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Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex)

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Posted on September 25, 2014 at 06:38:41
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
I was late to the " Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR" thread (linked below) but, while I have been a long-time Audiogon supporter and user, with many sales/buys and perfect feedback, I must agree with the original poster that perhaps they have indeed gone too far. Unfortunately, to me, most of this is unnecessary because they are trying to solve a problem of their own making. If they would simply charge their fees up-front, such as a flat listing fee based on the asking price, instead of their stupid transaction percentage after the sale, there would be no need for credit cards on-file, since they could have their money before providing services, for membership fees, blue book fees, listing fees, and whatever else they want to charge for. Problem solved.

I have serious concerns with their new "agreement" terms, including,

- Having your credit card on-file - while not a deal-breaker for me, this is a concern because, as some pointed out, they do not have the resources of ebay, PayPal or Amazon so our information is likely to be even less safe from hackers, etc.,
- I absolutely do not like having as part of their "agreement" that you allow them to charge your card whenever they feel like it, and I do not remember another site I have signed on to that allows that (maybe PayPal). If things went south, I would still have the ability to block the charge and fight it out through my credit card company, but that would be a big mess because of the terms of the agreement and could potentially cause credit rating issues as Audiogon would declare anyone disputing their charges to be delinquent in their payment.

Other "agreement" terms I don't like, include;
- charging their percentage based on the asking price, not the selling price since, in that case, they could simply charge up front and save the hassle,
- "that a transaction fee is owed upon acceptance of an offer," and not the conclusion of a transaction since we all know things can go bad, e.g., what if the buyer backs out after making their offer, do I have to relist and pay Audiogon again, which sucks since " transaction fees are nonrefundable,"
- "User will list only those items that you are offering for sale specifically at this website" - this is an interesting addition since it essentially means a seller cannot list an item on Audio Asylum if they list it on Audiogon, and this next item....
- "If it is discovered that User has conducted offsite activity related to your transaction listed through Site and/or completed your sale offsite, and a transaction fee is due," so...if you do in fact list an item on both Audiogon and Audio Asylum and your ad on Audio Asylum generates a sale, Audiogon is still going to charge your account the transaction fee, which of course, if you don't pay, or if you dispute when they deduct it from your credit card, you will have to fight it out with Audiogon, your credit card company/bank, and ultimately perhaps fight a bad credit rating when Audiogon declares you delinquent,
- it is amazing to me that they have an "online resolution process," but "Company reserves the right to refuse consideration of any disputes filed, or to terminate accounts in case of unreasonable refusal to respond to a dispute," ...in other words, you are welcome to complain but, instead of a resolution you may hear, "off with their heads!"
- by agreeing, you limit "Company's" liability, basically to the point where the user carries all the liability and they carry none, and finally...
- they can "assign this Agreement," by simply sending an email.

I get that Audiogon wants to protect themselves and make money but, even though I am a long-time user of their site, and have never had an incident of any kind either while trading or with Audiogon themselves, I will think hard before agreeing to their terms which, to me, at first look, seem to be a case of disparate bargaining power. Unfortunately, I actually feel compelled to consult an attorney before agreeing to their agreement.

If any of you disagree with my concerns regarding the user risks associated with their new agreement terms, and believe their agreement is not so bad, and is typical of other agreements we explicitly or tacitly agree to these days (like when you purchase an airline ticket and by purchasing and using the ticket you agree to the terms in the fine print) please weigh in with specifics as I am sure at least some here would be interested.

If there were ever a time for Audio Asylum to elevate its game with regards to the operation and appearance of Asylum Trader, now would be it. I am sure many would welcome reasonable fees if the terms were also reasonable.

Just my two cents.

 

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I agree, I wouldn't consent to their new rules., posted on September 25, 2014 at 06:43:04
Justlisten2
Audiophile

Posts: 1266
Location: SE PA
Joined: March 8, 2001
So I'm out. It was a fun 14 years, but F^ck Audiogon!!

 

Put 'Em In The Bread Line., posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:00:24
The beauty of free markets and capitalism is that the consumer can put the seller/vendor/proprietor in the bread line by doing one thing - don't use their service or buy their product.

That's it! Do that and they will go away like a fart in the wind.........




 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:01:24
They have always been of the type to take up the whole road and part of the grass also.

They like to play at interweb mogul.

Audiogon sucks.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:29:49
3ox
Audiophile

Posts: 2
Joined: September 25, 2014
A LONG time ago, Audiogon called themselves a "community". But when the site got going and potentially profitable, that all came to an end. I guess it was inevitable that someone would decide hey, we can monetize this. To be fair, the initial idea of fees may have been to maintain and improve the site and not to generate significant profits. But Agon's history since then has been ever increasing fees and encumbrances and less and less feeling of community.

Finally, we are to the point where Agon bases itself pretty much on the Ebay model. Interestingly, many members posted on Agon just to avoid that mentality. Well, direct access to members credit card/bank account/debit account or whatever strikes me as the final act in the rejection of the concept of community and user involvement. Let's face it, it's all strictly business now for sure!

