to the moon, "You just point and shoot! It's not rocket science."

 

Good stuff, John. Thank you. *, posted on September 26, 2014 at 18:48:07
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 13973
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 27, 2014 at 05:22:28
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Unless the company is Audio Note then there isn't likely to be any constant from the cartridge to the speaker voice coil. In terms of cabling caps resisters soldering material anyway.

If you don't count cables then you can usually look to show reportsand see what is matched to what for a pretty good idea.

It's also good to hear a complete system so you have an idea as the sonic goal of the company as a dealer may match a speaker say to a Roksan amp source that Roksan wouldn't be caught dead using.

You at least get the basis for what they believe to be the best sound quality. Ie; by hearing a complete Roksan system you are hearing the Roksan sound or their voicing.

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 27, 2014 at 14:20:12
fantja
Audiophile

Posts: 15518
Location: Alabama
Joined: September 11, 2010
 Mike-

I would start w/ the Audio shows. It is always interesting to see & hear electronics mated w/ cables /cords.

Second, investigate the brand(s) of electronics cable companies use in their testing/listening rooms. Example, Transparent and Wilson.

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 28, 2014 at 03:38:04
middleground
 It should tell you how important such things are.

Bring back the stereo console!

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 28, 2014 at 04:03:09
middleground
 "But the beauty of this is you get to match your own equipment and cables to fine tune it like you want it to sound."

As awful as that sound might be.

Freedom! Freedom! Freedom!

 

RE: Some manufacturers do hype their own cables..., posted on September 28, 2014 at 04:09:30
middleground
 Tighter connections?

Tighter than what?

Damn those electrons!

 

RE: Tighter connections..., posted on September 28, 2014 at 06:59:44
genungo
 Firm connections provide better electrical contact and better power delivery than loose connections. If you don't believe me, loosen up the battery connections on your vehicle and see what happens.

Better cables and better cable connectors usually provide better, tighter connections IME. Tighter connections provide better power delivery and better signal transmission. You can hear the difference (or at least I can).

 

RE: Modern Stereo Console, posted on September 28, 2014 at 09:20:02
genungo
 Here...

 

The smart ones defer that question ..., posted on September 28, 2014 at 10:38:21
Bromo33333
Audiophile

Posts: 3502
Location: Ipswich, MA
Joined: May 4, 2004
 "Perhaps we ought to start asking these questions of manufacturers [about what cables, sources, gear they use with their stuff]"

People can and do. Most manufacturers will avoid answering that question - or will do so in the most vague sort of way.

Thiel speaker are notorious for requiring a fair amount of power. They would never ever say anything that would be close to recommending an actual piece of gear - I suppose for a couple reasons - primarily is that it might have alienated those they didn't select.

They aren't too cautious about telling you whose wire they purchase, though. But they generally would stop short of making a cable recommendation.
====
"You are precisely as big as what you love and precisely as small as what you allow to annoy you." ~ R A Wilson

 

And at those shows..., posted on September 28, 2014 at 20:56:28
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...observe what speakers and electronics are used together.

 

RE: Cables used by manufacturers, posted on September 28, 2014 at 21:00:48
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...in over 15 years of reviewing, I can only think of one speaker manufacturer who was OCD enough to have a cable manufacturer and electronics manufacturer send me stuff to use with his speakers.

Then he bugged HP so much, his review and ads were cancelled.

The cable manufacturer sent me complete sets of his three lines of cables.

After listening to them all, I preferred the least expensive ones.

I sent them all to another TAS reviewer who preferred the same ones.

 

RE: Tighter connections..., posted on September 28, 2014 at 22:57:53
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46278
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 And under high current draw as can be experienced with high power amplifiers, loose connections can result in heat (due to IR drop across the loose connections) with the potential for fire.

The best connections in very high current demand scenarios, while at the same time minimizing audiophool cable tweaking hazards, is to use no connector at all but instead, a welded large gauge captive cable.

I'm talking about heavy gauge captive power cords as used on some high power amplifiers.


 

RE: Tighter connections..., posted on September 29, 2014 at 01:32:31
genungo
 A heavy gauge and well shielded captive cord would be a good thing.

It's nice to be able to remove a power cord before transporting a heavy amp from place to place however. A minor quibble perhaps, but worth considering...

 

Little secret...., posted on September 30, 2014 at 12:21:31
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 Any serious manufacturer knows it makes no difference. Seldom do they ever consider "Voicing" their product. It is kept top secret because they want to protect their dealers margins (do you know of any Amplifier company supplying their own cables as an independent product?)

Any decisions regarding power cords are determined by Physical characteristics. gauge, flexibility, durability. And Marketing, of course.


"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

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