The claim is the new policies are for "security", but that would appear to mean the security of their profits. I am sure they could have worked out better ways to screen potential members and help safeguard transactions, but this was the perfect excuse to access members assets directly.

I noticed that, just to log into my account, I would have had to agree to the new policies including submitting credit card info. So I guess I can't even delete my account if I want to!

At the end of the day, some may decide that acquiescing to Audiogon's demands may be worth it. Fine, everyone should make their own call based on their own read of the situation and the risks and benefits. But I'm sure some will leave for sites that are more like the Agon of old, here on AA elsewhere. Which may be the best gift Audiogon could have given us!

 

enough already!, posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:39:26
lokie
Audiophile

Posts: 1986
Location: Georgia, USA
Joined: January 28, 2003
"F^ck Audiogon!!"
OK… agree with the sentiments generally but like my Dad used to say- profanity demonstrates a lack of vocabulary and exhibits stupidity. Don’t always follow his advice but I try- especially in public.

"don't use their service or buy their product."
Best advice on this thread, but probably should be practiced personally not a futile public crusade.

"That's it! Do that and they will go away like a fart in the wind"
Be careful what you ask for… the probability of something better coming along is unlikely. And this comment smells like too much emotion involved in something you don’t control. The shorter you make that list the better for you and all those around you.

"Audiogon sucks."
OK. I agree, but like my audio system, it sucks less than everything else, which still makes it the best.

"do not have the resources of ebay, PayPal or Amazon"
Don’t they use Amazon’s e-enterprise software?

 

RE: Put 'Em In The Bread Line., posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:46:39
If you believe that you have a serious case of conformism or some such.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 25, 2014 at 07:55:05
I tried to ask a question to some seller this a.m. who used mystifying words (well to me at least...) and was asked to accept the terms, bla, bla, bla as a pre-condition.

And you have people here bemoaning the death of the"hobby".

All the manufacturers, magazines and websites want is your money and a whole magical world has been created to con people into thinking their social status and self-worth are tied up in a nifty record player.

Meanwhile back on Earth...

 

RE: Put 'Em In The Bread Line., posted on September 25, 2014 at 08:09:58
Almost sounds like you're an expert on farts in the wind.

 

I really thought it couldn't be from Audiogon ..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 08:25:06
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11686
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
... because of the misspellings and other proofreading goofs.

But I guess it's real, so ... bye, Audiogon.

 

A very thorough and well written post, thanks. , posted on September 25, 2014 at 08:26:30
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7954
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
Yes, this new setup is truly a 'screw you' to Agon customers.




'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

Conforming To What?, posted on September 25, 2014 at 08:33:46
Middleground;

Just what am I conforming to if I have as you state "a serious case of conformism"?

If anything I am NOT conforming by choosing to NOT do business with Audiogon.
If a proprietor of a business doesn't give me what I consider a good value, then I will move on and find one that will. It's quite simple; Poor service and poor value = no money. If that constitutes conformism in your mind so be it........








 

"Don't they use Amazon's e-enterprise software?", posted on September 25, 2014 at 09:14:49
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
I cannot answer that and I have not seen any further explanation or information from Audiogon to its members. If they do use the e-enterprise software, does that mean they have the same level of IT support and firewall protections? I am not well-versed in that area so others may be able to answer your question and what it means to the potential risks of using their site and new terms.

 

Agree, posted on September 25, 2014 at 09:32:40
Stale
Audiophile

Posts: 3263
Location: So. California
Joined: August 3, 2001
I was using AG but I am not giving them my CC number with "blanco" agreement that they can charge it whenever they feel like.

I am not sure where to go, but for well known brands I had success on Craigslist.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane."

 

I never bought or sold anything on A-gon..., posted on September 25, 2014 at 09:54:47
Dman
Audiophile

Posts: 7211
Location: Kansas
Joined: January 28, 2001
...but based on all the negative stuff I've heard here (and other 'sites) I don't think I'd ever take a chance with them now...



Dman
Analog Junkie

 

Good! Maybe these annoying posts will stop...(nt), posted on September 25, 2014 at 09:59:28
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
(nt)

 

Thanks for your insightful contribution...(nt), posted on September 25, 2014 at 10:11:39
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
.

 

the golden age, posted on September 25, 2014 at 10:29:33
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7954
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
Of buying and selling gear easily is coming to an end.

It was fun while it lasted.

I can remember ten years ago a buddy at work telling me about this wonderful webpage where you could buy something, try it, and if you don't like it sell it and loose hardly any money.

Good times.



'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Conforming To What?, posted on September 25, 2014 at 10:32:37
"The beauty of free markets and capitalism is that the consumer can put the seller/vendor/proprietor in the bread line".

That's the part that gets to me.

Like this is a self-regulating system and works first time every time right?

Conforming to a credo I guess...

 

first world problems - someone made a post I wasn't interested in. , posted on September 25, 2014 at 10:36:03
mbnx01
Audiophile

Posts: 7954
Location: Eagle, Idaho
Joined: October 22, 2004
The only annoying thing here is the 'I'm annoyed by this post' posts.

Seriously, why do people care? DO YOU READ EVERY SINGLE POST ON THE FORUM? I sure don't.

Tip of the day: If you're aren't interested in Agon posts DON'T READ THEM.










'A lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on'. -Mark Twain

 

RE: Conforming To What?, posted on September 25, 2014 at 11:09:29
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
I have heard it described as, "vote with your wallet," which is a benefit resulting from a free enterprise system.

The Audiogon issue is a typical business question of risk vs. reward. Some will probably not see the changes as a big deal. I have business competitors who will sign any onerous contract to land a job. Usually, there are no issues but every once in awhile something goes wrong and they have left themselves with little to no legal protection.

 

RE: first world problems - someone made a post I wasn't interested in. , posted on September 25, 2014 at 12:03:34
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
...my friend the high school teacher calls them "white girl problems".

 

{{Unfortunately, I actually feel compelled to consult an attorney before agreeing to their agreement.}} , posted on September 25, 2014 at 15:33:49
... Gosh!

Given you feel so compelled, please let us know the outcome of your consultation with an attorney.







 

Gee willikers...., posted on September 25, 2014 at 17:39:54
Justlisten2
Audiophile

Posts: 1266
Location: SE PA
Joined: March 8, 2001
....maybe one day I'll grow up and be just like your Dad. LOL!

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 25, 2014 at 19:59:14
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
"I tried to ask a question to some seller this a.m. who used mystifying words (well to me at least...) and was asked to accept the terms, bla, bla, bla as a pre-condition. "

Well it would seem their policy at least dissuades wingnuts from sending pestering emails to sellers.




 

dumb thing to post, posted on September 25, 2014 at 20:04:09
mitch2
Audiophile

Posts: 1521
Location: Great Lakes
Joined: August 28, 2001
Ok, good call three_sox, you got me, that was actually a dumb thing to post and comes from my being frustrated and pissed at them for their onerous agreement BS that shows a total distrust of their users/customers.

I have been trading and posting at that site for many years and I don't want to stop using the site, but I also don't want to give them access to a credit card that they can charge when they feel like it. Rock and a hard place.

I suppose I could dedicate a credit card solely for the purpose of Audiogon transactions, but I sure as hell will not give them anything they could use to access a bank account or the funds in my PayPal account.

 

RE: Gee willikers...., posted on September 25, 2014 at 20:08:07
+1...
Pretty funny.





 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 25, 2014 at 20:12:05
Flemke
Audiophile

Posts: 93
Location: Chicago
Joined: December 20, 2005
I think that is enough for me as well.
Tim

 

RE: enough already!, posted on September 25, 2014 at 20:31:24
I couldn't care less about Audiogon or those who make their living from it.

They send me emails periodically even though I closed my account with them over 3 years ago. Why do the do this? No idea - I just delete them.

"The probability of something better coming along is unlikely." Again; Who cares?

"Smells like too much emotion involved in something you don't control."

If anything I'm apathetic in that I couldn't care less for those that make their living from Audiogon. They could prosper or perish, I couldn't care less.

The sooner Audiogon goes away, the sooner the FU@% Audiogon posts will cease.

All I know is Audiogon will not profit a penny from me, and that I have total control over my friend. I feel a strong breeze.........












 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 28, 2014 at 04:25:27
No doubt coming from a member of Ford Nation, that is rich.

 

RE: Audiogon has FINALLY GONE TOO FAR (part duex), posted on September 28, 2014 at 15:49:44
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
Is that a First Nations thing? I'm not sure what you're talking about, I don't even live in Toronto, not even the GTA ... anyway you always seem to just babble, sry forgot I was ignoring you ;) oxo


 

RE: I agree, I wouldn't consent to their new rules., posted on September 28, 2014 at 19:51:12
Trouser Trout
Audiophile

Posts: 286
Location: New England
Joined: August 25, 2010
I just gave them a one time use CC number from my card company. Worked great.

 

RE: I agree, I wouldn't consent to their new rules., posted on September 28, 2014 at 20:23:04
c1ferrari
Audiophile

Posts: 640
Location: Southern California
Joined: March 16, 2001
I was/am reticent regarding the new TOS, so I declined log-in for a small while. Then, I considered should the solicitation for a credit card occur, I simply would not complete it. Thus far, no solicitations; albeit, A'gon may already possess some of my financial information :-(

Vbr,
Sam

 

RE: I agree, I wouldn't consent to their new rules., posted on April 16, 2016 at 09:23:25
Tsloan
Audiophile

Posts: 30
Location: New Mexico
Joined: June 15, 2005
Audiogon has changed for the worse. As soon as you 'accept' an offer - they kill your add and you are left in limbo waiting to be paid. They have no stated policy regarding when payment should be made. The seller could wait days; many have complained about the increase of deadbeats and tire kickers. Apparently, agon has never heard of 'sale pending.'

 

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